It's time to ramble on!

[GGT]

I recall once, a long time ago, calling Rand's attitudes toward birth control on the misogynist side. And boy did I get laid into.

The "chemistry" of the forum was different then; we had folks like Spawnie, Momo, Carnosaur, Heero, 2HD. There were more outspoken conservatives and moderates willing to challenge teh librulz and SSSocialists.

I think it can't be both ways here. If more traffic and more opinions are needed to keep it fresh and alive, then it can't be smart to run out people like Tear. If that means some people have to "let it go" and be more accepting, then so be it. Otherwise, this place will just devolve into IRC in forum format.

[GGT]

btw, what happened to Ghost Enigma and pedexing?

[Loki]

No one has run Tear out. Tear ran himself out. And the reason had nothing to do with the actual views he expressed.

[agamemnus]

tl;dr but I did read some bits. I agree that people tear you apart if you give them the opportunity to, but you don't always have to respond; that just gets out of control.

*dons flame suit*

[EyeKhan]

Is that what you read? *checks glasses* I read a post (others too) where he expressed regret, apologized, and asked for forgiveness. Or at least some understanding. I think y'all don't realize the extent medical/health problems, and medications, can muddy the picture or how people present themselves on-line.

You can't forgive someone who refuses to apologize. The sum of that post is that he thinks he's too honest for us deceitful folk here, and doesn't think that he can be treated with the respect he deserves in a place full of people who refuse to recognize his moral superiority.

Read it more carefully. The only apologies there are for being too honest and not willing to hide what he believes.

Loki's right, he didn't apologize for anything. He walked out of here holding on to the firm conviction that he was right in everything and its just that everyone around here's a dishonest asshole that he has to leave. The only mistake he made was being too honest with us. Yeah.

[LittleFuzzy]

I understand that health problems and medications can "muddy" the picture, and distort people. I don't see that is mitigation though. I'm willing to believe Tear when he says that in person he's the nicest guy around. He still nursed grudges here, and was, by a radical margin, the most belligerent poster. Whatever he's like elsewhere, that's what he is/was like here, and as he concedes in his mention of venting, he's fully aware of it. That belligerence, more than anything else, is what caused him problems here. If you're going to select a place and people to be your whipping boy, you have to accept as a consequence that it is going to affect how you are perceived there/among them.

[Khendraja'aro]

Oy, I contend that he's the most belligerent poster by a radical margin. Now I feel slighted!

You'll be contacted by my seconds soon, Fuzzy. Pistols at dawn work for you?

[Loki]

I understand that health problems and medications can "muddy" the picture, and distort people. I don't see that is mitigation though. I'm willing to believe Tear when he says that in person he's the nicest guy around. He still nursed grudges here, and was, by a radical margin, the most belligerent poster. Whatever he's like elsewhere, that's what he is/was like here, and as he concedes in his mention of venting, he's fully aware of it. That belligerence, more than anything else, is what caused him problems here. If you're going to select a place and people to be your whipping boy, you have to accept as a consequence that it is going to affect how you are perceived there/among them.

One can be belligerent and still recognize one is wrong on occasion or at least that people who disagree with you aren't highly immoral. Belligerence is merely how you approach an issue. He refused to budge even after the fact on most issues, which suggests the real problem is pride. He took every disagreement personally, which made it impossible for him to have a neutral view of people he had debates with.

[Being]

One can be belligerent and still recognize one is wrong on occasion or at least that people who disagree with you aren't highly immoral. Belligerence is merely how you approach an issue. He refused to budge even after the fact on most issues, which suggests the real problem is pride. He took every disagreement personally, which made it impossible for him to have a neutral view of people he had debates with.

You and Tear have much in common.

[termite]

This all seems so needlessly over-dramatised.

Tear - toughen up princess.

[']['ear]

Well, I know I said I wouldn’t check. But then I woke early this morning having some weird dream about CC (strangely connected to having a 4th surgery for some reason. My fears in dream form? ). Since it was clearly bothering me, I thought I’d check in to see what people thought, and put that ghost to rest.

And it’s funny that right and wrong is what is evoked in responses. My first reaction was that people considered this an additional attempt to score points. So astonishingly cynical. The game continues, and some people try to spin the final result and score their final points. This is why I suck here. I feel like a naïf. I’m terrible at this.

Don’t get me wrong. I’ve behaved very poorly. But I think that the responses to my post show exactly what I’m talking about. Loki, Steely, Chaloobi, even Wraith take their last shots, score their last points, try to show how they are right and I am wrong. Hey, I’ve done exactly like this all along, haven’t I? I’m just not as good at it. The point is that I'm not the only one. The responses illustrate that. I just have these flaws so that I screw up much worse. I'm mean to people, and I fail to get my points across. Belligerent, proud and inept make for a horrible combination. I've tried to show people I'm just trying to be blunt and honest. By the responses, I've failed to do so: it's clearly too late, and the bridges are burned. Some get it though. GGT, Fuzzy, thanks for reading carefully and I think understanding where I'm coming from. For the most part I wasn't trying to be a jerk, but it has mostly come out that way.

GGT dear, you're projecting onto me. I'm not using health for an excuse in any way. It is merely the source of an enormous frustration and anger, which gets vented in here, and then fuels my rage when I've dug myself into a hole.



Finally, a few people have said I didn't apologize. That's a baldfaced lie and attempt to spin the outcome. It's disgusting. GGT notes it.

"If I've been that unpleasant, and it appears that I have, then they deserve and apology and explanation. That seems fair. I am sorry if I've actually hurt anybody beyond some bruises and scrapes."

I also recommend searching for "wrong." I admit to being wrong in how I'd argue my points, WHY I'd argue my points, and the techniques I'd use.

I should have known that ugly distortions would follow. They always do. But I shouldn't even respond, should I?



The point I'll stubbornly adhere to is this: I haven't been trying to lie. I haven't debated dishonestly. If I say something is so, then I truly believe it is so. When I said I was justified in calling Loki a racist, I believe I was right. Several comments about blacks that election season, and his endorsement of massive scale butchery of Arab civilians supports this. Iron clad? Absolutely not? Strong support? Yes. On the flip side, Loki has never had any evidence for me being either racist or a rapist (or a Husseinst, anti-corporatist.... ) I want to make this perfectly clear: I'l apologize for a lot of things here, but I sure as hell won't apologize for telling the truth and calling it like I see it. That would be the ultimate betrayal of my self, and I have betrayed myself enough in other ways. I have stayed true, and no amount of Loki post hoc spin can change that.

I will apologize here. I confess to wild temper spikes and unreasonable aggression. But I will not confess to any dishonesty other than the ones I confessed to long ago. I won't sell my soul and lie in the final goodbye just to score points with people. It was callous for me to post what I did about Chaloobi's house. I still think, however, that it is a valid point. It was wrong for me to call Loki a racist, but the claim IS actually supported, and his about me are not. My conduct has been wrong, but I don't believe that my perceptions have been. Fact is, Loki should be able to call me a racist or rapist if he had a shred of evidence.

Just because I recognize that I've carried myself badly does not mean I should play the false penitent: I have apologized for things I have done. I won't apologize for opinions that have good support. Loki, the number of times you've posted here speaks volumes, doesn't it?

[Nessus]

You don't say this outright but since you're ending your post with a question, are you admitting you're not rage-quitting the forum after all?

Low-key and Wraith are going to shit on me for this but there's really no reason for you to leave, if you make an effort to be more constructive. Low-key has been trying, somewhat, to be less authoritative and contrarian, and people haven't dog-piled on him as a knee-jerk reflex either.

[littlelolligagged]

Upsetting Icky is just a plus for you, isn't it?

[Steely Glint]

But I think that the responses to my post show exactly what I’m talking about. Loki, Steely, Chaloobi, even Wraith take their last shots, score their last points, try to show how they are right and I am wrong.

Kind of sad that you only took that from my post, rather than the fact I don't think it is necessary or desirable for you to leave.

[Ominous Gamer]

Low-key has been trying, somewhat, to be less authoritative and contrarian

I was wondering about that. When he was caught bullshitting in the last education thread about pay and hours he simply dropped the subject, instead of his usual drag out posting that combines insults and attempts to change the subject. That was a nice change.

[Loki]

Low-key and Wraith are going to shit on me for this but there's really no reason for you to leave, if you make an effort to be more constructive. Low-key has been trying, somewhat, to be less authoritative and contrarian, and people haven't dog-piled on him as a knee-jerk reflex either.

Au contraire, I think it would be a shame to lose a member that contributes heavily to this forum (in non-spammy ways). But he really has to learn how to keep his ego in check if he doesn't want to start a new flame war every few months.

[EyeKhan]

And it’s funny that right and wrong is what is evoked in responses. My first reaction was that people considered this an additional attempt to score points. So astonishingly cynical. The game continues, and some people try to spin the final result and score their final points. This is why I suck here. I feel like a naïf. I’m terrible at this.

You suck here because you're a judgemental ass and you stubbornly refuse to even entertain the idea that you might be wrong in the substance of what you declare. In your mind your mistakes are in the process, not content. The exact opposite is true though. You can be as clunky as can be, but not be a dickhead, and you'd be fine as far as I'm concerned. And this is not me scoring points, its me giving you time you, imo, haven't earned. If anything I'm losing "points" by going on with it. I guess that's the martyr in me.

But I think that the responses to my post show exactly what I’m talking about. Loki, Steely, Chaloobi, even Wraith take their last shots, score their last points, try to show how they are right and I am wrong.

And here you demonstrate the problem. #1. In your "last words" you take a shot at me, then turn around here in your next "last words" and play the "martyr" (note I think you misuse this word, but I'm using it to illustrate your hypocrasy, so...), whining that I responded in kind. Classic. #2. You are wrong, plain and simple. The fact you continue to deny it is the fact that makes you an ass and maintains the wedge between us. #3. I don't care at all about "points." I'm just defending myself against your unappologetic and confoundingly judgemental attack on me of some months ago. If you just said "Hey Eyekhan, you're right. Judging people on such superficial grounds really is wrong and I'm sorry I did that. I'm willing drop it entirely if you are." Then you and I would never have another word about it.

Hey, I’ve done exactly like this all along, haven’t I? I’m just not as good at it. The point is that I'm not the only one.

Really-really, at least in regards to our rift, you don't get it at all.

I've tried to show people I'm just trying to be blunt and honest. By the responses, I've failed to do so: it's clearly too late, and the bridges are burned.

What you miss is a re-evaluation of your own position and perhaps an admission that you were wrong. Your bridge with me doesn't have to be burned. I don't otherwise have a beef with you.

I was wondering about that. When he was caught bullshitting in the last education thread about pay and hours he simply dropped the subject, instead of his usual drag out posting that combines insults and attempts to change the subject. That was a nice change.

I noticed that too. I was thinking it had something to do with him being so busy, but now I'm wondering.

[littlelolligagged]

You know what ...

I think Tear MUST stay.

Also, you took the time to respond to other people, but not me. I'm hurt. Really.

I'll repeat.

I still want a link to where, exactly, I thought you were judging me, or even that it bothered me if you were.

Otherwise, don't go.

[EyeKhan]

You know what ...

I think Tear MUST stay.

For the record, I would be genuinely disappointed of he bails on the community.

[Wraith]

It would be better if he changed rather than left because he is capable of adding to the discussion, but we've been through his PMS cycles often enough that I've lost all faith that he can change. We always get maybe a week of reasonable Tear, then he starts being a dick again and nobody says anything because he's at least he's less of a dick than he was a week ago. And so it goes until the next crescendo. Maybe the scale of this drama fest will earn us two weeks this time, but it'll be same old soon enough. The belligerence with which he enters threads tends to lead to things either becoming a circle-jerk or a flamewar, smothering dissenting opinions. People who don't agree with him and don't have the stomach for a flamewar end up just keeping their mouths shut. It doesn't take much of that for them to leave. It was the same sort of thing with Cain, really. If we want new people, I don't think we'll have an easy time getting them when we tolerate stuff like that.

[littlelolligagged]

It would be better if he changed rather than left, but we've been through his PMS cycles often enough that I've lost all faith that he can change. We always get maybe a week of reasonable Tear, then he starts being a dick again and nobody says anything because he's at least he's less of a dick than he was a week ago. And so it goes until the next crescendo. Maybe the scale of this drama fest will earn us two weeks this time, but it'll be same old soon enough. The belligerence with which he enters threads tends to lead to things either becoming a circle-jerk or a flamewar, smothering dissenting opinions. People who don't agree with him and don't have the stomach for a flamewar end up just keeping their mouths shut. It doesn't take much of that for them to leave. It was the same sort of thing with Cain, really. If we want new people, I don't think we'll have an easy time getting them when we tolerate stuff like that.

The problem with that theory is that you're willing to tolerate other irritating behavior that isn't conducive to attracting (acceptable) new members.

[Wraith]

Yeah, but there's only so much we can do there, and I think the other irriating behavior seems to have been fading over time. I actually have been trying to think of ways to deal with the other stuff, was planning on starting another thread at some point, but wanted to wait until this died down.

[littlelolligagged]

Fair enough, Wraithy.

[Being]

The problem with that theory is that you're willing to tolerate other irritating behavior that isn't conducive to attracting (acceptable) new members.

Just for the fun of it, how about you define your criteria for acceptability.

[Unheard Of]

...stuff...

I expect you'll be back someday, good bye till then.

[Dreadnaught]

The problem with that theory is that you're willing to tolerate other irritating behavior that isn't conducive to attracting (acceptable) new members.

What specifically?

Separately, I just actually read the rant and I'm as always unsure where the outburst of emotion is coming from. Sometimes I think I miss the temperature of specific posts that builds up over time.

[ImAnOgre]

So ']['ear says he's generally disliked? That's utter bullshit by the way, I actually like the guy.

Hell, the only fucker here I don't like is that suicide guy, but that's just because of his actions in CC before the change. He's the only person here I would like to see get punched in the mouth (since this is ']['ear's thread, I feel it appropriate to bring up past history).

And if it's true that other then me, ']['ear is generally disliked, I can just imagine how much you pissants hate me.

[EyeKhan]

And if it's true that other then me, ']['ear is generally disliked, I can just imagine how much you pissants hate me.

You are difficult to dislike.

[Being]

We need a pissant emoticon. Wraith, a little help?

[Aimless]

Last thing. I forgot the turn of phrase I was thinking about last night. One should try to be the best possible version of themselves in life.

But here I seem to be the worst version of myself. That most succinctly captures what I'm looking for.

Tear, you're a good guy that often behaves poorly here. That's as much a commentary on you as it is on us as a group. Tbh, I think it's okay, we all tend to alternate between being assholes and righteous dudes... but I get what you're saying about not being who you are, here on CC. You're right, there's no need to stick around if you feel like you're not being the good person you are, and I think you might get even more out of your real life if you don't have to deal with that icky feeling.

I'm sad to see you go, and hope you'll be back at a later date, 'cause you're a righteous dude.