Which is real, people or money?

[Aimless]

People is not real, people ARE real.

[Being]

People is not real, people ARE real.

People are a group and a group is real.

[GGT]

No, this is a valid discussion. Value is only in our heads. If we don't exist does value?

Off topic -- Like OG said, diamonds are shiny.

Never said this wasn't a valid (or potentially valuable) discussion.

We do exist, others used to but they're dead, life is real. Value is in our heads only because our minds change over time.

Which brings me to Occam's Razor, cut to the chase. Time is valuable, but how is time defined? It's limited as a resource, it exists outside ourselves, even tho we spend vast amounts of time trying to define and conserve it, working around it/with it....is time just money?

Am I 'wasting time' by talking about time's value, on a lazy Sunday?

[Aimless]

is this some sort of retarded argument intended to justify the summary dismissal of values and opinions with which you disagree?

[GGT]

is this some sort of retarded argument intended to justify the summary dismissal of values and opinions with which you disagree?

Did you mean me or Being?

I've been fairly well caught up in the contextual meanings of time, value, people, and money. From our healthcare reform debate to our financial reform debate......I see them as all interconnected concepts. Couple that with all the countries with budget deficits and growing populations of elders, fights about taxes-liberty/freedom-sssocialism, and it takes on its own life.

[EyeKhan]

what? grrr, take that to the singles or doubles threads then (another thing I don't really understand....)



VALUE is not all in our heads. Diamonds are valuable because they're hard to mine, very hard to craft (just ask Bitter), and only the descriminating eye can tell if it's cubic zirconia (synthetic). Diamonds are used in special tools because they can cut glass and other materials, without being destroyed. ie they've been around 'forever' and last longer. Diamond dust is probably also valuable. At least it can be formed into another useful compound, unlike other fossil products that become pollution when burned....?

Value IS all in our heads. A diamond is useless. If I you were stranded alone out in the middle of the Alaskan Wilderness, with just the clothes you're wearing right now, what would you rather have - a billion dollars in diamonds or a Satellite phone, camping gear, and food for a month? Value is only what some idiot is willing to pay for something and what people are willing to pay is based on cultural context. It isn't set in stone, its based mostly on collective opinioni. Ask anyone trying to sell a house these days.

[Aimless]

I obviously mean boing

[GGT]

choobs, you forget Carbon. Alaska has carbon that's mine-able as oil. It's not just about diamonds as engagement rings ya know....

Unless you want to say only the commodities of food and shelter have inherent value due to their immediacy. I tried a thread about that, Pursuits. Didn't go very far.

[Aimless]

Yes, Chaloobi would assemble a giant oil-drill and set up a plant and --> --> ... --> -->

... --> --> buy food and clothes and finally flee Alaska

[GGT]

What's that got to do with people and money in context of survival? He landed me in Alaska against my will. Flawed from the onset.

[GGT]

Value IS all in our heads. A diamond is useless. If I you were stranded alone out in the middle of the Alaskan Wilderness, with just the clothes you're wearing right now, what would you rather have - a billion dollars in diamonds or a Satellite phone, camping gear, and food for a month? Value is only what some idiot is willing to pay for something and what people are willing to pay is based on cultural context. It isn't set in stone, its based mostly on collective opinioni. Ask anyone trying to sell a house these days.

Firstly, no one in their right mind is "stranded alone in Alaskan wilderness". If you're talking natives who've been there for centuries, they and only the clothes on their backs, they'd laugh if you offered them either a billion "dollars" or the satellite phone. They probably already have food for a whole season, not just a month.

But if you say "we'll give you a billion dollars, so you can buy ski mobiles that run on gas, in exchange for all your dogs and sleds, and all your whales and fish......then you can ship in pre-fab homes and get out of your igloos....processed food made in other places.....and you'll have to run all that on fuel oil or fossil fuel too.....fluctuating with global costs. Then we also get all your underground mineral and resource rights....."

Perception is Reality.

[Being]

I obviously mean boing

This is not an argument; it is a discussion. Is it retarded?

[Aimless]

as i see it it is a discussion centered around a belief that you seem to be using as an argument intended to justify the summary dismissal of [see previous page]

[Being]

But you haven't voted or even commented on the question.

edit: Hint...people who refuse to answer this question are generally considered to be sociopaths.

[Aimless]

you've already provided your answer, and i have commented on that answer. you haven't answered MY question, I note.

[Being]

you've already provided your answer, and i have commented on that answer. you haven't answered MY question, I note.

is this some sort of retarded argument intended to justify the summary dismissal of values and opinions with which you disagree?

Fine, I'll just destroy the thread by telling you it is a tool for evaluation.

[Aimless]

But it isn't a very good tool for evaluation. What is it intended to measure? Does it measure that variable accurately and reliably? How many will agree to being "evaluated"?

You may wish to divide us arbitrarily into two groups, but to what end? Merely to perpetuate--or even to aggravate!--the war between the good and loki??

[Being]

But it isn't a very good tool for evaluation. What is it intended to measure? Does it measure that variable accurately and reliably? How many will agree to being "evaluated"?

You may wish to divide us arbitrarily into two groups, but to what end? Merely to perpetuate--or even to aggravate!--the war between the good and loki??

I don't want to give it all away yet. Please vote. Answer the question honestly.

[Dreadnaught]

An above-average number of people have complained that this thread is unbecoming for the Debate and Discussion forum. It sounds like some people have a "depth of discussion" standard for what gets posted where. It's an interesting idea. Being, would you be okay if I moved this to general chat or do you think this is a really strong point to actually debate and discuss?

[EyeKhan]

choobs, you forget Carbon. Alaska has carbon that's mine-able as oil. It's not just about diamonds as engagement rings ya know....

Unless you want to say only the commodities of food and shelter have inherent value due to their immediacy. I tried a thread about that, Pursuits. Didn't go very far.

Yes, Chaloobi would assemble a giant oil-drill and set up a plant and --> --> ... --> -->

... --> --> buy food and clothes and finally flee Alaska

Firstly, no one in their right mind is "stranded alone in Alaskan wilderness". If you're talking natives who've been there for centuries, they and only the clothes on their backs, they'd laugh if you offered them either a billion "dollars" or the satellite phone. They probably already have food for a whole season, not just a month.

But if you say "we'll give you a billion dollars, so you can buy ski mobiles that run on gas, in exchange for all your dogs and sleds, and all your whales and fish......then you can ship in pre-fab homes and get out of your igloos....processed food made in other places.....and you'll have to run all that on fuel oil or fossil fuel too.....fluctuating with global costs. Then we also get all your underground mineral and resource rights....."

Perception is Reality.

Are you two totally high or what? FFSake!

[GGT]

We were bored. Procrastinating. What were YOU doing?

[ar81]

VALUE is not all in our heads.

Indeed ther are two types of concepts of value:

• Value of use: It is given by how useful a good is, given its features (value NOT in our heads).
• Exchange value:It is based on perceived value (value in our heads).

You may think it is Ok to define value as exchange value, but it creates a macroeconomical problem.

Example:

For example, the value of use of a pair of shoes is that it serves as cover for our feet. Let's say it's value of use is $40. But marketing presents this product like a cool and trendy thing for successful people and they sell it for $1000 (exchange value). You bought those shoes for $1000 and suddenly a global crisis hits and you need to sell your shoes. During crisis exchange value will go down to its value of use. So you will have to sell it for $40. Where did the rest of the money go? The gap between value of use and exchange value is a toxic asset, fake money that existed in your mind only. If you paid $1000 for a pair of shoes which true value was $40, you did not pay for $1000 value. Price is what you pay, value is what you receive. So you paid $1000 for a $40 value.

Bubble assets

You realize when an asset bubble comes when value of use starts to depart from exchange value. It is that simple. Value of use is the price you would pay in a time of crisis with a tight budget. Why did houses in US saw their value diminished? Because houses were bought using exchange value and sold using value of use.

Macroeconomical problem of using exchange value

In macroeconomic terms exchange value is useless if you want to calculate creation of value added. Value added comes from physical transformation of goods, from a cheaper and useless raw material (like steel plates and rubber) to a more expensive and useful product (like a car). Profit comes when companies seize this gap to make profit. Financial companies do not produce any value added, since their inventory is money and money can't add value to itself, so the only way to make profit is to take money from people's pockets using a contractual obligation. Currently GDP is not a real measure of value added, because it measures transactions only. GDP reflects exchange value, not value of use or value added, and this is why insurance companies that produce nothing represent 16% of US GDP.

Probably exchange value is so widely used because of a microeconomical vision of economy and because it is more favorable to make more money by making people believe something has more value than the real value it has, using marketing techniques. How do they make you pay more? Using these manipulation techniques: Reuters: 10 Common and Effective Emotional Triggers

The problems of using exchange value is that economy becomes more fragile as it relies on people's emotions, and you are likely to see unnecessary crisis caused by irrational behavior, and also it creates a problem to spot inflationary/deflationary pressures and act accordingly.

How exchange value misleads monetary policy

M x V = P x Q

where

M: Amount of money in the economy ($)
V: Velocity of flow of money (how many times)
P: Price of goods ($/unit)
Q: Quantity produced (units)

If you use exchange value, where people pays more for less value, it inflates P, making the authorities to believe there is a need to implement recessive policies to restrict liquidity of the economy. The problem with asset bubbles is that if you measure exchange value it makes bubbles invisible until they pop, and also it misleads the government monetary policy. As markets are interconnected, the gap between exchange value and value of use was passed to other markets, transferring the losses to third parties, including US taxpayers.

So the damage is double. Not only a loss is produced by the toxic assets that result from the gap betwen value of use and exchange value, but also figures mislead monetary policies.

Diamonds are valuable because they're hard to mine, very hard to craft (just ask Bitter), and only the descriminating eye can tell if it's cubic zirconia (synthetic). Diamonds are used in special tools because they can cut glass and other materials, without being destroyed. ie they've been around 'forever' and last longer. Diamond dust is probably also valuable. At least it can be formed into another useful compound, unlike other fossil products that become pollution when burned....?

So what about the monopoly of DeBeers?
Read this: De Beers and Beyond:The History of the International Diamond Cartel

[aoshi]

An above-average number of people have complained that this thread is unbecoming for the Debate and Discussion forum. It sounds like some people have a "depth of discussion" standard for what gets posted where. It's an interesting idea. Being, would you be okay if I moved this to general chat or do you think this is a really strong point to actually debate and discuss?

I think this could be an interesting discussion if Being would just put it out there about exactly what we're talking about. There's obviously some interesting topics here, just not being fleshed out and instead being left vague (perhaps intentionally?).

[Aimless]

It doesn't matter what you think, there are clear and objective criteria for what goes and what doesn't, in this forum. Haven't you read the FAQ?

[Being]

I think this could be an interesting discussion if Being would just put it out there about exactly what we're talking about. There's obviously some interesting topics here, just not being fleshed out and instead being left vague (perhaps intentionally?).

Yes, I am being intentionally vague because the ideas can't be discussed without voter participation since the results of the votes are the ideas to be discussed. 7 votes isn't worth discussing. It could have been interesting though.

Please delete the thread.

[aoshi]

Well maybe everyone not voting is the answer itself!

[Being]

Well maybe everyone not voting is the answer itself!

See post #44.

[EyeKhan]

We were bored. Procrastinating. What were YOU doing?

I was avoiding putting together my tax information.

An above-average number of people have complained that this thread is unbecoming for the Debate and Discussion forum. It sounds like some people have a "depth of discussion" standard for what gets posted where. It's an interesting idea. Being, would you be okay if I moved this to general chat or do you think this is a really strong point to actually debate and discuss?

IMO you are right, this doesn't belong here. And I also think with something this clear, you should just go and do it. If it was the wrong decision we can sort it out as a community later.

[GGT]

I was avoiding putting together my tax information.

Same here. It was either that or clearing tree debris.

IMO you are right, this doesn't belong here. And I also think with something this clear, you should just go and do it. If it was the wrong decision we can sort it out as a community later.

What's this, moderating by popular opinion? Since I can't tell any more, I'll put my threads in GC and someone can move them to D & D if they meet "the standards". I guess. Like the one on getting a bonus, that I thought was really idle chat.

[EyeKhan]

What's this, moderating by popular opinion?

Hey. The question was posted and I put in my 2 cents. That's not moderating, that's me saying what I think. Silly.