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Thread: China Accused of Gaming the System

  1. #1

    Default China Accused of Gaming the System

    China Uses Rules on Global Trade to Its Advantage
    By KEITH BRADSHER

    Published: March 14, 2010

    HONG KONG — With China’s exports soaring, even as other major economies struggle to recover from the recession, evidence is mounting that Beijing is skillfully using inconsistencies in international trade rules to spur its own economy at the expense of others, including the United States.

    Seeking to maintain its export dominance, China is engaged in a two-pronged effort: fighting protectionism among its trade partners and holding down the value of its currency.

    China vigorously defends its economic policies. On Sunday, Premier Wen Jiabao criticized international pressure on China to let the currency appreciate, calling it “finger pointing.” He said that the renminbi, China’s currency, would be kept “basically stable.”

    To maximize its advantage, Beijing is exploiting a fundamental difference between two major international bodies: the World Trade Organization, which wields strict, enforceable penalties for countries that impede trade, and the International Monetary Fund, which acts as a kind of watchdog for global economic policy but has no power over countries like China that do not borrow money from it.

    China had a $198 billion trade surplus with the rest of the world last year, with its exports to the United States outpacing imports by more than four to one. Despite that, in the last 12 months, Beijing has filed more cases with the W.T.O.’s powerful trade tribunals in Geneva than any other country complaining about another’s trade practices.

    In addition, Beijing has worked to suppress a series of I.M.F. reports since 2007 documenting how the country has substantially undervalued its currency, the renminbi, said three people with detailed knowledge of China’s actions.

    China buys dollars and other foreign currencies — worth several hundred billion dollars a year — by selling more of its own currency, which then depresses its value. That intervention helped Chinese exports to surge 46 percent in February compared with a year earlier.

    Many prominent academic economists see a basic contradiction in the global system of oversight on trade and currency.

    “Many of us would like to see the W.T.O.-style commitments — with people’s feet being held to the fire — at other international agencies, like the I.M.F.,” said Jagdish Bhagwati, a Columbia University economist.

    Western countries hoped last year to bring international pressure to bear on China, after years of complaining that Beijing keeps the renminbi artificially low.

    An undervalued currency keeps a country’s exports inexpensive in foreign markets while making imports expensive. That makes a trade surplus more likely, reducing unemployment for that country while increasing unemployment in its trading partners.

    Last September, President Obama, President Hu Jintao of China and other leaders of the Group of 20 industrialized and developing countries agreed in Pittsburgh that all the G-20 countries would begin sharing their economic plans by November. The goal was to coordinate their exits from stimulus programs and prevent the world from lurching from recession straight into inflation.

    The G-20 leaders agreed that the I.M.F. would act as intermediary.

    But two people familiar with China’s response said that the Chinese government missed the November deadline and then submitted a vague document containing mostly historical data. These people said that China feared giving ammunition to critics of its currency policies at the monetary fund and beyond. Both people asked for anonymity because of China’s attitudes about its economic policies.

    If China is found to be manipulating its currency, it could be a political and economic challenge for the Obama administration. President Obama called on Thursday for China to introduce “a more market-oriented exchange rate.” China’s defiant response keeps the administration in a difficult position.

    China is the biggest buyer of Treasury bonds at a time when the United States has record budget deficits and needs China to keep buying those bonds to finance American debt. But the Treasury also faces an April 15 deadline for whether or not to list China as a country that manipulates the value of its currency.

    If China is listed, that could embolden members of Congress who are already discussing whether to seek restrictions on Chinese exports to the United States. China would certainly criticize such retaliation as protectionism, leading to a broader deterioration in already strained bilateral relations.

    China is starting to describe its currency interventions as stimulus. But unlike extra government spending in the United States and other countries, currency intervention does not expand global demand, but shifts it from other countries to China.

    Two closely related scourges played a central role in the collapse of world trade in the 1930s: protectionism and beggar-thy-neighbor currency devaluations. World leaders set up two institutions after World War II, now known as the W.T.O. and the I.M.F., to reduce the risk of another Great Depression.

    Unlike its predecessor, which had weak arbitration panels whose rulings could be easily blocked by the losing country, the trade organization has had powerful tribunals since 1995. These tribunals can clear the way for the imposition of sanctions running into the billions of dollars.

    Filing a case against another country is the heaviest artillery available to countries in trade disputes. But it also is expensive. Preparing a case and pushing it through a tribunal can easily require millions of dollars in legal expenses, and low-income countries seldom file them.

    China joined the W.T.O. in 2001 and in its first seven years filed only three cases. But it has stepped up its pace recently, and has filed four of the 15 cases in the last year: two against the United States, on poultry and tires, and two against the European Union, on steel fasteners and poultry.

    The monetary fund has not acquired similar powers to the trade organization.

    I.M.F. policies call for it to disclose documents and information on a timely basis, with the deletion only of market-moving information. But under the rules a member country may decide to withhold a report, an organization official said.

    China allowed the release of its reports until the monetary fund’s executive board decided in June 2007 that reports should pay more attention to currency policies. China has quietly blocked release of reports on its policies ever since, without providing its specific reasons to the I.M.F.

    A person who has seen copies of the most recent report last summer said that the monetary fund staff concluded the renminbi was “substantially undervalued.”

    The monetary fund regards a currency as substantially undervalued if it is more than 20 percent below its fair market value.

    More than four-fifths of the I.M.F.’s members allow publication of the agency’s annual staff reports on their economies. Countries blocking release are mostly tightly controlled places like Myanmar, Sudan, Turkmenistan and Saudi Arabia, although Brazil has also not released its reports.

    China’s central bank did not respond to calls and messages seeking comment.

    The main indicator of a country’s intervention in currency markets is its level of foreign reserves. China halted the gradual appreciation of the renminbi against the dollar in July 2008; from June 30, 2008, through Dec. 31 of last year, China’s foreign exchange reserves rose by $590 billion. A small part of the increase reflected interest on bonds, the appreciation of stocks and currency fluctuations.
    Source

    Thought this was interesting. It's come up before, and China is pretty clearly manipulating its currency to its own advantage, but I don't think the US is in any position to do anything about it at the moment.

  2. #2
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    This morning I heard a commentator say that the Chinese are unwilling to let their currency rise in value because they fear the civil unrest that might be caused by ensuing inflation. Especially since the mass of chinese workers see very little change in their own living conditions and yet a lot of people with the right connections and deep pockets for bribes get insanely rich.
    Congratulations America

  3. #3
    Americans are not willing to stop buying chinese products, and US government is not willing to stop borrowing by issuing bonds. These two behaviors keep dollar high as it increases the demand for dollars in the market of capitals. A good way to prevent this would be to ask oil countries to use another currency other than dollar to reduce demand of dollars worldwide. But I suspect that US government may not want to compromise bond issuance to fund deficit.

    Indeed, as I see it, China is doing a favor to US as it is absorbing US inflation. Chinese economy is deflationary because chinese save money and chinese government generates surplus. US economy is inflationary. If US breaks relationships, US may suffer a hyperinflation and may have problems to fund deficits. It would bring starvation to Americans.

    Instead China could find alternative ways to make their economy a bit more inflationary by increasing government spending.

    US-China relationship is a relationship where China gets the required inflation, and US gets the required credit.

    * Leave yuan to us, China tells Obama
    People's Bank of China Vice Governor Su Ning said the United States should look to itself to boost exports and not cast blame on other countries, when asked to comment on remarks on Thursday by Obama, who called on China to move to a "more market-oriented exchange rate."

    One thing is certain. If Americans do not buy, Chinese cannot sell. So who should be blamed?

    * Chinese Exports Increase 46% as Demand From West Rebounds
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  4. #4
    The thing is that everyone "manipulates" their currency in the loosest sense of the word.

    What I think China does do is practice protectionism via requiring firms to partner with domestic state-run organizations, enforcing censorship, not respecting IP laws and doing things like arresting corporate officials because they don't like the price of iron ore.

  5. #5
    This is what chinese say con censorship:
    BBC - Digital Giants: Victor Koo
    The founder and CEO of Chinese video website YouKu.com says censorship levels in China are exaggerated by western media.


    IP laws are controversial. IP law may indeed impose repression in Spain:
    Spanish Presidency leading Europe towards Digital Inquisition?
    A disturbing document on Internet policy written by the Spanish Presidency of the EU Council has been published. (...) These questions (see below) are clearly oriented to justify the imposition of Internet filtering and blocking and its extension to a growing number of areas. While being an uneffective enforcement tool, these measures affect the decentralized architecture of the Internet and violate the principle of Net neutrality. They also open the door to censorship, given that the enforcement of traditional limitations to freedom of expression through Net filtering exposes Internet users to the collateral blocking of "innocent" websites (overblocking).

    Protectionism in China? See this:
    China's Bankruptcy Big Bang
    It also makes China the first Asian country to adopt a U.S.-style bankruptcy system.

    If companies do not like China, they can just leave.
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by ar81 View Post
    If companies do not like China, they can just leave.
    Like Google?
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  7. #7

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
    Like Google?
    Yes. Google may find other markets.
    China is not the only place on Earth to do business.
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  9. #9
    Like google wants to walk away from one billion people?

    Nothing will happen as long as Americans want and demand cheap goods from China, and expect China to keep buying our debt.

    Mutual dependency.

  10. #10
    Who knows what the hell they are saying to each other, but it seems likely that they will shut down their Chinese search engine. And then likely just get totally blocked in China, like Facebook and YouTube.

    Just like it makes sense for us to stop borrowing money.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ar81 View Post
    Yes. Google may find other markets.
    China is not the only place on Earth to do business.
    you're way to lenient on repressive regimes.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy_Ivan80 View Post
    you're way to lenient on repressive regimes.
    What repressive regime are you talking about?

    * Amnesty International: Human Rights in the United States
    * Amnesty International: USA: Impunity for crimes in CIA secret detention program continues
    * Reuters: Russia dismisses U.S. human rights report
    Russia indignantly dismissed U.S. criticism of its human rights record on Friday, saying the United States was guilty of its own abuses from Afghanistan to "the streets of America." (...) "It would be interesting to learn how (the State Department), which loves to moralize on the issue of human rights, would comment on torture and inhumane or humiliating treatment in the United States itself," the statement said.

    ...and who was "gaming the system"?

    * BBC: Dollar rises on surprise Federal Reserve move 19 February 2010
    * Reuters: Obama presses China on currency in trade speech

    Politics looks like a cartoon nowadays.
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  13. #13
    BEIJING - China's commerce minister warned the United States on Sunday that if it launches a "trade war" against China by levying punitive tariffs on Chinese imports, the United States will suffer the most.

    Chen Deming also said the U.S. government's "obsession" with China's exchange rate could not be seriously addressed until it stopped blocking the export of high-tech products, such as supercomputers and satellites, to China. "If some congressmen insist on labeling China as a currency manipulator and slap punitive tariffs on Chinese products, then the [Chinese] government will find it impossible not to react," Chen said in an interview with The Washington Post. "If the United States uses the exchange rate to start a new trade war, China will be hurt. But the American people and U.S. companies will be hurt even more."

    Chen's comments, made during an interview Sunday, reflect the exasperation within the Chinese leadership regarding the United States' attempt to push China to allow its currency, the yuan, to rise against the dollar. In addition, Chen's remarks also underscore how China is seeking to use the current trade dispute with the United States to push its own agenda in Washington — to eliminate, or at least ease, the 20-year-old sanctions that limit American exports to China.

    President Obama has contended that if China lets the yuan appreciate, U.S. exports would increase. Sen. Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.) is authoring legislation that would place tariffs on Chinese goods if China does not allow its currency to float more freely. On April 15, the Treasury Department is scheduled to release a report on worldwide currencies. Chen said the Chinese government does not want to be labeled a "currency manipulator."

    Chen, who has studied at Harvard University, said he didn't understand what the United States was attempting to achieve by threatening China with tariffs.

    "You're not going to get 1.3 billion Chinese to change by insulting them," he said. "Could it be related to upcoming elections? I don't know. Because economically, it makes no sense."

    'Not practical'
    Chen said if the U.S. actions were geared toward decreasing America's trade imbalance by limiting imports, it wouldn't work. Perhaps imports from China would decrease, but that wouldn't mean that Americans would start producing goods such as telephones and televisions again. "That production isn't going to return to America, that's just not practical," he said. "Globalization has changed all that."

    Chen said the best way for the United States to increase its exports to China would be to relax restrictions on the export of high-technology and dual-use goods to China. Since 1989, when the Chinese government launched a crackdown on student-led protests around Tiananmen Square, the United States has placed limitations on some exports. Chen said those limits have amounted to billions of dollars a year in trade.

    And he added that under such restrictions, talk about a more liberalized exchange system in China is a non-starter. "If you want to discuss the exchange rate, you have to do it under a free trading system," he said, "a system wherein if I want to buy something I can, and if you want to sell it you can."

    Chen cited some instances of U.S. restrictions. After the massive earthquake in Sichuan province in 2008, for example, China sought to buy engines for Black Hawk helicopters that the United States sold China in the 1980s when the countries were aligned against the Soviet Union. Chen said China was trying to make the purchase so it could use the helicopters to save people injured in the quake, but that the United States rejected the request. (U.S. officials have raised doubts about China's claim, pointing out that Black Hawks have a limited carrying capacity.)

    China solved its problem by borrowing helicopter engines, and subsequently buying helicopters, from Russia, Chen said. The same holds true for satellites, he added. China would rather buy them from the United States, but concerns about export controls have forced it to source satellites from Europe, Chen said. "This is the reason why our trade balance with the United States is skewed," Chen said. "The United States has strict export controls to China."

    And don't expect that China will simply do without these goods, he added. "We're a nation of 1.3 billion people. We graduate 7 million university students a year. We'll either make it ourselves or buy it from somewhere else," he said.

    Old proverb
    Invoking an old Chinese proverb favored by Mao Zedong, he said, "just because the butcher is dead, doesn't mean we won't be able to eat pork."

    Obama came into office saying he was going to review the limits on exports to certain countries. "But," Chen pointed out, "that was more than half a year ago and, so far, nothing has happened. He's said he wants exports to double in five years, but I don't know whom he is going to sell them to."

    Chen said that China does not want the trade issue politicized. To that end, he said a deputy trade minister, Zhong Shan, would arrive in the United States in the next few days to discuss trade issues with his counterparts at the Commerce Department and the Office of the U.S. Trade Representative. "Both sides need to stay cool," he said. "We need to sit down and talk."

    But if the United States does decide to impose tariffs on China, Chen said, American companies operating in China, which account for more than 60 percent of China's exports to the United States, would surely be hurt the most.

    "In the end," Chen said, "America is the one that needs to adjust."

    While some analysts have predicted that China would soon start to let the yuan appreciate, Chen's interview illustrated the fact that there is a strong lobby in China opposing revaluation. One reason why a revaluation would be dangerous for China, Chen said, is that profit margins for Chinese exporters are tiny — ranging from 1.7 to two percentage points.
    Source

    Tough talk from China. I also don't think they actually want more imports from the US.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ar81 View Post
    What repressive regime are you talking about?

    * Amnesty International: Human Rights in the United States
    * Amnesty International: USA: Impunity for crimes in CIA secret detention program continues
    * Reuters: Russia dismisses U.S. human rights report
    Russia indignantly dismissed U.S. criticism of its human rights record on Friday, saying the United States was guilty of its own abuses from Afghanistan to "the streets of America." (...) "It would be interesting to learn how (the State Department), which loves to moralize on the issue of human rights, would comment on torture and inhumane or humiliating treatment in the United States itself," the statement said.

    ...and who was "gaming the system"?

    * BBC: Dollar rises on surprise Federal Reserve move 19 February 2010
    * Reuters: Obama presses China on currency in trade speech

    Politics looks like a cartoon nowadays.
    Don't be an idiot, you're better than that.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Source

    Tough talk from China. I also don't think they actually want more imports from the US.
    of course they don't. China wants the US to fall. It's a simple as that. 't Might be time to out the Chinese as a liars and cheats they are. And if that hurts... then so be it. The adage "No pain, no gain" holds true in this too.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy_Ivan80 View Post
    of course they don't. China wants the US to fall. It's a simple as that. 't Might be time to out the Chinese as a liars and cheats they are. And if that hurts... then so be it. The adage "No pain, no gain" holds true in this too.
    They don't actually want the US to fail (in the near future anyway), as that would undermine the Chinese economy, which is the CCP's primary concern. They probably do want the US to stagnate though.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy_Ivan80 View Post
    Don't be an idiot, you're better than that.
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  18. #18
    And don't expect that China will simply do without these goods, he added. "We're a nation of 1.3 billion people. We graduate 7 million university students a year. We'll either make it ourselves or buy it from somewhere else," he said.

    Old proverb
    Invoking an old Chinese proverb favored by Mao Zedong, he said, "just because the butcher is dead, doesn't mean we won't be able to eat pork."
    ouch

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Source

    Tough talk from China. I also don't think they actually want more imports from the US.
    Well this is an interesting question -- who might get hurt more within, say, one year? Them because we comprise a large component of their demand? Or us because we lurve the cheap stuff we get from them?

  20. #20
    The having the Chinese graduates make the products is kind of ironic considering there was recently an article showing that there's a very high unemployment rate among such graduates, as firms don't think they have the necessary skills to succeed in the workplace (i.e. they can only memorize useless information).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The having the Chinese graduates make the products is kind of ironic considering there was recently an article showing that there's a very high unemployment rate among such graduates, as firms don't think they have the necessary skills to succeed in the workplace (i.e. they can only memorize useless information).
    Source?
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  22. #22
    No source is necessary for Loki; he is above such petty squabbles.

    Same for me!

    Warning: you cannot join our club of self-sourcing unless you bring your top hat, "hand" watch, moustache, and cane. Cigars in a box and card deck sets are optional.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    No source is necessary for Loki; he is above such petty squabbles.

    Same for me!

    Warning: you cannot join our club of self-sourcing unless you bring your top hat, "hand" watch, moustache, and cane. Cigars in a box and card deck sets are optional.
    I was gonna post pictures of my top hat, watch, and Cain but then I reminded myself that this is the serious zone.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  24. #24
    Loki has Jedi powers, he can see where others can't, specially things that happen in the other side of the planet.

    As I see it China needs US less than US needs China.
    Without China, US should need to rely on Japan for loans to afford deficit, and US credit rating will not last for too long.
    US needs to change deficitary habits and debt based economy, while China only needs to increase government spending to keep economy alive. US task is harder.

    US is poking China as if it was a warmonger Japan from 1941. China is not like Japan. So I find it laughable.
    US geopolitical power is set to wane in the future. It would be better to get along, not to fight. US has important strategic disadvantages nowadays.
    Last edited by ar81; 03-23-2010 at 01:02 PM.
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Like google wants to walk away from one billion people?
    It doesn't want of course. But they have to consider if it worth the trouble. It's not like Google has a big share of the market to start with.
    "Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt

  26. #26
    "It has been proved both in theory and practice that the appreciation of a nation's currency provides little help for improving the balance of payments," Chen said in a detailed defense of China's trade policy.

    Source
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  27. #27
    Chinese Communist Minister makes a mockery of reality? What's next on the news, North Korea makes more insane threats?

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    Chinese Communist Minister makes a mockery of reality? What's next on the news, North Korea makes more insane threats?
    If yuan is revalued, Americans should spend more dollars to pay for chinese goods, lowering American standard of living and driving up inflation which would force the Fed to contain inflation and hurt an already weak economy. Also, inflation would hit US bonds that are used to fund US deficit, forcing an increased interest rate to compensate. Both would increase the demand for dollars, bouncing dollar up and yuan down again.
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  29. #29
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The having the Chinese graduates make the products is kind of ironic considering there was recently an article showing that there's a very high unemployment rate among such graduates, as firms don't think they have the necessary skills to succeed in the workplace (i.e. they can only memorize useless information).
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Source?
    Here.

    And it's only gotten worse since 2007 - maybe Loki cares enough to find the recent article he alluded to, but I don't. I assume you can use Google and/or browse recent editions of The Economist or Business Week. If I'm giving you too much credit, let me know and I'll lower my expectations regarding your capabilities.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

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