College Athletes, Grades and Graduation

[GGT]

March MadNess!

msnbc reported that there's a renewed attempt to improve academic performance among college athletes. Some basketball teams apparently have low GPA requirements, and horrible graduation rates. U of Maryland's is less than 8%

The NCAA is fighting the proposal, saying it's too stringent to expect at least 40% of their players succeed academically.

Critics say the sports departments just want the millions per year in revenue, and don't care about their actual education.

I've never been a big fan of athletic scholarships, or schools that recruit braun as much as brain....what do you think?

[Nessus]

One of the biggest credibility problems of US higher education, IMO

[littlelolligagged]

I think my daughter very much wants a gymnastics scholarship, or to at least be on a team.


But gymnastics doesn't have the same reputation for keeping the incompetents around as men's football and basketball teams.

Hell, no women's sports do.

It is so pathetic that they waste all that scholarship money on the men. 3 or 4 alternates for each position, all with a full ride. And the majority of them have no chance of ever playing professionally, because there is just too large of a pool.

[Aimless]

Let's face it, if you wanna be a pro you have to sacrifice a lot.

[GGT]

One of the biggest credibility problems of US higher education, IMO

It should be an embarrassment to us, but we're also a nation that loves athletes and sports....and it brings in a lot of munney!

It's crazy how much time schools give athletes to "flunk out". It can take nearly two years in some places. What a waste, especially at state universities that take tax payer money.

[Timbuk2]

It should be an embarrassment to us, but we're also a nation that loves athletes and sports....

Every nation loves athletes and sports.

I'm just not sure how many (if any) other nations have collegiate scholarships or indeed courses.

Sports professionals in other countries, generally, become professional by means other than university.

Whereas most major American professional sports teams recruit directly from these universities and the entire system is based around that.

[Illusions]

One of the biggest credibility problems of US higher education, IMO

I have to ask about the selective dismissal thing. Not you specifically, but a lot of foreign posters in general it will be:

Some US University does some pretty dumb shit / invokes a pretty dumb policy - "Look at how terrible the American education system is."
MIT/Yale/Some other Ivy League or Tech school pulls off something awesome - "That's pretty awesome." (No mention or thought to this being a highlight of the American education system)

?

I also see it elsewhere outside commentary on the American education system, for instance, some dumb hick somewhere will do something stupid, foreign posters will lambaste American idiocy, but then NASA/Brookhaven National Labs/Some other American Science/Research/Corporate entity will do something brilliant, or reveal something awesome, however this never factors in. Its like we can't win.

[Nessus]

The glass is half empty, son

[EyeKhan]

If kids want to get ahead using their physical prowess, they should join the military.

[Timbuk2]

Uhhhh.

Define 'get ahead'.

[EyeKhan]

Uhhhh.

Define 'get ahead'.

Exactly.

[GGT]

Well, I'm being a bit dismissive of it too, Illusions. It's strange to bring a student into "higher education" because they have a great dunk shot or tackling ability. It should be based on grades in high school and a desire to advance in education...not their athletic ability.

Some students are the exceptional kind: smart, high grades, and also possess a physical talent. But we know damn well there are large numbers of below-average students making it into university, continuing with more bad grades. It diffuses the value and importance of an academic education for everyone else. IMO.

[Illusions]

The glass is half empty, son

Edit: Why was I allowed to post something with nothing in it? I meant to click the "Go Advanced" button...

[LittleFuzzy]

The accepted low performance of people in some sports programs is disgraceful. They do need to be held to the same standards as the rest of the student body. They should not be held to higher standards than are expected of any other student, on a scholarship or otherwise. And I don't have any particular problem with the idea of sports scholarships. Most of them DO go to people who would not otherwise be able to afford higher education, and I'm generally in favor of such aid efforts, nor do I particularly mind targeting them to ensure a diverse student body.

[Loki]

Keep in mind that the kind of people who generally get basketball and football scholarships are generally not the type who value an education at all. Had they not had the athletic scholarship, they either wouldn't go to college at all (probably wouldn't get accepted anyway) or drop out soon after getting in. The low graduation rates are more a function of the academic quality of student-athletes (in the two sports I mentioned) than they are of anything else. Having said that, some universities clearly do try to push the student-athletes to study more than others and the different graduation rates do reflect that.

Grades per se aren't usually an issue by the way. These people are pushed to major in really easy subjects and take really easy electives.

[Dreadnaught]

I have to disagree with both Loki and Fuzzy to a certain extent. Plenty of people who are "student athletes" are plenty smart. Of course some institutions recruit intellectual bricks, but I'm less comfortable judging them for it. I think the bigger issue is how we admit people to colleges.

We have a college selection process in America that also values non-academic skills, perhaps sometimes to a fault. But the goal is building campuses that have people who are good at lots of things. Is there much difference between someone let into college/given a scholarship because they are a basketball prodigy and someone who created a sophisticated computer algorithm in high school?

The answer is of course yes -- but different people value different things, which is why college admissions folks often try to fill classes with people with different backgrounds and skills.

[Loki]

I have to disagree with both Loki and Fuzzy to a certain extent. Plenty of people who are "student athletes" are plenty smart. Of course some institutions recruit intellectual bricks, but I'm less comfortable judging them for it. I think the bigger issue is how we admit people to colleges.

My point wasn't about student athletes in general; it was about student athletes in basketball and football. They're not the same. I think the fact that when a college football or basketball player gets really good grades or majors in something hard it makes the local papers should tell you something about what the expectations for these people are. These are also sports that don't require much effort from parents or much money, which means the top players are generally not from the best environments.

The answer is of course yes -- but different people value different things, which is why college admissions folks often try to fill classes with people with different backgrounds and skills.

Someone who created a math algorithm probably wouldn't get into a top college with a 2.5 high school GPA. It's pretty obvious why these people are admitted and it's not to create diversity.

[Steely Glint]

I was under the impression - through people I know going off to study in America on athletics scholarships - that these athlete students were expected to maintain pretty decent grades or they get booted off. Am I mistaken in that, or was it just those specific universities?

But the goal is building campuses that have people who are good at lots of things. Is there much difference between someone let into college/given a scholarship because they are a basketball prodigy and someone who created a sophisticated computer algorithm in high school?

The answer is of course yes -- but different people value different things, which is why college admissions folks often try to fill classes with people with different backgrounds and skills.

Leaving aside the value judgments about the relative worth of physical vs mental abilities, the difference is that a guy who created the sophisticated computer algorithm goes to college to study computer science, the basketball player goes there to study something unrelated to basketball.

[Loki]

No, they have to maintain pretty mediocre averages (something like a C/C+ when the average grade is about a B/B+). And the athlete is likely going to college to study communications, that most wonderful of subjects.

[Steely Glint]

This is what you get for having your places of higher learning also serve a duel function as national sports teams.

[Loki]

One of the problems is that, for whatever reason, basketball and football don't really have feeder leagues. That means college ends up serving that role (I suppose one can argue that the existence of college athletics is why we don't have feeder leagues for those sports). Baseball and hockey do have feeder leagues, so the people who go to college to play those sports usually do care at least a bit about getting an education.