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Thread: Georgia passes new gun laws

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Because basically everyone becomes a moron after walking into a bar?
    I'd argue you are reversing causation, but I'm a teetotaler, so I may be showing my bias.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    Like, say pilots? Or air marshals? Or the police? Frankly if an airline wanted to allow legally capable civilians from doing so I wouldn't complain.
    You don't see a problem with allowing anyone who is legally carrying to bring their guns on a plane? Really? Is that what you honestly think?
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    Are you seriously claiming that is what you got from my post?

    I'm seriously claiming that people with concealed carry permits are less likely to commit homicides than police officers, and studies have borne out that concealed carry holders are on average more law abiding than average citizens. That tells me as a rule they go out of their way not to abuse the privilege. That means behaving responsibly with their firearm, especially when under the influence of mind altering substances.

    I'm also seriously claiming that other states that have allowed guns to be carried in bars have actually seen a decline in the number of firearms related crimes.
    You know, I'll take your word that generally speaking, concealed carrying people are more law abiding. But the bolded thing, that's simply wrong. The whole thing about mind altering substances is that, well, they alter your mind. Alcohol lubricates fights for a reason. Hint: it's not because it makes people more responsible. It raises testosterone levels, making people more aggressive. It makes you underestimate risks and consequences. Frankly, like with driving a car, the only responsible thing to do when drinking is not carrying. Because the problem is, drunk people will believe they are acting responsibly, while they aren't.
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  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    Then why not look at instances where similar laws have passed and look at their resulting impact on crime. There's a marked difference between feeling safer and actually being safer.

    It's interesting that you begin your argument by appealing to the wisdom of the people, and then in the very next breath say those same people should not be trusted.
    Firstly, I routed the wisdom of people who were having this kind of guns everywhere mentality as a part daily life for... Well since there were guns. To put it more to the point we have forgotten the reality of having guns everywhere.
    Secondly, people are a very unpredictable lot. Especially in large groups, and so are very hard to trust with deadly force. To be clear, I have no problem with responsible him ownership. But why can't you leave your rifle in the truck while you get a burrito?
    The worst job in the world is better than being broke and homeless

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    You don't see a problem with allowing anyone who is legally carrying to bring their guns on a plane? Really? Is that what you honestly think?
    I honestly think that if the owners of a plane think they can secure the flight, keep passengers safe, and allow them to carry they should be able to. The homicide rates by individuals who are legally carrying firearms are such that I'd have very little concern knowing there are CCW holders on board the plane with me.

    You know, I'll take your word that generally speaking, concealed carrying people are more law abiding. But the bolded thing, that's simply wrong. The whole thing about mind altering substances is that, well, they alter your mind. Alcohol lubricates fights for a reason. Hint: it's not because it makes people more responsible. It raises testosterone levels, making people more aggressive. It makes you underestimate risks and consequences. Frankly, like with driving a car, the only responsible thing to do when drinking is not carrying. Because the problem is, drunk people will believe they are acting responsibly, while they aren't.
    I think you are misunderstanding, or what is more likely is I wasn't doing a good job communicating my point. Behaving responsibly with a firearm means planning ahead, and that can mean leaving it at home if the situation dictates. Responsible gun ownership doesn't mean having it on you at all times, it means carrying it when you are capable of making good judgments. I hadn't intended to say that owning a gun somehow negates the effect of alcohol.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    You don't see a problem with allowing anyone who is legally carrying to bring their guns on a plane? Really? Is that what you honestly think?

    Hint: it's not because it makes people more responsible. It raises testosterone levels, making people more aggressive.
    Wait, what? No. Alcohol inhibits testosterone secretion. 's why tanked guys have trouble getting it up.

    It makes you underestimate risks and consequences. Frankly, like with driving a car, the only responsible thing to do when drinking is not carrying. Because the problem is, drunk people will believe they are acting responsibly, while they aren't.
    Underestimating risks and consequences is a possible consequence. But the primary reason for not driving is because it always impairs coordination and reaction time, and the pickled brain can't detect the problem.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    I honestly think that if the owners of a plane think they can secure the flight, keep passengers safe, and allow them to carry they should be able to. The homicide rates by individuals who are legally carrying firearms are such that I'd have very little concern knowing there are CCW holders on board the plane with me.

    I think you are misunderstanding, or what is more likely is I wasn't doing a good job communicating my point. Behaving responsibly with a firearm means planning ahead, and that can mean leaving it at home if the situation dictates. Responsible gun ownership doesn't mean having it on you at all times, it means carrying it when you are capable of making good judgments. I hadn't intended to say that owning a gun somehow negates the effect of alcohol.
    And you didn't understand my question about "property rights" vs "gun rights" and "state rights" to make laws. When Hazir mentioned open-carry guns in public places, and I asked about bringing guns into bars -- the gist was whose rights are trump. If a property owner can prohibit guns on their premises, does that mean frisking for concealed weapons is okay? And so on.

    Your philosophy seems to put all the choices, decisions, responsibilities, and liabilities into a property-owner's lap....including bars. But you don't explain how the details would work in practice, let alone see how police or EMS would be impacted. Particularly with open-carry, because customers or employees would naturally call 911 when people wearing long guns show up at a place of business.

    It sounds like you want all gun laws decided by states, and states would (ideally) let gun owners and property owners write those laws for "maximum liberties" of both. There are obvious problems and conflicts putting your philosophy into practice -- from crossing state lines to liability insurance to publicly-funded first responders. Even your private airplane scenario has loopholes, especially if a state has more stringent laws about guns entering their state.

    Libertarianism, in the form of privatization, can't be the answer to everything under the sun....and it won't necessarily lead to more individual liberties or freedoms, either. Since you're the one who thinks it can -- you'll have to be more specific, and explain why interstate commerce wouldn't become a complete mess if folks had to check hundreds of local "gun policies" before doing anything.

  7. #37
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    They already have to check into local laws WRT gun ownership.
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  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    They already have to check into local laws WRT gun ownership.
    What does that even mean? I could cross state lines to legally buy a gun and get all the proper permits....and return to my home state that has different laws. Making that an interstate federal felony doesn't make sense *without national laws* does it?

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    What does that even mean? I could cross state lines to legally buy a gun and get all the proper permits....and return to my home state that has different laws. Making that an interstate federal felony doesn't make sense *without national laws* does it?
    Well it's not an interstate felony. But not complying with the laws of the state you're in at the time is certainly a felony (or lesser crime, as applicable) within that jurisdiction. Pennsylvania doesn't have to acknowledge (and in actual fact, doesn't give a rat's ass) whether you have all the proper permits to own a gun in Virginia, they'll still arrest you if you're not in compliance with Pennsylvania law. I remember a case being cited on here some years ago, a guy from. . . New Jersey, I think it was. He had just moved from somewhere out west, as I recall, had a pistol packed away in the possessions being moved, and was arrested and convicted for not being in compliance with New Jersey's rather strict gun control laws while he was still in the process of transferring possessions into the new residence.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  10. #40
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Differnt towns have ordinances as well.
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