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Thread: House Democrats ban earmark spending for profit-based companies

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post

    In this modern 21st century we should move to a "Google democracy". Put all non-secret governmental spending online in a database that can be mined and researched. Any pork/waste can be identified by groups/journalists/bloggers and rather than lobbying spending up it can be lobbied publicly down instead. Or to better causes. Accounts need to be done, receipts need to be submitted, why not put them online?
    I agree it should all be on-line and searchable. How much, who requested it, what for, how was it spent, etc. But note, likley the biggest waste in the government is in stuff you can't see that way - the innate inefficiencies of the beuaracracy...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Well, the issue is that earmarks are when congress directs money to specific programs or projects, instead of lump sums to federal agencies controlled by the president. There is a certain balance-of-power I can appreciate with the idea that congress can specifically direct funds to certain important projects. The President shouldn't have exclusive power over how money is spent.

    But in practice it's usually just a handout spree and really just part of the problem. After all, allegedly earmarks only cost about $20 billion a year.

    I think the deeper problem is the idea that members of Congress can basically micromanage budgets around its own ideological prerogatives, which in turn means members of Congress start horse trading on budget issues and ignore bigger issues like the US' massive entitlement spending gap.
    I agree here too. But I think the biggest problem is with the potential for quid pro quo type corruption. You gave my campaign money and boots on the ground, I give your company fat contracts in return...
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  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I don't see why any earmarks are necessary. Anything done with earmarked money can be done with the same money just not earmarked. For-profit companies can be the best and most competitive to expend your money on - but why shouldn't they face competition then?

    In this modern 21st century we should move to a "Google democracy". Put all non-secret governmental spending online in a database that can be mined and researched. Any pork/waste can be identified by groups/journalists/bloggers and rather than lobbying spending up it can be lobbied publicly down instead. Or to better causes. Accounts need to be done, receipts need to be submitted, why not put them online?

    More free information will fix the problem more than more bureaucracy or hoops. Maybe "Linux democracy" would be a better term.
    Would this kind of society need to make Internet access a basic human right

    In your opinion
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  3. #33
    EyeKhan, I suspect that in a Google Democracy as I described it is the inefficiencies of bureaucracy that will be most improved - stupid waste, not corrupt waste.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Would this kind of society need to make Internet access a basic human right

    In your opinion
    How do you define that?

    I view the right to free expression as a fundamental human right, but that doesn't mean that I have a right to a TV Station. The government shouldn't control the internet (besides regular legal issues eg child porn etc), nor deny anyone the right to get it. But it doesn't mean the government should pay for every home to have access to it.

    So in a capitalist way: Yes

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    So in a capitalist way: Yes


    I love that pre-amble.

    But fair enough!

    Would public libraries with free Intertubes access be capitalist under your definition?

    I'm just asking these questions because, as these things are wont, the Google system you propose could potentially lead to a situation where access to the information channels would separate the population. Influence-wise. Just like money does today. I suppose there really aren't enough checks and balances to prevent some kind of diffusion of power in any system, though.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    EyeKhan, I suspect that in a Google Democracy as I described it is the inefficiencies of bureaucracy that will be most improved - stupid waste, not corrupt waste. How do you define that?

    I view the right to free expression as a fundamental human right, but that doesn't mean that I have a right to a TV Station. The government shouldn't control the internet (besides regular legal issues eg child porn etc), nor deny anyone the right to get it. But it doesn't mean the government should pay for every home to have access to it.

    So in a capitalist way: Yes
    Because you are regular?
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post


    I love that pre-amble.

    But fair enough!

    Would public libraries with free Intertubes access be capitalist under your definition?
    No. I agree.
    I'm just asking these questions because, as these things are wont, the Google system you propose could potentially lead to a situation where access to the information channels would separate the population. Influence-wise. Just like money does today. I suppose there really aren't enough checks and balances to prevent some kind of diffusion of power in any system, though.
    I don't think that people who can't afford the internet won't be the sort of individuals who will be micro-analysing governmental expenditure looking for wasteful spending anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Being
    Because you are regular?
    Yes.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I don't think that people who can't afford the internet won't be the sort of individuals who will be micro-analysing governmental expenditure looking for wasteful spending anyway.
    I'm not sure that's true!

    I know crazy anecdote olol, but I'm familiar with cases of some rather bright people with an education and a semi-cerebral job (say a librarian), who're very interested in their community, who had to declare personal bankruptcy due to some sudden illness like appendicitis, in the US. In fact I believe medical expenses are the number one cause of filing for personal bankruptcy in the US! Naturally there are ways to recover from said financial catastrophes, but I wouldn't go around willy-nilly saying everyone who cannot afford an Intertrons connection is a worthless hobo unfit to vote or breed.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    I'm not sure that's true!

    I know crazy anecdote olol, but I'm familiar with cases of some rather bright people with an education and a semi-cerebral job (say a librarian), who're very interested in their community, who had to declare personal bankruptcy due to some sudden illness like appendicitis, in the US. In fact I believe medical expenses are the number one cause of filing for personal bankruptcy in the US! Naturally there are ways to recover from said financial catastrophes, but I wouldn't go around willy-nilly saying everyone who cannot afford an Intertrons connection is a worthless hobo unfit to vote or breed.
    Neither voting nor breeding have any bearing or relation on governmental expenditure being listed online. It is just the spending of the MONEY that I am refering to. MONEY MONEY MONEY.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Neither voting nor breeding have any bearing or relation on governmental expenditure being listed online. It is just the spending of the MONEY that I am refering to. MONEY MONEY MONEY.
    And the biggest reason to make that information transparent is to help people decide whom to support by their vote, nyet?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  10. #40
    Arguably, medical costs in the US would go down if there was more transparency and choice when it came to medical costs.

  11. #41
    Crypto-fascists!

    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Arguably, medical costs in the US would go down if there was more transparency and choice when it came to medical costs.
    Having a ton of choices doesn't fix anything. It confuses people, makes them less likely to participate in voluntary programs, and makes it easier to defraud them.
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  13. #43
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Having a ton of choices doesn't fix anything. It confuses people, makes them less likely to participate in voluntary programs, and makes it easier to defraud them.
    what

  14. #44
    You have to be able to compare alternatives using reliable and fairly objective standards, and you have to be able to choose good alternatives
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    You have to be able to compare alternatives using reliable and fairly objective standards, and you have to be able to choose good alternatives
    Now, I'm pretty sure you are not actually saying it, but this sounds like you and EK are saying that choice is bad.

  16. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    what
    Look at the research into 401k plans. Companies that provide the most choices for their employees have the least participation rates. People don't have time to become experts in investments and insurance. We need a simple plan that meets our needs. Not tons of complexity in a buyer beware marketplace.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  17. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Now, I'm pretty sure you are not actually saying it, but this sounds like you and EK are saying that choice is bad.
    I'm saying that it's not necessarily better for healthcare providers and patients to have more alternatives to choose from.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Look at the research into 401k plans. Companies that provide the most choices for their employees have the least participation rates. People don't have time to become experts in investments and insurance. We need a simple plan that meets our needs. Not tons of complexity in a buyer beware marketplace.
    Ummm, that's their problem. Don't limit MY choice because you (not YOU specifically) are too lazy to either do the research, ask for input, or take responsibility for your decisions. I don't need to be protected from myself thank you.

    For 401k, I'm no expert, so I make sure that is spread the love in distrubution of the funds (and not dogpile into just the company stock...a la Enron). If you let the company choose your 401k you are just BEGGING for a screwing.

    and I have a ROTH IRA. Based upon your logic...who should have decided how that investment should be set up if NOT me?


    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I'm saying that it's not necessarily better for healthcare providers and patients to have more alternatives to choose from.
    Nor is it necessarily worse. There are 2 major hospitals near me...practically right next to each other. If I need an appendectomy, and one charges less...that would be nice to know.

  19. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Ummm, that's their problem. Don't limit MY choice because you (not YOU specifically) are too lazy to either do the research, ask for input, or take responsibility for your decisions. I don't need to be protected from myself thank you.
    That's great. I'm glad you have so much time to do all that research and become an expert in all those subjects. Unfortunately the reality for most Americans is totally different. But you're not concerned with reality, you're concerned with the ideals of markets and freedoms and lots of choices. Keep on ignoring the concept of what makes sense and what works well and instead embrace the ideal that works in practice as a mine field for people to trip up and so insurance campanies can fleece us and keep playing gotcha when you need medical care. Yay for Kapitalizm!

    For 401k, I'm no expert, so I make sure that is spread the love in distrubution of the funds (and not dogpile into just the company stock...a la Enron). If you let the company choose your 401k you are just BEGGING for a screwing.
    I didn't say anything about letting the company choose.

    and I have a ROTH IRA. Based upon your logic...who should have decided how that investment should be set up if NOT me?
    By my logic your retirement plan choices should be limited to a few simple options tailored to where you are in your life. Something like this: youth, early career, mid-life, pre-retirement, retired. Maybe have a few risk levels in each. And with an option to opt out altogether, though I'm not sure that's wise. What is in each category would be designed by an independant panel of personal finance experts who don't have conflicts of interest. Done.

    As far as medical care is concerned, there shouldn't be any 'options' at all. When I get sick or injured, my medical care should be covered. Done.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  20. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Nor is it necessarily worse. There are 2 major hospitals near me...practically right next to each other. If I need an appendectomy, and one charges less...that would be nice to know.
    Of course, I agree. And it'd be even better to know that the outcomes are comparable. But what if one hospital charges more and you have no idea how it compares to the other hospital? And there's this brochure listing all the extra stuff that you get at the more expensive hospital, only you don't know how much that stuff is actually worth...

    Anyway if you need an emergency appendectomy ffs go to the nearest hospital and pray you get timely care
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    That's great. I'm glad you have so much time to do all that research and become an expert in all those subjects. Unfortunately the reality for most Americans is totally different. But you're not concerned with reality, you're concerned with the ideals of markets and freedoms and lots of choices. Keep on ignoring the concept of what makes sense and what works well and instead embrace the ideal that works in practice as a mine field for people to trip up and so insurance campanies can fleece us and keep playing gotcha when you need medical care. Yay for Kapitalizm!

    I didn't say anything about letting the company choose.

    By my logic your retirement plan choices should be limited to a few simple options tailored to where you are in your life. Something like this: youth, early career, mid-life, pre-retirement, retired. Maybe have a few risk levels in each. And with an option to opt out altogether, though I'm not sure that's wise. What is in each category would be designed by an independant panel of personal finance experts who don't have conflicts of interest. Done.
    .
    I'm so happy you think you should get to decide what my options for funding my retirement should be!

    And who panels (as in puts them there) this 'independent' group of 'experts'?

  22. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    And who panels this 'independent' group of 'experts'?
    Believe it or not, it is possible to have a society that isn't totally corrupt. It is possible to have an open process where honest people do the work and other honest people peer-review it for irregularities. America doesn't have to be a corrupt cess pool where since the only one you can trust is yourself then you have to be expert in all things and if you don't have time or ability to be that expert, well then that's just tough.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Believe it or not, it is possible to have a society that isn't totally corrupt. It is possible to have an open process where honest people do the work and other honest people peer-review it for irregularities. America doesn't have to be a corrupt cess pool where since the only one you can trust is yourself then you have to be expert in all things and if you don't have time or ability to be that expert, well then that's just tough.
    Yes it is possible.

    But please answer the question, who picks the panel? And under what authority?

    Or

    I'll come halfway. For those poor slobs incapable of making their own decisions, they can go to that panel, and a portion of their retirement can go to funding it.

    Let me do my own thing.

  24. #54
    Veldan, who chose the components in your Roth IRA?


    Did you know you can't always get prices from providers in order to compare, because they've signed gag agreements with their biggest participating insurers, who bargained for their special rates? Also, use a better example of your personal choice than an emergency appendectomy.

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Veldan, who chose the components in your Roth IRA?


    Did you know you can't always get prices from providers in order to compare, because they've signed gag agreements with their biggest participating insurers, who bargained for their special rates? Also, use a better example of your personal choice than an emergency appendectomy.
    I chose what to invest in. Granted, the options I was presented with were provided by the firm that I went with.

    If unhappy with those choices, I could have taken my muny elsewhere.


    WRT to the medical issues, gag agreements strike me as unethical/illegal somehow, and should be a no no.

    An emergency appendectomy was not my example...there are such things as non emergency...but I'll concede the point.

    8 years ago, I has a single nerve cell growth removed from my right ring finger (cool zig zag scar!). Granted, there may not have been a lot of choices on where to go due to the nature of my boo boo, but even if there were only 2 or 3 in a 50 mile radius...prices would be good to know!

  26. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    I chose what to invest in. Granted, the options I was presented with were provided by the firm that I went with.
    That was my only point about your choices; they come with a default position, which is what Kahn endorses.




    WRT to the medical issues, gag agreements strike me as unethical/illegal somehow, and should be a no no.
    Ah, but they're perfectly legal and practiced every day. Anyone with employer group insurance gets the benefits of this kind of price bargain guarantee, and you don't even have to be in a PPO. Most providers agree (legally) NOT to charge the group insured for the reimbursement short-fall. Self-insured and self-pay have no such perk. Enter the medical bankruptcies.

    An emergency appendectomy was not my example...there are such things as non emergency...but I'll concede the point.

    8 years ago, I has a single nerve cell growth removed from my right ring finger (cool zig zag scar!). Granted, there may not have been a lot of choices on where to go due to the nature of my boo boo, but even if there were only 2 or 3 in a 50 mile radius...prices would be good to know!
    Elective procedure. Still, this price shopping you refer to is a myth. Just try it. Phone up a few providers and ask their "rates". It's third party dependent. You can find out the Medicare reimbursement rate, which is usually the lowest. But they won't give it to you if you're not enrolled in Medicare.

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    That was my only point about your choices; they come with a default position, which is what Kahn endorses.
    No, the firm had multiple options, and I still had to choose which ones I wanted out of those options. If they were all 'high risk' I would have walked. However they had a nice grab bag of choices. I chose a mix of slow steady growth, intermediate growth and slightly higher risk growth. I could have taken all of the risky ones or all of the slow growth ones.

    And I have a sneaking suspicion that is NOT what Khan endorses. He said an Independent Panel...he just has yet to say who chooses this panel.

  28. #58
    OK, will let you and chakakhan bicker about that.

    IMO Bills should be devoid earmarks in general, non-profit or for-profit. But it's been done for so long, I don't have any faith they'll stop. It will just be a new loophole with a different name.

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    OK, will let you and chakakhan bicker about that.

    IMO Bills should be devoid earmarks in general, non-profit or for-profit. But it's been done for so long, I don't have any faith they'll stop. It will just be a new loophole with a different name.
    Okay

    And I agree with the above as well.

  30. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    But please answer the question, who picks the panel? And under what authority?
    I'll pick it. Under the authority of god. Work for you? I'm not an expert in these things, but I've heard some people are. So lets let them make the policy, 'kay? Maybe the same people you trust to run the mutual funds you invest in through your 401k can be trusted to group those funds into risk brackets that a group of fee-only financial planners can recommend for various age groups. Would that work for you, seeing that you're already trusting half of them?

    Let me do my own thing.
    Unfortunately for you, you live in a community, you're a citizen of a nation, and you therefore can't always do your own thing. Maybe if you get a cabin in the mountains somewhere....
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

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