Any surprise this happens at bastions of liberalism?

[Lewkowski]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/06/17...cmp=latestnews

In the Amherst case, the expelled student’s attorney is suing the school in federal court, where traditional rules of evidence have produced incriminating text messages sent by the alleged victim that appear to indicate she not only consented to, but initiated the sex. His attorney also alleges that the woman told campus investigators the sex began consensually, but that she revoked her consent during the act.

The suit seeks $75,000 and names the school, President Carolyn Martin and several officials for moving “with enormous speed to expel John Doe, eject him from the campus, and destroy his reputation.”

75k? Really? Go for punitive damages bro. Rape accusation 21 months after the alleged incident /boggle. What is the point of even having a 'tribunal' if the ONLY evidence they are willing to consider is the woman's testimony. Its no surprise that college campuses are hotbeds for false accusations. The false accusers are being paraded as heroes by liberals.

Considering the dramatic harm not only done to those falsely accused *but to those who are actually raped* its time that society got serious about dealing with those who make false accusations. Since it sounds like the police were never involved there is little that can be done criminally but civilly the accuser AND the school need to pay up.

[Timbuk2]

Lewk's usual liberal hurgle-burgle aside, and Fox's usual misinformation, exaggeration and falsehoods also aside, are there actual cases to answer here? Is there a spate of men falsely accused of rape on campuses? If so, why? What do these women gain by it? Women spurned or otherwise wronged by former lovers, who then seek a way to hurt them? Perhaps women who did consent but then felt ashamed by it, and so seek to distance themselves from the act by crying rape?

Do we know they are false claims? Or is actual rape prevalent?

I suspect, from what little I've read, that each case is different and unique, that rape does happen on campus, that men are falsely accused of it, and finally that by trying to paint all these cases with the same brush to push some weird LewkFox liberal conspiracy theory doesn't help rape victims nor those falsely-accused in the slightest.

Oh, and ...

The false accusers are being paraded as heroes by liberals.

Citation needed.

[RandBlade]

My understanding of the facts in the legal system is that in general more women (and men) who are raped go without ever seeing justice than there are the rare cases of successful false prosecutions. Besides the man accused should surely be innocent until proven guilty?

Bemused by the line that "all sex while intoxicated is rape" - if that was the case then in UK Universities about 90%+ of male and female students are raped during their time I suspect.

Also some rather ignorant conclusion to that Fox article, that the "First Amendment is being replaced ..." - what the hell does the right to free assembly and freedom of religion etc have to trials? Surely you meant the sixth (or fourth and fifth) amendment?

[Loki]

It's a problem in both directions. Many women don't report sexual abuse or aren't taken seriously by the police. Meanwhile, some campuses have "trials" of alleged abusers where the latter isn't allowed to defend themselves in any way.

[Wraith]

Also some rather ignorant conclusion to that Fox article, that the "First Amendment is being replaced ..." - what the hell does the right to free assembly and freedom of religion etc have to trials? Surely you meant the sixth (or fourth and fifth) amendment?

They were quoting Sommers there, who was talking about the problems of Title IX. People have been using Title IX to attack people who say things they don't like, for example filing two Title IX complaints against Prof. Laura Kipnis for criticizing Title IX complaints (she was cleared of the charges, but what a way to prove her point). Professor Sommers has also gotten some pretty disconcerting treatment when she's tried to speak on some campuses, though that's not Title IX related.

[Aimless]

Very surprising, "guilty until proven innocent" has lately been encountered most frequently among conservatives eager to defend cops who murder black people

I must admit I'm a little surprised and also kinda outraged by the fact that unis can meddle in things that should be left to real courts that have to follow at least some rules. I suspect that there are more victims who have their cases bungled/ignored by unis and cops than there are innocent people who are accused and have their lives ruined by the same idjits. Still messed up though.

[RandBlade]

No, "guilty until proven innocent" has lately been encountered most frequently amongst some eager to prosecute the cops.

[Flixy]

Calling for prosecution means you want to determine guilt or innocence though, otherwise you'd be eager for conviction

I would like to point out that innocent until proven guilty works both ways - if the guy isn't proven guilty and therefore innocent, that doesn't automatically mean it was a false accusation. Until you prove the girl made a false accusation she is also innocent, just because the guy didn't end up convicted doesn't mean it was a false report. And if suspects were given a bit more privacy instead of a perp walk, there'd be less damage to those falsely accused as well. But yes, if the college overreacted while lacking evidence, that should change.

Guess we're lucky he didn't get shot to begin with, after all, he was suspected of rape and thus a 'thug' according to some here.

[Loki]

The issue isn't convicting based on a lack of evidence; it's the inability of the accused to defend themselves at all. The process is systematically biased.

[Wraith]

I would like to point out that innocent until proven guilty works both ways - if the guy isn't proven guilty and therefore innocent, that doesn't automatically mean it was a false accusation. Until you prove the girl made a false accusation she is also innocent, just because the guy didn't end up convicted doesn't mean it was a false report. And if suspects were given a bit more privacy instead of a perp walk, there'd be less damage to those falsely accused as well. But yes, if the college overreacted while lacking evidence, that should change.

The problem with a lot of these cases is that they're totally extra-legal. They happen outside the system where none of the suspect's rights are respected, and the bar for conviction often isn't far above "being accused". It's a few people deciding to destroy the entire future of students as a side-job; not much more than a hobby. Sometimes the accused doesn't even know they've been accused until they've been convicted.

You're right though on presumption of innocence going both ways. I'm not totally concerned with the lack of convictions because proving a accusation was made falsely should be very difficult. But I bet this is the reason a lot of the high profile cases lately that have been proven false never got to real courts - because it would open up the accuser to charges of filing a false report, perjury, etc.

[LittleFuzzy]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/06/17...cmp=latestnews

In the Amherst case, the expelled student’s attorney is suing the school in federal court, where traditional rules of evidence have produced incriminating text messages sent by the alleged victim that appear to indicate she not only consented to, but initiated the sex. His attorney also alleges that the woman told campus investigators the sex began consensually, but that she revoked her consent during the act.

The suit seeks $75,000 and names the school, President Carolyn Martin and several officials for moving “with enormous speed to expel John Doe, eject him from the campus, and destroy his reputation.”

75k? Really? Go for punitive damages bro. Rape accusation 21 months after the alleged incident /boggle. What is the point of even having a 'tribunal' if the ONLY evidence they are willing to consider is the woman's testimony. Its no surprise that college campuses are hotbeds for false accusations. The false accusers are being paraded as heroes by liberals.

Considering the dramatic harm not only done to those falsely accused *but to those who are actually raped* its time that society got serious about dealing with those who make false accusations. Since it sounds like the police were never involved there is little that can be done criminally but civilly the accuser AND the school need to pay up.

Sounds to me like you ought to consider them lucky they weren't immediately shot or beaten to death by their accusers or civil-minded passers-by. Rape is a much more serious crime than petty theft, after all, and that's the burden of proof you insist on in theft cases, just the thought by others that they committed the crime. But I guess there is one important difference. These are middle and upper-class people, many of them white, while those whose deaths you cheer are usually neither. Since they're like you, they actually get the presumption of innocence rather than an instantly-reached and executed guilty verdict. You can't have it both ways Lewk. Either you require a properly-reached judicial verdict or you can praise having non-judicial authorities acting on their own. Choose one to represent the righteous rule of law.

[Steely Glint]

The issue isn't convicting based on a lack of evidence; it's the inability of the accused to defend themselves at all. The process is systematically biased.

No, the issue isn't the inability of the accused to defend themselves, it's the very fact that colleges are dealing with matters which should be dealt with exclusively by the legal system. I mean, WTF?

[RandBlade]

No, the issue isn't the inability of the accused to defend themselves, it's the very fact that colleges are dealing with matters which should be dealt with exclusively by the legal system. I mean, WTF?

Agreed. The colleges should say that if someone is convicted in a court of law they'll be expelled. Maybe suspend them pending a trial if necessary. Let the courts determine who is guilty and who is not. Colleges should be acting where they can to take preventative action - good lighting, education, night time security etc

Also the US insanity over alcohol that means adults have to drink on the sly doesn't help. When I was a student drinking we were drinking on campus in on campus bars with bouncers and medics available etc - everything was above board and honest. Prohibition doesn't work well at the best of times, prohibition of legal alcohol from legal adults is absolutely insane.

[Steely Glint]

I think my real question is why is that not happening. You can't just award yourself jurisdiction over an incredibly serious crime, then ignore law enforcement and deal with it yourselves. And how the fuck is mere expulsion an adequate punishment for rape? I just... I don't even... what?

[Loki]

No, the issue isn't the inability of the accused to defend themselves, it's the very fact that colleges are dealing with matters which should be dealt with exclusively by the legal system. I mean, WTF?

Whether or not someone gets expelled from college isn't entirely a legal issue.

[RandBlade]

Whether or not someone gets expelled from college isn't entirely a legal issue.

Whether someone is guilty of a crime is entirely legal though. Colleges shouldn't be acting as judge, jury and executioner over someones life like that - that is what the legal system is for. Let the courts decide who is guilty and colleges can act against guilty individuals.

Colleges can take actions to make their environment safer without resorting to "making an example" out of someone without a trial.

[Wraith]

I think my real question is why is that not happening. You can't just award yourself jurisdiction over an incredibly serious crime, then ignore law enforcement and deal with it yourselves. And how the fuck is mere expulsion an adequate punishment for rape? I just... I don't even... what?

http://knowyourix.org/title-ix/title-ix-the-basics/

[Steely Glint]

It doesn't appear to say anywhere "Your college should not take reports of sexual violence to the police, and should instead attempt to deal with them itself, and do so in the most chuckleheaded manner possible", soooo

[RandBlade]

This seems to be the offending article:

4. Your school must have an established procedure for handling complaints of sex discrimination, sexual harassment or sexual violence. Every school must have a Title IX Coordinator who manages complaints. The Coordinator’s contact information should be publicly accessible on the school’s website. If you decide to file a complaint, your school must promptly investigate it regardless of whether you report to the police (though a police investigation may very briefly delay the school’s investigation if law enforcement is gathering evidence). A school may not wait for the conclusion of a criminal proceeding and should conclude its own investigation within a semester’s time (the 2011 Office for Civil Rights Title IX guidance proposes 60 days as an appropriate time-frame). The school should use a “preponderance of the evidence” standard to determine the outcome of a complaint, meaning discipline should result if it is more likely than not that discrimination, harassment and/or violence occurred. The final decision should be provided to you and the accused in writing. Both of you have the right to appeal the decision.

If this is being done as intended then that is messed up.

[Wraith]

Sorry, I need to break your quote in half.

"Your college should not take reports of sexual violence to the police,

You're right, it doesn't say that. Though I think part of the problem here is that it doesn't say the opposite of that either.

and should instead attempt to deal with them itself, and do so in the most chuckleheaded manner possible

Actually, I'd say that this is pretty much what 4-8 says.

Most of these problems originate with colleges trying to be compliant with Title IX. The differences in how bad it is by school comes down to how they interpret this interpretation of Title IX.

It's an example of good intentions leading to bad outcomes. A lot of the things listed on that site are good ideas, if you assume that the accused is always guilty and the accuser is always a real victim. Unfortunately that assumption does not reflect reality.

[Steely Glint]

Edit: @Randblade:

Yes. Clearly there are types of sexual harassment which do not cross the line into criminality but which would be nevertheless lead to disciplinary actions in a workplace and so it's not unreasonable to expect colleges to have similar procedures, but once you get into criminal acts such as sexual assault and rape then, nope, you have to take that straight to the police. The insane thing is their bungling could hypothetically prejudice a criminal trial.

@Wraith:

You're right, it doesn't say that. Though I think part of the problem here is that it doesn't say the opposite of that either.

Most rapists go on to offend time and time again. It is morally unacceptable to fail to report an allegation of rape to law enforcement. Only if the victim absolutely insists they don't want it taken to law enforcement would I consider non-reporting acceptable. I can't really see a scenario where a victim doesn't want to go to the police but is happy to go to their college, but I'm not an expert on the psychology of rape victims.

It's an example of good intentions leading to bad outcomes. A lot of the things listed on that site are good ideas, if you assume that the accused is always guilty and the accuser is always a real victim. Unfortunately that assumption does not reflect reality.

As I said to Randblade, they're alright for dealing with forms of harassment which aren't criminal. And some of the sanctions put in place against the accused student should only last as long as it takes to establish the merit of the case. Others are things you shouldn't be doing anyway; i.e the 'no retaliatory behaviour or harassment' clause.

[RandBlade]

if you assume that the accused is always guilty

Which goes contrary to all justice ...

[Wraith]

Only if the victim absolutely insists they don't want it taken to law enforcement would I consider non-reporting acceptable. I can't really see a scenario where a victim doesn't want to go to the police but is happy to go to their college, but I'm not an expert on the psychology of rape victims.

If it's a crime, I don't think we should be allowing or encouraging extra-judicial means of justice. Our legal system is flawed, yes, but it's what we've got, and it can be worked on and improved. I can think of reasons why someone would be willing to go to the college but not the police, but it's just too dangerous to allow anyone to shortcut the entire legal system.

I'd say it's fine to encourage or make certain requirements that schools provide resources to victims who are unwilling to go to the police - provide counseling, let them rearrange their class schedule, move them to a different dorm, or basically do whatever to help that victim. But if they're accusing someone of a crime and aren't willing to go through the justice system, that should take any sort of punishment of the accused off the table.

[RandBlade]

Agreed with all you said above. I also think it's abhorrent to use a system of "preponderance of evidence" rather than "beyond reasonable doubt" to label someone a rapist and kick them out of their education.

[Loki]

The preponderance of evidence wouldn't even be such a bad standard if both sides were actually allowed to present evidence.

[Aimless]

I may be missing something but title ix doesn't preclude a criminal investigation and trial, but it requires unis to also make available a separate avenue for redress. After all, in the bit RB quoted, it only says that the uni may not wait for the real trial to conclude if that's likely to take too long.

[GGT]

What is the point of even having a 'tribunal' if the ONLY evidence they are willing to consider is the woman's testimony.

As if university "tribunals" can/should replace the formal legal system if only they operated more like real courts?

Considering the dramatic harm not only done to those falsely accused *but to those who are actually raped* its time that society got serious about dealing with those who make false accusations. Since it sounds like the police were never involved there is little that can be done criminally but civilly the accuser AND the school need to pay up.

It's high time society got serious about sexual assault and rape....and not let 'false accusers' hijack the narrative like you're doing, Lewk.

You could be outraged that universities are using internal "tribunals" to replace official legal proceedings in the first place. Or that Campus Police will often discourage any complainant from calling/involving municipal police (the "real" cops) because it skews their safety ratings and might scare away future students, and ultimately their job security. And you're not outraged that thousands of unprocessed rape kits are literally rotting in police departments, many over a decade old, either.....

If you thought this was a good example to explain/justify your hatred of "Liberalism", you've failed. If you really cared about sexual abuse and/or rape victims, and wanted to discuss how to distinguish 'real victims' from 'false accusers', you could have started a thread about the Duggar Family. But you didn't.

[Lewkowski]

Sounds to me like you ought to consider them lucky they weren't immediately shot or beaten to death by their accusers or civil-minded passers-by. Rape is a much more serious crime than petty theft, after all, and that's the burden of proof you insist on in theft cases, just the thought by others that they committed the crime. But I guess there is one important difference. These are middle and upper-class people, many of them white, while those whose deaths you cheer are usually neither. Since they're like you, they actually get the presumption of innocence rather than an instantly-reached and executed guilty verdict. You can't have it both ways Lewk. Either you require a properly-reached judicial verdict or you can praise having non-judicial authorities acting on their own. Choose one to represent the righteous rule of law.

What are you bleating about? I've never suggested people should randomly assault people on the basis of an accusation. Now if they are invading your home, your property or your place of business by all means lock and load and task out the trash.

[GGT]

In other words, you're amenable to people who shoot to protect their home/property/business from "invaders". Even if it's not totally rational, you're willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. But when it comes to victims of sexual abuse or rape.....you set up a whole new criteria?

[Lewkowski]

GGT why would you think this is a discussion about the problem of rape. While false accusations make it harder to prosecute real rapes (personally I'm good with the ole fry'em method assuming the evidence is fairly air tight) the gist of it is the insanity that liberals represent. Colleges are little tiny microcosms of what liberals would like the rest of reality to be like. I think its high time we stop subsidizing them and allowing generation after generation to be influenced by their shit.