Rent in Expensive Cities

[Loki]

Michael and Melanie Bellanger Boyer, transplanted Parisians who live in a snug one-bedroom in the West 90s, are members of what social scientists sometimes call the “forgotten middle.”

Mr. Boyer, 29, earns $90,000 a year as a financial auditor. His wife, 31, earns $21,000 working at an animal shelter, where a modest salary is offset by generous benefits, a boon since the birth of a daughter, Nora, in January.

Last August, the couple moved to a 500-square-foot space for which the rent is $2,700. With such attractions as exposed brick, an ornately carved fireplace and a location just steps from Central Park, the apartment was the nicest and most affordable one they could find. But the hefty rent check they write every month takes an increasing toll...

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/01/re...partments.html

The NY Times keeps on running pieces like this, about how people can't afford to pay $3k a month rent in Manhattan (and of course the solution is usually to have more rent-stabilized housing, since that clearly is not responsible for the current problems!). I imagine the situation is similar in places like London, Geneva, and Oslo. But in New York, like in London, one can move 30 minutes out of the city center and pay a relatively high but affordable amount of rent for a good apartment. There are many neighborhoods half an hour by train from Manhattan where one can easily get a 1-bedroom apartment for significantly under $2k (or even $1.5k). I guess my question is why so many people in NYC and elsewhere are whining about going bankrupt when all they have to do is move 30 minutes away? Especially when we're not talking about partying youth who might really want to live near all the clubs, etc.

[Ominous Gamer]

In one of our older threads (9/11 related?) Dread argued up and down how ~1 mile is to great a distance.

[Loki]

Dread was in the partying youth group.

[Flixy]

If that's all it takes, they shouldn't complain. I can understand the complaining if you've lived somewhere your entire life but rents skyrocket and you can't stay in your familiar old place, but if, like the example, you move into an expensive fancy place (fireplace, next to central park, everything? I'd like to live there too ), then don't complain about the price, you chose it.

I assume the more affordable places are not in really shitty areas? I mean, in Paris I wouldn't want to live in the banlieus if I could avoid it, but I assume they have a middle ground, too.

[Loki]

If that's all it takes, they shouldn't complain. I can understand the complaining if you've lived somewhere your entire life but rents skyrocket and you can't stay in your familiar old place, but if, like the example, you move into an expensive fancy place (fireplace, next to central park, everything? I'd like to live there too ), then don't complain about the price, you chose it.

I assume the more affordable places are not in really shitty areas? I mean, in Paris I wouldn't want to live in the banlieus if I could avoid it, but I assume they have a middle ground, too.

No, the affordable areas are not in shitty areas, either in terms of crime levels, quality of schools, proximity to employment, etc. Basically, the only reason to live in the "nice" parts of Manhattan or the fancy parts of Brooklyn is so you could tell other people you live there. So every time I read these stories, I have to assume the people are some combination of uninformed, spoiled, or stupid. In southern Brooklyn, it's not hard to get a 1000 sq. foot apartment for $1400 a month. In the good parts of Manhattan (not the best parts mind you), that same apartment would cost $3-4k. From my limited experience in London, things work there more or less the same (except rent isn't quite as high in the good parts of centralish London). Are people that averse to taking the train for an extra half an hour?

I'm especially amused by the lady in the story who left Manhattan for Florida just so she could get a nice place for $1,340. I guess it would have been too much effort to move 10 miles east or southwest instead.

[RandBlade]

We had similar horror stories in the press when the government capped welfare including housing costs to the median household income of £26k (or $40k pre-tax to earn that, equivalent to the unemployed getting $67k US). Inevitably all in expensive areas where a few minutes commute would be much cheaper (not that the unemployed commute anyway). When it comes to work there is nothing wrong with commuting.

[Loki]

Yeah, I remember stories of councils buying multi-million pound houses for large poor families because apparently it's evil to have them move to a cheaper part of the city...

[Khendraja'aro]

Yeah, I remember stories of councils buying multi-million pound houses for large poor families because apparently it's evil to have them move to a cheaper part of the city...

Well, how exactly do you think slums are created? It's not exactly the greatest of ideas to create large areas inside a city solely consisting of low- or no-income families.

[RandBlade]

That's not the issue. The issue is that small areas of the city can be afforded only by the super-rich - so the simply rich, the middle and low income are all able to live together.

"Just steps from Central Park" is not large areas of New York and why middle income earners would expect to easily afford that without sacrifice is beyond me. If everyone with a middle income can afford to live just steps from Central Park then let me get a green card.

[Loki]

Well, how exactly do you think slums are created? It's not exactly the greatest of ideas to create large areas inside a city solely consisting of low- or no-income families.

Because the only two types of neighborhoods in large cities are those for the super poor and those for the super rich, right?

Two fun maps:

[RandBlade]

And how long is the commute from Brooklyn to Manhattan? Its not too bad IIRC and I imagine plenty do it everyday.

[Loki]

About 70-80 minutes from the southern-most point. Closer to 40 minutes from places like Bensonhurst, Dyker Heights, and Midwood. With a car, that time can be halved (depending on traffic), not that most people have cars.

I had to take a train for an hour to get to my job and my undergrad college. It wasn't really a big deal. In fact, I preferred it to the 40 minute bus ride/walking to my high school, which was a few miles away.

I also know that one can live on the outskirts of London and still take a train and/or tube to central London in under an hour.

[RandBlade]

An hours commute into London is not that big of a deal. With a Kindle or other devices its really not that big of a deal.

[Loki]

So any idea why so many people are bankrupting themselves just to live closer to the city center (especially when it entails getting a second job)?

[Illusions]

And how long is the commute from Brooklyn to Manhattan? Its not too bad IIRC and I imagine plenty do it everyday.

Some of the time Loki is quoting for the larger 70 - 80 minutes is probably waiting for train/bus connections or getting to them. With a direct route you could live in Nassau County and be in Penn Station in 45 - 60 minutes barring delays plus whatever extra time it takes to drive to your nearest LIRR train station. Although the downside is the $200 - $300+ per month cost of transportation.

[Ominous Gamer]

So for a couple, thats ~$600, which puts them in the under $2000 range loki referred to in the original post.

[Loki]

That's for living in Long Island. A monthly train pass is $112. And unless one is a hermit, one would need that even if one lived in Manhattan.

[GGT]

If that's all it takes, they shouldn't complain. I can understand the complaining if you've lived somewhere your entire life but rents skyrocket and you can't stay in your familiar old place, but if, like the example, you move into an expensive fancy place (fireplace, next to central park, everything? I'd like to live there too ), then don't complain about the price, you chose it.

Gentrification is a slow and gradual process that forces people to leave their neighborhoods, changes "working-class" areas into "high rent" areas. It also creates ex-urban sprawl, which leads to more infrastructure/public transportation and energy costs.

IMO, urban hubs shouldn't become like the gated-communities in 1950's era suburbia....where "the help" takes the bus (or train) to their low paying jobs, and back home again to "affordable" housing. Especially now, when we can't agree on who pays the taxes, or how to get the revenue, to fund that kind of infrastructure or public services.

[littlelolligagged]

That's for living in Long Island. A monthly train pass is $112. And unless one is a hermit, one would need that even if one lived in Manhattan.

Assuming a reasonable comparison, that works out to far less than the cost of gas for my fuel-efficient compact car in suburbia. And I'm near enough to being a hermit.

[Illusions]

So for a couple, thats ~$600, which puts them in the under $2000 range loki referred to in the original post.

It was more to point out that 30, or in Rand's case 60, minutes by train isn't just limited to Brooklyn.

Assuming a reasonable comparison, that works out to far less than the cost of gas for my fuel-efficient compact car in suburbia. And I'm near enough to being a hermit.

This gets you an unlimited monthly Metro card. You can ride the subway/bus system all you want in Manhattan, Queens, the Bronx, and Brooklyn, as well as the bus in Nassau County. Link

[littlelolligagged]

It was more to point out that 30, or in Rand's case 60, minutes by train isn't just limited to Brooklyn.

Here a 30 minute by car commute is considered good, I'm not sure why 30 (or 60) minutes by train would be bad.

[Illusions]

Here a 30 minute by car commute is considered good, I'm not sure why 30 (or 60) minutes by train would be bad.

Its not. I meant geographically you can live in other areas besides Brooklyn and still be in Manhattan within an hour if you wanted more suburbia.

[GGT]

Assuming a reasonable comparison, that works out to far less than the cost of gas for my fuel-efficient compact car in suburbia. And I'm near enough to being a hermit.

You traded your Jeep for a compact car? Sounds good. But metro-Atlanta doesn't have very good public transit, let alone Georgia at large....because it's considered "bad policy" to use public tax dollars to subsidize public services. How's the Freeee Market workin' out?

[Loki]

Here a 30 minute by car commute is considered good, I'm not sure why 30 (or 60) minutes by train would be bad.

Yeah, I believe the average commute for an American worker is over an hour (think of the western and northern states). Just reinforces my view that the people whining about these high rent costs are spoiled, stupid, and/or uninformed.

[GGT]

Commuting "times" shouldn't be lumped into one big ball.

[littlelolligagged]

It was more to point out that 30, or in Rand's case 60, minutes by train isn't just limited to Brooklyn.



This gets you an unlimited monthly Metro card. You can ride the subway/bus system all you want in Manhattan, Queens, the Bronx, and Brooklyn, as well as the bus in Nassau County. Link

That sounds to me like a really good idea. When I visited New Jersey/New York, I was pretty impressed with how well it worked.

You traded your Jeep for a compact car? Sounds good. But metro-Atlanta doesn't have very good public transit, let alone Georgia at large....because it's considered "bad policy" to use public tax dollars to subsidize public services. How's the Freeee Market workin' out?

I think I traded my jeep for the Nissan before we moved from Atari to here; at the very least it was before I personally moved ~4 years ago. The jeep was my ex's choice, not mine.

And yes, metro-Atlanta's transit is dreadful. My suburban county (everyone here knows it, because of my commentary on the evolution-sticker thing ages ago) is afraid that expanding MARTA or improving the county one will bring "undesirables" into the county. Still somehow we're about to have the Braves stadium - there aren't words for the nightmare that this will do to traffic as things are right now. I would personally choose mass transit over driving if it were at all convenient - the closest bus stop is the college, about 3 miles from my house (and there is no public parking there).

Yeah, I believe the average commute for an American worker is over an hour (think of the western and northern states). Just reinforces my view that the people whining about these high rent costs are spoiled, stupid, and/or uninformed.

I think here it is roughly 45 minutes each way on a good day. We're about 20 miles from Atlanta.

[GGT]

New Jersey and New York have a high degree of public transportation that other states don't.

[littlelolligagged]

I can't disagree, excellent public transportation is high on my list for considerations for relocation.

[Loki]

To be fair, you generally get the super-high rent costs in places with excellent public transport, probably because both correlate with high population density.

[littlelolligagged]

On the other hand - public transit is a sought-after amenity.