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Thread: What's messing with your Groove?

  1. #5281
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    @Wiggin : I don't think masks should be seen as replacement. But if there is a chance that a mask on your face keeps me a little bit safer, then I see no reason not to use them.

    @Loki : interestingly the people who wear them are benefitting the least.

    @Enoch: the notion that you need to be a professional to wear a facemask that essentially is there to protect others is mixing up the uses facemasks can have. If I get on the metro tomorrow I have to wear one. I do not have any illusions that it (medical grade surgical mask) is going to keep me safe.
    Trump: Lock him up.

  2. #5282
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    ...

    @Loki : interestingly the people who wear them are benefitting the least.

    Which is why people who refuse to wear them are selfish.
    .

  3. #5283
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Riiight. Cut the bullcrap. Seriously. What is this shit? First you moan about there being "probable risks" and then you can't be fucking arsed to back up this bullshit when prompted to? YOU MADE THE CLAIM, you support it.

    Otherwise I'm labelling you a fucking stupid wanker who thinks that this is a game.

    And don't give me the "oh, but we need to first prove its safe!" It's a fucking mask. Not botox. But please, tell me how we subjected our medicinal personell to a potentially dangerous intervention for decades now. You realize that those people had to wear masks for quite a while now. We've probably had a lot of them keeling over dead... oh, wait. We didn't. Big surprise.

    But sure, keep on riding your high horse. Jesus Christ. Next up: You're telling us that the mandate to dress decently is also a potential health hazard.
    Your hostility nonwithstanding, I'd point you to the literature on risk compensation, especially wrt vaccination (which is the most relevant comparator in widely studied literature). There isn't data on risk compensation wrt to SARS-CoV-2 for obvious reasons (as there isn't any good data on the benefits of cloth face masks), but I'd gladly support an RCT to find out!

    I agree with you the the personal risk associated with mask wearing is negligible for most people; outside of using a respirator, however, the personal benefit is also negligible (as is readily acknowledged by proponents of widespread cloth mask usage). The benefit and risk accrue to public health, driven by transmission reductions or increases as a result of the behavior changes that result from a mask wearing directive. It is not clear that this ends up being advantageous or not; the data simply don't exist.

    You're right that mask wearing has been widely used by healthcare practitioners in healthcare settings for a very long time. In fact, there are quite a lot of studies performed on infection control in healthcare settings, and appropriate choice and use of PPE is of critical importance as part of efforts to reduce the chance of nosocomial infection. However, the type of PPE used in a healthcare setting, the training of the healthcare practitioners, and a number of other controls work synergistically to improve efficacy - and even so, nosocomial infection remains a massive problem. In a very different, uncontrolled setting, with poor quality PPE and no trained users, it remains to be seen whether it is an effective intervention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The people I see wearing masks are the ones being cautious.
    Where I live, nearly everyone is wearing masks, with a wide variety of levels of sophistication and caution. And frankly, that's the scenario we're talking about - universal wearing of cloth masks. If it's only 'cautious' and conscientious people (whether this actually translates to good practices is another question), the magnitude of any benefit is likely to be much smaller.

    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    People who refuse to wear masks in public are selfish.
    I actually broadly agree with this. Even though I question the underlying science and wisdom of pursuing this intervention as a major pillar of the public health response, I believe that as a member of society, it is imperative upon everyone to follow the recommendations of public health authorities to the best of their ability - even if one is personally skeptical as to their efficacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    @Wiggin : I don't think masks should be seen as replacement. But if there is a chance that a mask on your face keeps me a little bit safer, then I see no reason not to use them.
    But what if there's a chance that a mask on my face actually endangers you? We simply don't know which is the case.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  4. #5284
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    I struggle to think of a scenario in which a mask on your face would increase the risk of infection for me.
    Trump: Lock him up.

  5. #5285
    I'm surprised you'd say that given what I've been saying for the last week. Let us imagine that someone who wears a mask has worse behavior such as: touching their face/mask/mucous membranes, less frequent handwashing, inadequate cleaning/reuse of masks, inattention to touching other surfaces, laxer social distancing (e.g. more close contacts than they would have in the counterfactual), etc. All of these things could potentially increase their probability of being a vector that would infect you.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  6. #5286
    Would it be fair to say that you're not against masks, but rather you're for a well-rounded education campaign about all the different safety measures people should take?

  7. #5287
    I'm not 'for' or 'against' masks. I am reminded about when I heard someone ask an engineer working at Exxon Mobil if he believed in climate change. His response was that it's not a matter of belief, but a matter of whether there is adequate evidence to support it. I don't have adequate information to support or oppose a universal mask order.

    I think that there is strong evidence that the use of well-fitted respirator masks by trained healthcare practitioners in a healthcare setting, with other appropriate PPE and procedures, is likely to reduce the chance of nosocomial transmission of SARS-CoV-2.

    I think that there is moderate evidence that the typical use of respirator masks by the general public may reduce the spread of SARS-CoV-2, especially to other household members and potentially reducing community transmission.

    I think that there is poor to moderate evidence that the typical use of surgical masks by the general public may reduce the spread of SARS-CoV-2 in a single household.

    I think there is very poor evidence that the typical use of cloth masks by the general public may reduce the communal spread of SARS-CoV-2.

    In this context of my understanding of the available evidence, I think that focusing a major public health intervention on the last of these is risky and that we need to get high quality data on this question ASAP.

    Sure, it is likely that we could improve the outcomes of cloth mask use by the public if we did a better job educating people about what they should be doing, both with mask use and with other measures. It's also likely that we could improve things by providing better PPE and training to the public, as availability allows, but that's frankly not feasible. The questions we need to ask ourselves are:

    1. Is the intervention we're planning likely to improve public health?
    2. Can we adjust our planned intervention to increase the chances of improving public health?
    3. How can we measure which intervention(s) are actually improving public health?

    To date I have seen very little thought going into any of these questions.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  8. #5288
    I thought that the graceful out I was offering you was particularly nicely wrapped. But alright, if you don't want it...

    You're being unreasonable about this. The bar you've set for supporting evidence is too high for it to be possible to meet it before the question becomes entirely moot. If everyone accepted your reasoning, then it will in fact become impossible to ever reach your bar.

    There is perfectly valid data and rational reasoning behind it. Sure, it probably won't be as effective in real world scenarios as it is in the lab, but it's unreasonable to believe that it's going to be totally useless. We know that its effectiveness at the societal level is going to be dependent on the participation rate, and it's kinda twisted that questions about participation rates are being used to support reducing them.

    I get your concerns about it being a distraction, that you're unsure of the efficacy of the masks and how they'll be used. That part is understandable, but consider what you're actually fighting against: the masks, on their own, costs us almost nothing. You've stated your concerns around the secondary indirect costs they might possibly incur, and these are what's motivating your opposition here, right? We don't have much evidence for the scale of these so it's an unknown how much of an impact it will actually sum to, but I'll agree that it's almost certainly non-zero, and this gives us sufficient justification to try to control these costs.

    My problem here is that I think that you're getting hung up on the wrong means of controlling the unknown parts of the cost. You're supporting (by accident or intent) a destructive solution when a constructive alternative exists. The way you're going about this is sabotaging the potential effectiveness of the masks, when you could just sabotage those costs you're concerned about instead. I'd like to make a suggestion for a change in tactics - instead of harping on the incomplete evidence in favor of the masks, why not harp on the importance of the other measures? Redundancy is good, and you'll probably get a lot less push-back if, when the subject of masks comes up, you focus on emphasizing the importance of social distancing and staying home when you're sick and everything else. You can even still tell people that the masks are unreliable - that much is uncontroversial, the masks have always been meant as an additive safety measure and should not be the sole safety measure.

    If you need more, consider the outcomes if we make the wrong choice about advocating for masks: If everyone wears masks but they turn out to be completely ineffective at controlling covid-19, then our mistake didn't really cost us much and we still slowed down a bunch of other bacterial and viral diseases, so it still might work out to a win. If nobody wears masks but it would have maintained even a small portion of its laboratory effectiveness, then our mistake killed a whole bunch of people and handed the virus more opportunities to acquire dangerous mutations. Wouldn't you rather make the first mistake?

    This is really just a long-winded way of offering you the same out again, though I'm afraid it's not as prettily wrapped this time. You don't need to voice support for masks, just don't get in the way of that effort, and maybe wear a mask in public when you can as a trivial token of cooperation. Advocate for alternative measures, advocate for not relying solely on masks, remind people that wearing a mask isn't about protecting yourself - that's all fine. Just please, don't provide excuses for people not to cooperate with public safety efforts, and for the love of god don't let any mask discussions become political.

  9. #5289
    Wraith, I appreciate what you're doing and I broadly agree with your approach. Perhaps I have not appropriately represented my views here. I don't make a habit of denouncing the cloth mask directives as based on extremely thin science or argue that it's a waste of time; frankly, the topic IRL has come up precisely once and I was talking to someone who already agreed with my assessment of the evidence. I certainly don't go outside my home without a mask. And my distaste for the far right's bullshit about the lockdowns and associated public health measures is hard to overstate.

    I'm really only using this forum, here, to register my discomfort with how badly supported this particular public health intervention is, and my concern that it may in fact be counterproductive. It ties in with the absolutely stunning (to my mind) shift in the holier than thou people I see on social media who tout mask wearing as this central plank of fighting this pandemic, and judging anyone who dares to question this narrative (when literally back in February these same people were citing the WHO's wisdom that face masks weren't helpful, as if they ever read the WHO's guidance on the issue). These are the same people who always argue about trusting in the 'science' on nearly any issue when they almost universally wouldn't understand the science if they had bothered to look it up. It's groupthink, and it's dangerous.

    I am also concerned that policymakers (not just the public) are using face coverings as a substitute for longer restrictions on economic activity, which IMO is extremely dangerous and short-sighted. My state is relatively slow on the reopening, but we're still moving way too quickly and the guidelines are too reliant on face coverings to stem further transmission.

    By all means, we should focus on other measures to limit transmission, coupled with education (as much as is possible) on the correct way to use PPE. And I'm not actually advocating that we not encourage face masks (remember, this all started when I just said that they weren't likely to be very effective, not that we shouldn't wear them). I just want there to be actual evidence, rather than a chain of supposition. Let us imagine that some thoughtful person had started a RCT back in March or April in a US hotspot on the use of face masks. By now we'd have our first inklings of the direction and magnitude of the effect. If the effect was positive and large, hurray! Now we have concrete evidence that masks can partially substitute for other, more economically damaging interventions. If the effect is positive but small, we can factor that into our decisions and messaging too. And if the effect is negative, we can either fix the problems or withdraw the directive.

    Right now, though, it's a major part of everyone's plan to manage SARS-CoV-2 transmission for the foreseeable future, but we're making decisions blindly. If we didn't do it in March or April, let's do it now; maybe it will help us out for this pandemic, or maybe the information will be valuable in the future. But let's not wave around a bunch of poor quality inconclusive data and say, 'welp, it's probably better than nothing!'. By all means, issue a mask directive, but make it better.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  10. #5290
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    I'm surprised you'd say that given what I've been saying for the last week. Let us imagine that someone who wears a mask has worse behavior such as: touching their face/mask/mucous membranes, less frequent handwashing, inadequate cleaning/reuse of masks, inattention to touching other surfaces, laxer social distancing (e.g. more close contacts than they would have in the counterfactual), etc. All of these things could potentially increase their probability of being a vector that would infect you.
    But the mask itself in all those instances doesn’t add to my risk.
    Trump: Lock him up.

  11. #5291
    So what? The mask causes a change in behavior which increases your risk. But I don't really care to pursue this semantic argument.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  12. #5292
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    After 25 yrs...getting divorced...sigh.

    My soon to be ex notified me in December that he was seeing someone else. I've been working through it in my pros/cons thought process, and still been rough.

    There is a lot of detail you want to and don't want to know at the same time. Needless to say, the process has been amicable so far and we are almost done.

    Thank the gods I took a new job before this all happened and have the financial means to make this work for me and the boys, who will be staying with me so they can stay in the same school district.
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  13. #5293
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    After 25 yrs...getting divorced...sigh.

    My soon to be ex notified me in December that he was seeing someone else. I've been working through it in my pros/cons thought process, and still been rough.

    There is a lot of detail you want to and don't want to know at the same time. Needless to say, the process has been amicable so far and we are almost done.

    Thank the gods I took a new job before this all happened and have the financial means to make this work for me and the boys, who will be staying with me so they can stay in the same school district.
    I'm so sorry to hear that Veldan. I hope that things go well for you, and that your kids are able to cope. Will he still be a part of their life?

  14. #5294
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Wiggin: This person probably knows quite a bit more than you about that matter...

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...s-coronavirus#

    Public health experts like me know the only conclusive trial of masks will come from them being rolled out in the real world
    The "dearth of data" you so whiningly complain about, coupled with your attitude of "we need all the facts first!" is a catch-22. But I don't really expect you to understand this.

    There are no randomised controlled trials in community settings, for example, of handwashing,
    Yeah, let's wait until we have reliable data on the non-lethality of handwashing. I mean, my skin has gotten terribly dry lately...
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  15. #5295
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    I'm so sorry to hear that Veldan. I hope that things go well for you, and that your kids are able to cope. Will he still be a part of their life?
    I appreciate that Enoch.

    Yes, he intends to visit every week and he’s been alternating a bit taking them to his new digs.
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  16. #5296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    After 25 yrs...getting divorced...sigh.

    My soon to be ex notified me in December that he was seeing someone else. I've been working through it in my pros/cons thought process, and still been rough.

    There is a lot of detail you want to and don't want to know at the same time. Needless to say, the process has been amicable so far and we are almost done.

    Thank the gods I took a new job before this all happened and have the financial means to make this work for me and the boys, who will be staying with me so they can stay in the same school district.
    Sorry to hear that. I hope you have someone to talk with.
    Trump: Lock him up.

  17. #5297
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    After 25 yrs...getting divorced...sigh.

    My soon to be ex notified me in December that he was seeing someone else. I've been working through it in my pros/cons thought process, and still been rough.

    There is a lot of detail you want to and don't want to know at the same time. Needless to say, the process has been amicable so far and we are almost done.

    Thank the gods I took a new job before this all happened and have the financial means to make this work for me and the boys, who will be staying with me so they can stay in the same school district.
    Sorry to hear Take care
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  18. #5298
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    After 25 yrs...getting divorced...sigh.

    My soon to be ex notified me in December that he was seeing someone else. I've been working through it in my pros/cons thought process, and still been rough.

    There is a lot of detail you want to and don't want to know at the same time. Needless to say, the process has been amicable so far and we are almost done.

    Thank the gods I took a new job before this all happened and have the financial means to make this work for me and the boys, who will be staying with me so they can stay in the same school district.
    Life really sucks sometime. I hope you find a way to get through this, even if it's going to hurt for a lot of time. And like the people above said, find someone to talk to.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  19. #5299
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    I certainly don't go outside my home without a mask.
    So everything you said after that is moot. The nations that wear masks have fared better than those who don't. It's a stop-gap measure until we have therapeutics or a vaccine, but it's not acting "blindly". tsk tsk

  20. #5300
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    After 25 yrs...getting divorced...sigh.

    My soon to be ex notified me in December that he was seeing someone else. I've been working through it in my pros/cons thought process, and still been rough.

    There is a lot of detail you want to and don't want to know at the same time. Needless to say, the process has been amicable so far and we are almost done.

    Thank the gods I took a new job before this all happened and have the financial means to make this work for me and the boys, who will be staying with me so they can stay in the same school district.
    Sorry to hear that, Veldan. Divorce is harder than death, especially when kids are involved. Hang in there. Talking about it can be a great first step.

  21. #5301
    Haven't had cell service for most of the day. Feels like I'm back in high school.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  22. #5302
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Sorry to hear that. I hope you have someone to talk with.
    Thank you Hazir, and everyone else.

    My friends here in Maine have been very supportive and keeping me sane.

    ‘Dating’ apps have been a mixed bag...
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

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