Pursuits

[GGT]

The pursuit of Life, Liberty, and Happiness....

We can't have liberty or happiNess if we're sick or dead.

Maslow's hierarchy of needs places physical needs at the bottom of the ladder (water, food, shelter) before we can climb any rung toward that higher amorphous thing called self-actualization.

One of those simple things put into validated theory.....who can focus on freedom or even ego satisfaction, if they're too busy trying to find food and keep safe from predators who'd kill us (for their life blood)?

What child can learn properly if they're malnourished, or spend their nights in shelters or underpasses, or even in their own homes with empty cupboards, or crappy food? They may as well be huddled in line for a corn or rice mush, or a WHO protein bar.

What sick, fragile, or impaired person can stay alive in our current system, even if it's temporary? Can only the fittest survive if they sacrifice the weakest among us? Is that what being human and humane has come to mean?



No, this isn't intended to be a pro-life/anti-abortion thread. It's my meager attempt to start a fresh dialogue about US health care reform. The bar is higher now, as it should be.

I want to ask those who say they're against reform, or that we can't afford it.....what is your ideology, and what are your proposals?

[Being]

What sick, fragile, or impaired person can stay alive in our current system, even if it's temporary? Can only the fittest survive if they sacrifice the weakest among us? Is that what being human and humane has come to mean?

Remember the Donner Party? The strong survived. The weak were humanely killed and eaten. Kinda human nature don't you think?

[GGT]

Sorry, Donner Party doesn't ring any bells. Were they part of our current system of health care?

[Being]

Sorry, Donner Party doesn't ring any bells. Were they part of our current system of health care?

Well, here's a short read on cowboyism for you.

Donner Party

[GGT]

Didn't read whole thing. Some Oregon Trail type story? When it was take a swig of whiskey and bite a bullet while the barber cuts your leg off? Then they were not part of our current system....

[Being]

Didn't read whole thing. Some Oregon Trail type story? When it was take a swig of whiskey and bite a bullet while the barber cuts your leg off? Then they were not part of our current system....

No, really, read the story. It describes the attitudes that prevent America from moving forward.

[GGT]

Sigh, I read the first page. Reminded me of Little House on the Prairie. Pioneers with a yearning, taking risks based on trust. A man wrote a book with tips, before actually testing them out. How's it end? They all moved around, babies were born, people died, suffering all around, but their ancestors or historians tell their story.

How does that relate to today? If anything I'd think we'd say move on little doggies, keep it moving, don't look back....tomorrow is not there.

[Being]

Sigh, I read the first page. Reminded me of Little House on the Prairie. Pioneers with a yearning, taking risks based on trust. A man wrote a book with tips, before actually testing them out. How's it end? They all moved around, babies were born, people died, suffering all around, but their ancestors or historians tell their story.

How does that relate to today? If anything I'd think we'd say move on little doggies, keep it moving, don't look back....tomorrow is not there.

It purtains to the same attitudes that exist today. In particular, cowboyism. They ate people to survive. It's a true story.

A few days later, the party was caught in a blizzard and had great difficulty getting and keeping a fire lit. Antonio, Patrick Dolan, Franklin Graves, and Lemuel Murphy soon died and in desperation, the others resorted to cannibalism.
Living off the bodies of those that died along the path to Sutter’s Fort, the snowshoeing survivors were reduced to seven by the time they reached safety on the western side of the mountains on January 19, 1847. Only two of the ten men survived, including William Eddy and William Foster, but all five women lived through the journey. Of the eight dead, seven had been cannibalized. Immediately messages were dispatched to neighboring settlements as area residents rallied to save the rest of the Donner Party.

But it's the descisions and the mentality behind those descisions that reflect the attitudes that fight healthcare reform. You really need to read the whole story to get that.

[GGT]

hmm. When I think of today's "cowboy capitalism", it's mostly about being reckless. But I can see the underlying story line you wanted to highlight. Running rough shod over anyone who stands in the way. Doing anything to survive. (If the Donner party is about cannibalism I won't read the next page).

I have a problem with those who won't let go of that kind of history. We can read and write now, it's even streamed into our living rooms from all over the world via the internet, or we can watch global tv from any library, coffee shop, pub or airport. We might still have a yearning for adventure, fall for propaganda, or believe authors of books who promise nirvana, but we all know we don't have to resort to literal cannibalism to get ahead.

Metaphorically, there's all sorts of predatory cannibalism going on, and that's what bugs the crap out of me, and keeps me awake at night. It depresses me that so many millions of people really believe that by keeping others down, is their way to get ahead.

[Being]

hmm. When I think of today's "cowboy capitalism", it's mostly about being reckless. But I can see the underlying story line you wanted to highlight. Running rough shod over anyone who stands in the way. Doing anything to survive. (If the Donner party is about cannibalism I won't read the next page).

I have a problem with those who won't let go of that kind of history. We can read and write now, it's even streamed into our living rooms from all over the world via the internet, or we can watch global tv from any library, coffee shop, pub or airport. We might still have a yearning for adventure, fall for propaganda, or believe authors of books who promise nirvana, but we all know we don't have to resort to literal cannibalism to get ahead.

Metaphorically, there's all sorts of predatory cannibalism going on, and that's what bugs the crap out of me, and keeps me awake at night. It depresses me that so many millions of people really believe that by keeping others down, is their way to get ahead.

I don't see it as keeping others down; it's survival of the fittest. You don't need to get ahead, you just can't fall behind. If you are already ahead and you still need more, that is cannibalism.

[GGT]

I don't see it as keeping others down; it's survival of the fittest. You don't need to get ahead, you just can't fall behind. If you are already ahead and you still need more, that is cannibalism.

Modern semantics? Lots of people have fallen behind, and they can't catch up. Not if they're already old, sick, or weak. They've already fallen into the cracks. Even more people are hovering at the edge, almost over the line, and they're trying so hard not to fall that they can barely cry out for help. Takes too much energy, when all their energy is expended in simply "getting by" and holding on.

I know many people will read that and say, "Bullshit, that's a symptom of lazy thinking, an entitlement attitude. If they're overextended it's their own damn fault. It's not like they're stuck on an island and trapped under concrete like Haitians."


When people talk about health care, or treatment of illness, I assume they mean first world. Not third world mosquito nets and malaria, or yellow fever, or blindness from parasites in drinking water, or kids who die from diarrhea and dehydration. I assume too much perhaps. Because I also don't believe that health care is a "limited resource".

Lots of economists will peg it as a limited commodity, but I say that's crap ideology. Compassion is free. Only stingy fear has a price, and we all pay for that. Narcissism has a price, and it's very steep.

[Being]

Modern semantics?

There is nothing modern about cannibalism.

[Ominous Gamer]

GGT has never heard of the Donner party?

When I have to provide a reservation name at a resturant I always give Donner, sometimes its already taken, so lately I revert to Ocean.

[2HD]

If the Donner party had been made up of average people from today's times, no one would have survived.

Health Care reform is unfortunately necessary. I don't really like it, but it is what it is.

However, I believe that Americans have the ability to reform health care themselves if they themselves changed. If people just made some lifestyle changes our overall health wouldn't feed the medical machine that can afford to charge outrageous prices for goods and services because, well, what else are you going to do , die?

"Survival of the fittest", IMO comes up a couple of times in my thoughts on health care. Young people could avoid the Godfather like power that the medical industry has over us if they just learned from their parents' mistakes and change the way they live, but that doesn't change the fact that grandma needs in home care and expensive medications and treatments. Grandma is always low hanging fruit when it comes to the health care debate, hence the "death panels" scare tactics that are always used by people against reform. People die. No one likes it, especially when it is grandma, and she didn't do anything wrong. Health care is so good nowadays, that people almost put a supernatural belief in it that it will "fix everything", include save grandma. If you tie medical companies' hands and make them charge less for this cholesterol medicine that you wouldn't need in the first place if you took better care of yourself, grandma might die. So some people secretly believe that those individuals who are stuck in the health care hamster wheel should just be allowed to croak so the wheel will be forced to stop turning with such unlimited power, and let those of us who aren't dependent on the health care industry stare them down into submission with our ability to breath, walk, and think under our own power and not a respirator or medication.

Others believe that the "Survival of the Fittest" mantra should be applied to the medical conglomerate it self, and let capitalism be the great equalizer. However, it's hard to see that big picture solution when human lives hang the balance while waiting to see how and when the market levels out. I know that sounds dramatic, but I don't think it's that far from reality.

Can you imagine what the costs for medical care will be when those of us who are in our 30s are in our 60s if medical costs and insurance costs continue to increase at the current rate unchecked?

[GGT]

Hi, 2HD! Great to see you again!

Pursuit of Life, Liberty.....you're right, there's no equivalent to the Donner Party pioneer survivalist today, dead is dead.

I wonder if you over-estimate the 'lifestyle' problems tho--so much of that now has proven genetic causes, from high lipid levels and heart disease, to auto immune diseases--that can't be fixed with diet and exercise, and good clean livin'.

Survival of the Fittest in medicine also has help from the government (our taxes), most of what's going on now is favoring the insurance monopoly, not really improving Care or cutting costs. We're also not helping physicians get a better education / pay off their education debt / provide their service unless they're in an insurance network. We're not helping employers get out from under the insurance vampire squeeze, but they still have to compete in a global market. IMO we're propping up the wrong 'industry'.

The thing about Libertarianism that baffles me, is how the far right (FRIGHT) neo-conservatives have managed to bastardize the idea of liberty and fairness, and turned communitarianism into being a pinko commie. Everyone loves to scare granny about her Medicare, but that's one of our sssssocialism programs most everyone loves, and claims to want to keep.

It's like the US is the teenager in the middle of an identity crisis, and we can't figure out who we want to be when we grow up. It's just easier to say No to everything, don't tell me what to doooo, you can't maaake meee!

[2HD]

Hi, 2HD! Great to see you again!

Pursuit of Life, Liberty.....you're right, there's no equivalent to the Donner Party pioneer survivalist today, dead is dead.

I wonder if you over-estimate the 'lifestyle' problems tho--so much of that now has proven genetic causes, from high lipid levels and heart disease, to auto immune diseases--that can't be fixed with diet and exercise, and good clean livin'.

Obviously there are people with medical needs that require real medical and doctor intervention. But wouldn't you think that the number of people with the above afflictions would be greatly reduced if more people adopted "good clean livin'", as you put it? Or at least if they have those issues, being overall healthier would reduce the affect those afflictions have on those people?

Survival of the Fittest in medicine also has help from the government (our taxes), most of what's going on now is favoring the insurance monopoly, not really improving Care or cutting costs. We're also not helping physicians get a better education / pay off their education debt / provide their service unless they're in an insurance network. We're not helping employers get out from under the insurance vampire squeeze, but they still have to compete in a global market. IMO we're propping up the wrong 'industry'.

From both sides. The government feeds from one end, and those patients who could have avoided becoming and dependent on the medical state feed it from the other. The government and the medical industry are both fed by tax payers one way or the other. If people stop feeding it up on one end, then there is no need for it to get support from the other because it will start to shrink on it's own. How much more of a direct impact can a tax payer have on the medical industry then putting it on a diet so that when it does fail it doesn't require such large help that only the government can intervene?

Excess breeds waste. That works on a personal level as well as a corporate level.

The thing about Libertarianism that baffles me, is how the far right (FRIGHT) neo-conservatives have managed to bastardize the idea of liberty and fairness, and turned communitarianism into being a pinko commie. Everyone loves to scare granny about her Medicare, but that's one of our sssssocialism programs most everyone loves, and claims to want to keep.

I know this is really going to stir up some crap, but here it goes.

I have noticed that too. Something else I've noticed is how the far right loves to characterize every extreme situation (economy, climate, etc.) as part of a cycle. Is it too far out of the realm of possibility that sometimes the health of a capitalist system (not it's inherent goodness), can wax and wane as well, and may need a touch of "socialism" to bring it back into wack?

It's like the US is the teenager in the middle of an identity crisis, and we can't figure out who we want to be when we grow up. It's just easier to say No to everything, don't tell me what to doooo, you can't maaake meee!

Well, relatively speaking we are pretty young as a country.

[GGT]

If people 'stop feeding it from one end' then everyone needs to re-evaluate (1) expectations and (2) the number of middle men.

Begin with pregnancy....everyone seems to expect ultrasounds, genetic testing, glucose tolerance tests, private labor rooms in-patient (with tvs and companion accommodations), anesthesia and full monitoring, with one specialist after another, followed by a steak dinner for the parents. And that's just for a "normal labor and delivery". Add in IVF, chorionic villa sampling, amniocentesis, intervention in-utero for neonate abnormalities, then premie care; add in high risk mothers, C-sections.

Going back to simpler ways (also called Slow Medicine) doesn't jibe with our high expectations in a high tech world. It's almost considered a spectacular news story if a baby is born at home. Those who condone it as planned with mid-wives are considered reckless. "What if there's a problem? What if..."

The wisdom of Prevention is also criticized, often from insurance. They may not pay for birth control bills, or pediatric lipid testing, or mammograms in low risk groups under age 50, or a colonoscopy for a 30 yr old whose grandparent had colon cancer.....their goal is to reduce costs by reducing use of the system, not making it more efficient or pragmatic.

Durable medical wants their products used, big pharma wants their products prescribed, specialists want their services in demand, insurance wants everyone to buy their product, lawyers will find a way to make money too.

We may be a young country, but we've got around 80 million ready to become 'seniors. And we've known for at least one generation, if not more, that they'll live longer, and demand more intervention.

[Being]

People are not important unless they are near and dear to you or they hold a key to the door you want to get through.

[GGT]

Individualism run amok. 2HD is right, we might benefit from a little more sssocialism to balance it out.

[Being]

Individualism run amok. 2HD is right, we might benefit from a little more sssocialism to balance it out.

Did you read the whole story yet?

[Aimless]

Speaking of evolution and the survival of the fittest, I'm not sure that "good clean living" would be a great adaptation to modern day USA for everyone in that country.

[Aimless]

The wisdom of Prevention is also criticized, often from insurance. They may not pay for birth control bills, or pediatric lipid testing, or mammograms in low risk groups under age 50, or a colonoscopy for a 30 yr old whose grandparent had colon cancer.....

I have to question the wisdom of performing a colonoscopy in a very young man who lacks a clear and strong heredity for colon cancer and who isn't showing any symptoms. Colonoscopy as a screening procedure is, atm, kinda crazy

[2HD]

Speaking of evolution and the survival of the fittest, I'm not sure that "good clean living" would be a great adaptation to modern day USA for everyone in that country.

Please explain.

[2HD]

If people 'stop feeding it from one end' then everyone needs to re-evaluate (1) expectations and (2) the number of middle men.

I don't think the expectations of services rendered is as messed up as how much as the hospital's expectations of how much they think patients should pay for services.

I go to the doctor twice a year for a check up. I have a genetic liver disorder (or so they tell me, I've never shown any symptoms except fatigue, which could be anything.) Everytime I go, they take my blood. It takes a week to get the results back. I am always billed at least $800 for the blood tests. FOR BLOOD TESTS?

My mother-in-law slipped in the kitchen on Christmats Eve and hit her head on her kitched counter. She hit pretty hard and was afraid to get up or move. The ambulance charged her over $750 for a 20 minute ride to the hospital. She was in the emergency room for about 2 hours. They did two CAT scans. She left under her own power with a prescription for pain medication. They charged her over $17,000. REALLY?

Begin with pregnancy....everyone seems to expect ultrasounds, genetic testing, glucose tolerance tests, private labor rooms in-patient (with tvs and companion accommodations), anesthesia and full monitoring, with one specialist after another, followed by a steak dinner for the parents. And that's just for a "normal labor and delivery". Add in IVF, chorionic villa sampling, amniocentesis, intervention in-utero for neonate abnormalities, then premie care; add in high risk mothers, C-sections.

Going back to simpler ways (also called Slow Medicine) doesn't jibe with our high expectations in a high tech world. It's almost considered a spectacular news story if a baby is born at home. Those who condone it as planned with mid-wives are considered reckless. "What if there's a problem? What if..."

First of all, if you want costs related to pregnancy to go down, you should stop so much damn pregnancy, but that's another conversation.

This all kind of goes back to taking back control of your own health. If parents lived better, there would be less occurance of issues with the babies. Babies are another scary topic, just like Grandma. I don't think it's a bad idea to check the baby for everything that is standard when checking out a baby, but luxury suites and 3 course meals are ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, if someone is willing to pay for it, and it is available, then by all means go for it. Just don't make it part of the process and then bill people afterwards when they didn't have a say.

The wisdom of Prevention is also criticized, often from insurance. They may not pay for birth control bills, or pediatric lipid testing, or mammograms in low risk groups under age 50, or a colonoscopy for a 30 yr old whose grandparent had colon cancer.....their goal is to reduce costs by reducing use of the system, not making it more efficient or pragmatic.

If medical records were able to be related to each other the same way people are, then doctors would have the knowledge to give them an educated plan of attack if, say, someone whose family has a history of breast cancer or colon cancer comes in.

The insurance that I currenlty have through my employer will pay you for 2 "preventative" doctor visits. Pretty much bi-annual physicals. Everyone should do this anyway, IMO. The best maintenance is preventative.

Durable medical wants their products used, big pharma wants their products prescribed, specialists want their services in demand, insurance wants everyone to buy their product, lawyers will find a way to make money too.

And people just want to not be sick, hurt, or dying, and don't want to be charged an arm or a leg for those basic needs. It is deplorable how people are taken advantage of when they don't have any other choice but to go into debt to stay alive.

We may be a young country, but we've got around 80 million ready to become 'seniors. And we've known for at least one generation, if not more, that they'll live longer, and demand more intervention.

The part I'm curious about is: What do the insurance companies and medical conglomerates have planned for when the baby boomers die out, and the number of customers goes down considerably? They probably won't have to do anything since we have children with high cholesterol and people who's goal in life is to become the fattest people in the world. Literally.

[GGT]

I agree, the charges and billing practices are outrageous. Most people never know what they're really charged, or the cost shifting that goes on behind the scenes. They're ready to suspend logic when their only OOP cost for bypass surgery is a $15 co-pay. Most never add up all the premiums they and their employer paid out, and compare it to the services rendered.

In the future the insurers will still be part of the scheme, as long as longevity is extended. And as long as they still have a monopoly. Which makes me wonder why policies (like mine) won't help pay for, or even negotiate a discounted price for preventive measures (cancer screenings, antibiotics, birth control) or anything done outpatient.

Watching the votes last night, The Pursuits of life and liberty were mentioned a lot. Seemed to me the (R)s want to preserve our Right to be sicker, die earlier, or file for medical bankruptcy. Or to help others only if we feel like it, voluntarily. At least we'll be Freeee?

[Wraith]

I agree, the charges and billing practices are outrageous. Most people never know what they're really charged, or the cost shifting that goes on behind the scenes. They're ready to suspend logic when their only OOP cost for bypass surgery is a $15 co-pay. Most never add up all the premiums they and their employer paid out, and compare it to the services rendered.

And adding another level of indirection is supposed to help here?

In the future the insurers will still be part of the scheme, as long as longevity is extended. And as long as they still have a monopoly. Which makes me wonder why policies (like mine) won't help pay for, or even negotiate a discounted price for preventive measures (cancer screenings, antibiotics, birth control) or anything done outpatient.

They do. Insurers are always negotiating with hospitals and doctors to get costs down.

Watching the votes last night, The Pursuits of life and liberty were mentioned a lot. Seemed to me the (R)s want to preserve our Right to be sicker, die earlier, or file for medical bankruptcy.

[2HD]

And adding another level of indirection is supposed to help here?

Real reform wouldn't add anything but oversight, or motivate extortionist-style pricing to go down.

They do. Insurers are always negotiating with hospitals and doctors to get costs down.

And they lose ground a lot of the time. Or they are kept from adding value to coverages to keep the price of the current coverage under control.

[GGT]

And adding another level of indirection is supposed to help here?

They do. Insurers are always negotiating with hospitals and doctors to get costs down.

Hey, I didn't make the speeches in congress, just commented on them. If you want to eye-roll, do it for the (R) who stated emphatically that the US is a pro-life nation. But they must mean the unborn, because there didn't seem much concern for everyone else. Oh, unless it's Seniors (Don't Touch Medicare!)

My insurer does NOT negotiate outpatient provider prices for me; I don't have the benefit of being in a big group or employer-based group. When I get a bill it's very detailed, usually coming in pieces (one from the phlebotomy center, one from the courier, one from the lab itself, another from the ordering physician for interpretation). I know WHY a tier 2 CBC costs ME almost $200....does everyone else?

I noticed you changed your user title from uninsured to unaided. Should I roll my eyes about that?

[Wraith]

Hey, I didn't make the speeches in congress, just commented on them.

It was your comments that earned the eye-roll!

My insurer does NOT negotiate outpatient provider prices for me;

Maybe not, though I doubt it. Even if you don't see it, they probably still do negotiate with everyone. They usually have a list of prices for various procedures that they'll accept, and will refuse to pay anything more. But I won't try to claim all this is universal; maybe your insurance company doesn't. If you don't think they try to keep the prices down (benefits them more than you, so I don't understand why they wouldn't), maybe consider switching to someone who does?

If it matters at all, I get those very detailed bills too.

I noticed you changed your user title from uninsured to unaided. Should I roll my eyes about that?

I've changed it several times between those two also.

[GGT]

It was your comments that earned the eye-roll!

My comment was aimed at the pro-life anti-abortion people, and their hypocrisy. It's obvious they care more about the unborn and senior citizens (undead), than anyone in the middle.

Maybe not, though I doubt it. Even if you don't see it, they probably still do negotiate with everyone. They usually have a list of prices for various procedures that they'll accept, and will refuse to pay anything more. But I won't try to claim all this is universal; maybe your insurance company doesn't. If you don't think they try to keep the prices down (benefits them more than you, so I don't understand why they wouldn't), maybe consider switching to someone who does?

If it matters at all, I get those very detailed bills too.

Big difference b/w group and individual policies, Comprehensive and Catastrophic. That's part of the goal of 'reform', to make it easier for individuals to purchase, and have equal purchasing power as unions, large employers etc, which does NOT exist today.

I'd love to find an affordable individual policy that negotiates outpatient prices, without having to pay $15,000/yr, and still have my female 'parts' excluded from coverage. Know of any?

I've changed it several times between those two also.