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Thread: The Decline and Fall of Democracy and Personal Freedom

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    Default [Article] The Decline and Fall of Democracy and Personal Freedom

    The Decline and Fall of Democracy and Personal Freedom

    Hypothesis: Democracy and personal freedom may have to be increasingly limited in the near to moderate term if human civilization is to survive in the long term.

    The term democracy, often used with the adulation and respect reserved only for gods and the dead, is lovingly linked in Western culture with the meme of personal freedom and indeed each enables the other in a lot of ways. As government is at its heart in the business of limiting personal freedom, democracy is, in ideal form, the style of government with the least limit of that freedom humanity has yet devised. But, of course, a quick check of how ‘democratic’ governments actually work shows the ideal democracy isn't used anywhere. I think we all know why – the fickle, inexpert, easily manipulated and often tyrannical whims of the typical human are no basis for sensible government. That is, most people can't be free enough to govern themselves because they would likely screw it up, or at a minimum run afoul of their neighbor, which is the whole basis for needing a government in the first place. So instead we use elected representative government with divided, mutually checked powers administrated by professional bureaucracies. And with this form of government for the last few centuries we’ve steadily loosened the social bindings our culture places on its individuals, resulting in the current time of more personal freedom for more people than at any other since people were first ruled by government (citation needed J ). But this system of government, and the freedom we've granted ourselves with it, have their own problems, both the time-honored and the frighteningly new. And these newer problems threaten to challenge the future of human civilization itself unless the freedom that enables them is rolled back.

    Globalization is one chief culprit in the threat against freedom. The Information Revolution is another. And the general growth of our technological power is a third. To take the first, the mixing of the world's cultures has created great economic and social friction and has cross pollinated memes that have grown into the horrors of planes flying into buildings, of suicide bombers blowing up funerals for victims of other suicide bombers, and of the occasional precision guided bomb blowing up a gun popping wedding party. A (relatively) free culture works very well when everyone living in it is bound by memes of conduct letting most people live in relative safety, and when the 'other' is kept outside. By safety I mean from crime but also from other forces the individual cannot protect himself from, such as product safety, workplace hazards, environmental ills, and all the personal threats that regulation of economic activity and social interaction are designed to mitigate. But globalization exposes free cultures to the 'other,’ to toxic, infectious or alien memes for conduct that would exploit a culture’s freedom for advantage in the struggles globalization inevitably breeds.

    The Information Revolution threatens us in at least two ways. The first is very straight forward. Knowledge is power and those willing to kill, and die, for a cause, and who are resourceful to begin with, become all the more dangerous with access to more knowledge. The internet offers the 'how-to' resources, communication tools, and intelligence sources that enormously empower the 'bad guy' to do harm.

    Second, the internet has fractured, and continues to fracture, the news sources with which free-ish peoples inform themselves and their free-ish actions. Not long ago the news outlets were comparatively few and fairly easily held accountable to standards of quality and responsibility. Today 'news' sources are multiplying every day and their quality, integrity, and motives are often difficult to divine and beyond redemption. Many highly focused, yet myopic, agenda-driven political editorial outlets masquerade as objective news outlets. Dozens echo each other, lending ideas and claims that a generation ago would have been quickly dismissed by most as outlandish, the appearance of fact and legitimacy. And given the nature of humanity, our craving to see information that we already agree with, our thirst for the outrageous and the inflammatory, this new ability to keep to only these kinds of sources, and in great and satisfying volume and variety, is devastating for a political system that requires voters to be at least somewhat objectively informed in order to function properly.

    Humanity is easily manipulated, by virtue of our basic nature, and modern media, especially the internet, is ideally suited for manipulating. With the onset of the Information Age, and with the broad freedom to use its tools at the basest level of integrity, we corrupt, polarize and geld the government's ability to perform its most basic functions. When the governmental system based on freedom can no longer function because of the underlying culture's personal freedoms, then the system either must slough off some of those freedoms, or face failure in even more severe ways.

    Lastly there is the growth of technological power. If I were to discuss the super flu, gray goo, or the terminator, you might reflexively dismiss this line of thought as science fiction. But consider another genre of fiction that found its way into reality. Before Al Quaida flew planes into the World Trade Center under the leadership of the arch-villain Osama bin Laden, the idea of a super wealthy, super powerful international criminal organization that could threaten the international community remained safely tucked away in James Bond fiction. But now we have those once fictional villains, though unfortunately not the James Bonds to counter them.

    Consider what might have happened had Osama been less technologically restricted by his own hyper-religious culture. He at one point had enormous wealth; what if he had invested in biotechnology, founded a company, thriving or otherwise, in the United States with access to the most cutting edge technology? And what if he siphoned that technology and expertise into, say, secretly weaponizing virus' and then unleashed them on the West for a 12 Monkeys style disaster? Is that so far fetched? Consider we've been tailoring virus' in the laboratory for gene therapy for over a decade. Which of these labs couldn’t instead tailor pathogens?

    What other technologies are out there, freely available to corporate America and like entities in our globalization economic partners, that might be taken advantage of by an innovative and driven nut job? Gray goo's the best of the best. But that's not even particularly imaginative these days. I'm sure there are enormous dangers right in front of our faces that we would never consider until the metaphorical second plane hits the second tower. Then of course, it's past too late. If you consider that the first priority of any government is to take reasonable measures to protect its people from reasonably likely threats, one wonders what governments of free societies ought to be doing.

    As the world’s cultures interact and wrangle for dominance, as the voting publics are increasingly manipulated and polarized, crippling the effectiveness of government, or worse, enabling the subversion of government for ends that do not serve the citizenry, and as technology enables greater and greater threats from non-governmental actors, one wonders about the future viability of freedom. We know we all became 'less free' after 9/11, though my guess is few of us know how much less. We also know that a democratic style government and broad political and social freedoms are not necessarily required to have a thriving, prosperous society.

    Does 'live free or die' make sense? Would 'live sort-of free and without abuse' be enough so long as it meant that we would be much safer from self-destruction? Is it possible to be free of abuse when you're not free to change your government? Does the want of the individual to be free trump the need for humankind to continue in relative prosperity? Likely we will never have the opportunity to seriously consider whether to act on these questions, having either met our end with some grand- scale act of terrorism or, on the other extreme, having found ourselves under a government that can stop that terrorism but will not tolerate such musings.
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  2. #2
    New York Times: Bin Laden Family Liquidates Holdings With Carlyle Group

    After the Sept. 11 attacks, the investment was criticized amid speculation that the family might profit from increased military spending from America's war on terrorism.
    Politicians usually present themselves as friends or enemies, but it is just theatrics.
    In politics, good and evil do not exist. There is only convenience.
    People need bread and circus. And people are losing freedom because of a theatrical show.
    If they were enemies, all their assets would have been confiscated to help the war effort, instead of allowing them to liquidate.

  3. #3
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    While I think your concerns about freedom and the functioning of democracy are justified, I think what you are forgetting that besides that 'holy' democracy and freedom, we as a society (at least in the West) have at least as strong a believe in the 'rule of law', that protection against too wild swings one way or the other even if our society is - seriously - under attack.

    It is why most of our countries have constitutions or basic laws which can't be changed just like that and which tell us how free we are to limit freedom amongst us.
    Congratulations America

  4. #4
    Law without enforcement is void.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ar81 View Post
    Law without enforcement is void.
    Right, and that's not the kind of society we live in. Regardless of what you think Western society is not lawless or a Orwellian extrapolation of your own third world experience.
    Congratulations America

  6. #6
    Very nicely written piece there, Chaloobi. I'm impressed by the writing quality as well as the ideas. First paragraph especially. Gotta get to sleep, but more later I hope.

  7. #7
    I think you overestimate the threats to democracy (and furthermore, make them somehow uniquely a threat to democracy and not to other styles of government) and underestimate the resilience of democracy as a robust system of government.
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    To take the first, the mixing of the world's cultures has created great economic and social friction and has cross pollinated memes that have grown into the horrors of planes flying into buildings, of suicide bombers blowing up funerals for victims of other suicide bombers, and of the occasional precision guided bomb blowing up a gun popping wedding party. A (relatively) free culture works very well when everyone living in it is bound by memes of conduct letting most people live in relative safety, and when the 'other' is kept outside. By safety I mean from crime but also from other forces the individual cannot protect himself from, such as product safety, workplace hazards, environmental ills, and all the personal threats that regulation of economic activity and social interaction are designed to mitigate. But globalization exposes free cultures to the 'other,’ to toxic, infectious or alien memes for conduct that would exploit a culture’s freedom for advantage in the struggles globalization inevitably breeds.
    The same truth works in reverse. I would argue that militant Islam succeeds in gaining adherent because of insufficient globalization, not too much. Oh, sure, they might get some reflexive conservative following as a reaction to Western culture and permissiveness, but that is because said culture doesn't come with its attendant freedoms or equalization. It's easy to convince an ignorant goatherd to go blow up a checkpoint somewhere - to convince a worldly, internet using middle class professional is quite another deal entirely. Globalization doesn't eliminate nutjobs, but it helps isolate them. Cultures in contact frequently clash, but I do not think that a necessary result of that clash is violence or enmity.

    The Information Revolution threatens us in at least two ways. The first is very straight forward. Knowledge is power and those willing to kill, and die, for a cause, and who are resourceful to begin with, become all the more dangerous with access to more knowledge. The internet offers the 'how-to' resources, communication tools, and intelligence sources that enormously empower the 'bad guy' to do harm.
    And airplanes made it easier to transport the bad guys or attack from air, and the chariot allowed for faster dissemination of messages of the enemy, etc. Any technology has its drawbacks, but I would argue that the benefits of sharing information and developing technologies invariably outweigh the downsides of its misuse. Misuse of technology is a symptom of the problem, but not the problem itself, and does not by itself provide a significant threat to democracy. Quite the contrary; we've seen the internet used to subvert dictatorial and totalitarian governments, to organize peaceful political protest, etc. Imagine how the internet could have hastened the fall of the Soviet Union - instead of painstakingly copying out samizdat publications, dissidents and democracy activists could have spread their messages to millions, and the KGB would have been powerless to stop them.

    Second, the internet has fractured, and continues to fracture, the news sources with which free-ish peoples inform themselves and their free-ish actions. Not long ago the news outlets were comparatively few and fairly easily held accountable to standards of quality and responsibility. Today 'news' sources are multiplying every day and their quality, integrity, and motives are often difficult to divine and beyond redemption. Many highly focused, yet myopic, agenda-driven political editorial outlets masquerade as objective news outlets. Dozens echo each other, lending ideas and claims that a generation ago would have been quickly dismissed by most as outlandish, the appearance of fact and legitimacy. And given the nature of humanity, our craving to see information that we already agree with, our thirst for the outrageous and the inflammatory, this new ability to keep to only these kinds of sources, and in great and satisfying volume and variety, is devastating for a political system that requires voters to be at least somewhat objectively informed in order to function properly.
    I think you have a too-fond memory of the pre-internet press. It was limited to a handful of sources who could be intimidated into suppressing stories, even in democracies (for examples, it was an act of great personal courage when Edward Murrow took McCarthy on in the 50s). Now, rarely can anything stay secret for long (see: Wikileaks, etc.), and 'establishment' sources, whether major news networks or government statements, are regularly challenged by third parties. It's a chaotic system with plenty of bullshit, but a consensus of the truth rapidly emerges from the mess, along with a host of different analyses. People are always going to believe what they want to believe, of course, but that's not a function of the internet, but of human nature.

    Humanity is easily manipulated, by virtue of our basic nature, and modern media, especially the internet, is ideally suited for manipulating. With the onset of the Information Age, and with the broad freedom to use its tools at the basest level of integrity, we corrupt, polarize and geld the government's ability to perform its most basic functions. When the governmental system based on freedom can no longer function because of the underlying culture's personal freedoms, then the system either must slough off some of those freedoms, or face failure in even more severe ways.
    Have you seen the bullshit that comes out of 'official' government news sources in places like China, Iran, and North Korea? They manipulate their people far more than a free press can.

    Lastly there is the growth of technological power. If I were to discuss the super flu, gray goo, or the terminator, you might reflexively dismiss this line of thought as science fiction. But consider another genre of fiction that found its way into reality. Before Al Quaida flew planes into the World Trade Center under the leadership of the arch-villain Osama bin Laden, the idea of a super wealthy, super powerful international criminal organization that could threaten the international community remained safely tucked away in James Bond fiction. But now we have those once fictional villains, though unfortunately not the James Bonds to counter them.
    You overestimate AQ's power. They are in reality a very loosely affiliated network of local terrorist organizations with generally poor funding and organization, and little coordination. They are neither 'super wealthy' or 'super powerful', and they have yet to provide a credible threat to any society. They are nasty, sure, and a nuisance, but not an existential threat.

    Consider what might have happened had Osama been less technologically restricted by his own hyper-religious culture. He at one point had enormous wealth; what if he had invested in biotechnology, founded a company, thriving or otherwise, in the United States with access to the most cutting edge technology? And what if he siphoned that technology and expertise into, say, secretly weaponizing virus' and then unleashed them on the West for a 12 Monkeys style disaster? Is that so far fetched? Consider we've been tailoring virus' in the laboratory for gene therapy for over a decade. Which of these labs couldn’t instead tailor pathogens?
    It's unclear exactly where the money goes, but certainly the CIA has argued that in the 90s OBL had significant investment in a Sudanese drug firm that was making VX on the side (one we blew up in 1998). I have no doubt that he has the desire to do so; I just doubt that he has the ability to actually get a functioning bioweapons facility running. The industrial and knowledge infrastructure needed aren't as much as for a nuke, but it's still quite a bit. Adenoviruses or retroviruses for gene therapy are hardly weaponized biological agents, trust me.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Right, and that's not the kind of society we live in. Regardless of what you think Western society is not lawless or a Orwellian extrapolation of your own third world experience.
    Amnesty International: USA: Impunity for crimes in CIA secret detention program continues

    In a new study on secret detention conducted by experts of the UN Human Rights Council, the USA’s resort to such detentions during what the Bush administration called the “war on terror” comes in for particular attention. The experts call for accountability: anyone found to have participated in secret detention and the associated human rights violations should be “prosecuted and where found guilty given sentences commensurate with the gravity of the acts perpetrated.

  9. #9
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    You are proving nothing; it is widely accepted in the US that the practises mentioned are a reason for concern and government is not acting without impunity. You also don't seem to be aware of the fact that the raison d'etre of a state is to use force. By definition the lawfulness of such use can only be established after it has been used. Because it is the task of the legal system to do so, not of the administration.
    Congratulations America

  10. #10
    Liked the article, Choobs; like Tear said very well written. Obviously you didn't say as much as you could have given the space restrictions, but I did feel like the bit about the information revolution was a tad overdone. This is a minor gripe, but your analysis of the multitude of biased news sources is absolutely nothing new. Just in the 19th and 20th centuries you could find 100s of newspapers in America, most of them published by extremely biased organizations. I just feel like you read too much into it, but at the same time you're right that voters need to consider opposing viewpoints. Again, it was a good read.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Right, and that's not the kind of society we live in. Regardless of what you think Western society is not lawless or a Orwellian extrapolation of your own third world experience.
    Source: Amnesty International
    USA: Impunity for crimes in CIA secret detention program continues
    In a new study on secret detention conducted by experts of the UN Human Rights Council, the USA’s resort to such detentions during what the Bush administration called the “war on terror” comes in for particular attention. The experts call for accountability: anyone found to have participated in secret detention and the associated human rights violations should be “prosecuted and where found guilty given sentences commensurate with the gravity of the acts perpetrated. "
    Source: Amnesty International

    Say no to illegal US detentions
    Guantánamo symbolises the US government’s disregard for international law in its counter-terrorism efforts. It is just one part of a wider system of indefinite and secret detentions, enforced disappearance, renditions and torture and other ill-treatment.
    It reminds me what you could hear from Amnesty International about the former USSR back then.
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    First of all; the US is dealing with those issues itself. Also, international law does not negate the sovereignty of nations, and in the absense of a world wide sovereign the validity of international law is strenuous at best.
    Congratulations America

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    First of all; the US is dealing with those issues itself. Also, international law does not negate the sovereignty of nations, and in the absense of a world wide sovereign the validity of international law is strenuous at best.
    Then why is US asking China to enforce human rights if US can't even do it by itself?
    Is it a way to draw people's attention form the national problem?

    So sovereignity must be respected when it is US sovereignity but how about other country's sovereignity?

    * Obama presses China on currency in trade speech
    * Leave yuan to us, China tells Obama
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    You have a very childish outlook on the world. Coloured it seems by unrealistic utopianism; a world where everybody is equal and power is always used justly. You also don't understand that sovereignty stands or falls with the power to maintain it and the other's willingness to respect it. The international arena is a wolf eat wolf situation. That is a reality the world has to live with and it complicates striving for ones 'way of life' to be spread. Those complications however do not void the underlying objective.
    Congratulations America

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    You have a very childish outlook on the world. Coloured it seems by unrealistic utopianism; a world where everybody is equal and power is always used justly. You also don't understand that sovereignty stands or falls with the power to maintain it and the other's willingness to respect it. The international arena is a wolf eat wolf situation. That is a reality the world has to live with and it complicates striving for ones 'way of life' to be spread. Those complications however do not void the underlying objective.
    Talking about respect, US has been losing respect lately, and I mean in the last 10 years.

    Reuters: Russia dismisses U.S. human rights report
    "It would be interesting to learn how (the State Department), which loves to moralize on the issue of human rights, would comment on torture and inhumane or humiliating treatment in the United States itself," the statement said.
    "And not just the widely known cases in Bagram and the special prison in Guantanamo -- which, contrary to the administration's promises, just doesn't close -- but also in the prisons and on the streets of America," it said.


    * Reuters: U.S. setting bad example on protectionism: Sarkozy
    "If they want to be heard in the fight against protectionism, they should not set the example of protectionism."
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ar81 View Post
    Talking about respect, US has been losing respect lately, and I mean in the last 10 years.
    <snip>
    I don't want to jump in here too much, but it seems you have a habit of responding to people's arguments/accusations with random internet articles rather than making an argument of your own. Just my 2 cents...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ar81 View Post
    Talking about respect, US has been losing respect lately, and I mean in the last 10 years.

    Reuters: Russia dismisses U.S. human rights report
    "It would be interesting to learn how (the State Department), which loves to moralize on the issue of human rights, would comment on torture and inhumane or humiliating treatment in the United States itself," the statement said.
    "And not just the widely known cases in Bagram and the special prison in Guantanamo -- which, contrary to the administration's promises, just doesn't close -- but also in the prisons and on the streets of America," it said.


    * Reuters: U.S. setting bad example on protectionism: Sarkozy
    "If they want to be heard in the fight against protectionism, they should not set the example of protectionism."
    Quote Originally Posted by NGS View Post
    I don't want to jump in here too much, but it seems you have a habit of responding to people's arguments/accusations with random internet articles rather than making an argument of your own. Just my 2 cents...
    I concur, do you (AR) have anything to say or should I simply give up on talking to you. Your call.
    Congratulations America

  18. #18
    If I say what I think (i.e. Avatar better than Hurt Locker) I will not convince you.
    So I decided to refute with facts.
    I am not sure about what do you want.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    While I think your concerns about freedom and the functioning of democracy are justified, I think what you are forgetting that besides that 'holy' democracy and freedom, we as a society (at least in the West) have at least as strong a believe in the 'rule of law', that protection against too wild swings one way or the other even if our society is - seriously - under attack.

    It is why most of our countries have constitutions or basic laws which can't be changed just like that and which tell us how free we are to limit freedom amongst us.
    The first part of your response is a little garbled so I'm not exactly sure I understand your point completely. But in regards to rule of law, I didn't mean to deny the fact of it; if anything I'm saying that the law in free societies will have to buckle down in order to confront the offense from the 'other' and to deal with the increasing power of our own technological advances. But ineffective government, due to our democratic freedoms, will prevent that.

    As far as constitutions are concerned, those fairly intractable protections of personal freedom may be the last nail in the coffin. Envision a scenario where the survival of our civilization might really need strict limits on personal freedom but our system for protecting those freedoms negates our ability to respond quickly enough. What will be the public's reaction to a devastating dirty-bomb or viral attack? Totalitarian social control likely - a poorly executed discarding of our constitution entirely. What would be the reaction to a, currently sci-fi, gray goo attack? Extinction.

    My argument in its essance is not cautionary, that we might lose our personal freedom if we're not careful. It is that we might not discard it soon enough to head off catastrophe.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    I think you overestimate the threats to democracy (and furthermore, make them somehow uniquely a threat to democracy and not to other styles of government) and underestimate the resilience of democracy as a robust system of government.
    I single out democracy because it enables and is enabled by personal freedom and its personal freedom that I am arguing will have to be limitied in order to ensure humanity's long term survival.

    The same truth works in reverse. I would argue that militant Islam succeeds in gaining adherent because of insufficient globalization, not too much. Oh, sure, they might get some reflexive conservative following as a reaction to Western culture and permissiveness, but that is because said culture doesn't come with its attendant freedoms or equalization. It's easy to convince an ignorant goatherd to go blow up a checkpoint somewhere - to convince a worldly, internet using middle class professional is quite another deal entirely. Globalization doesn't eliminate nutjobs, but it helps isolate them. Cultures in contact frequently clash, but I do not think that a necessary result of that clash is violence or enmity.
    A few things:

    #1. The idea of suicide attacker as ignorant goatherd is a myth. It has been demonstrated time and again that many islamic extremists, including suicide bombers, come from educated and privledged classes. I'm not sure that is actually relevant to the argument, though.

    #2. What the recent cultural friction has done is introduce new memes that free cultures have never had to deal with before. Whether or not that friction goes away for whatever reason doesn't matter, the memes will remain. And there will always be extremists ready and willing to behave accordingly for whatever cause they champion. That genie can't be put back in the bottle so as more dangerous technology becomes available, someone will be willing to use it destructively. The only way to deal with that will be draconian, by today's standards, social control.

    Any technology has its drawbacks, but I would argue that the benefits of sharing information and developing technologies invariably outweigh the downsides of its misuse. Misuse of technology is a symptom of the problem, but not the problem itself, and does not by itself provide a significant threat to democracy. Quite the contrary; we've seen the internet used to subvert dictatorial and totalitarian governments, to organize peaceful political protest, etc. Imagine how the internet could have hastened the fall of the Soviet Union - instead of painstakingly copying out samizdat publications, dissidents and democracy activists could have spread their messages to millions, and the KGB would have been powerless to stop them.
    A few more things:

    #1. Again I'm not sure the benefits of the internet are relevant to the argument, but the real world example of China's ability to censor the internet and maintain draconian social control is ample argument against your Soviet Union speculation.

    #2. Symptom or not, the fact remains that technology continues to become more and more potent over time. It will not be long before catastrophic capabilities are readily avavailable in a commercial laboratory. Such abilities probably already are. The will to use such technologies to harm the general public coupled with good old human ingenuity and a free society spell grave potential for disaster. The issue isn't whether such technologies will appear and whether someone will use them, but how they can be stopped within the framework of personal freedom we all enjoy.


    I think you have a too-fond memory of the pre-internet press. It was limited to a handful of sources who could be intimidated into suppressing stories, even in democracies (for examples, it was an act of great personal courage when Edward Murrow took McCarthy on in the 50s). Now, rarely can anything stay secret for long (see: Wikileaks, etc.), and 'establishment' sources, whether major news networks or government statements, are regularly challenged by third parties.
    This part, again, doesn't seem relevant to the hypothesis. If anything, the inability to keep secrets may support it, though only periferally. It doesn't have an affect at all on the subversion/ polarization/ paralasys of government portion.
    It's a chaotic system with plenty of bullshit, but a consensus of the truth rapidly emerges from the mess, along with a host of different analyses. People are always going to believe what they want to believe, of course, but that's not a function of the internet, but of human nature.
    I'm not sure reality bears out the rosy picture of the concensus of the truth emerging, rapidly or otherwise. There may be a concensus, but truthful? All you have to do is look at the recent attempt at health care reform to know otherwise. What the destruction of traditional news sources and the fractured new order have achieved is the ability to replace for millions of Americans all news with political editorial, without them even realizing it. That's the source of the extreme political polarization we see today.

    You overestimate AQ's power. They are in reality a very loosely affiliated network of local terrorist organizations with generally poor funding and organization, and little coordination. They are neither 'super wealthy' or 'super powerful', and they have yet to provide a credible threat to any society. They are nasty, sure, and a nuisance, but not an existential threat.
    AQ is just an example. Consider instead the post 9/11 anthrax mailings. If whoever did that had access to something more potent, there would have been catastrophe. And more and more people have wider access to increasingly potent technologies. With loose personal freedom and no political means to crack down on it, its just a matter of time.
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