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Thread: TRUMP 2016

  1. #3961
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post

    Bit of a sore spot?

    Nah.
    I wonder if Graydon Carter (editor at Vanity Fair) still gets letters from Trump wherein he shows off the size of his fingers.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  2. #3962
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/fbi-fail...g-ap-1.3694464

    Unsure how many of these should've been notified.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  3. #3963
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Twitter has become a misnomer and a paradox. Trump is a Twit-Err-er who uses it like his own personal news outlet. And news outlets "report" his tweets because he doesn't give press conferences, and the WH briefings are a joke.

    MAGA = Manipulate America's General Audience? Make Another Great Autocrat?

  4. #3964
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    I'm just going to leave this here for all your viewing pleasure:

    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  5. #3965
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Hope is the denial of reality

  6. #3966
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    LOL.

    I think Abramson needs to get a dictionary and look up the word boast. Klyushin has boasted rather than confessed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #3967
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I'm sorry, you're acting as if you've revealed something surprising. If you're going to criticize him then at least do it properly by looking at his claims in context rather than posting isolated claims that, let's be frank, evoke some of your own favorite strategies.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  8. #3968
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Are you serious? The guy regularly makes absurd claims on the basis of incredibly weak (or non-existent) evidence. That's his MO. Sometimes it's much easier to see he's talking out of his behind.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  9. #3969
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    I don't think he is making absurd claims. I've believed that Trump is/was involved in a criminal conspiracy with Russia since before the election.

    I do agree that some of the evidence he has posted is not up to the demands he's placing on it (i.e google translations of tweets he says exists, but doesn't link to), but I've also yet to see any serious refutation from you or Fuzzy of the general substance of what he's saying. Just demands that we don't take him seriously because he is, according to you, a conspiracy nut.
    Truth serves them
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  10. #3970
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    I am absolutely serious. While his reasoning about Klyushin is indeed based on extremely circumstantial evidence, it is nevertheless based on more than just Klyushin's boasting, as is indicated by one of the linked threads. He makes unjustifiably strong inferences but his habit is not in principle very different from inferring various things from currency fluctuations immediately following the Brexit referendum. Like I said, you have to take it for what it is. Abramson's approach is to piece together a compelling narrative from disparate facts and observations that others have reported. Over the course of this process he makes tenuous links appear stronger than more cautious observers would, afaict based on the belief that weak evidence becomes stronger if it fits into a compelling narrative that is believed a priori to be true and considered to be supported by many other lines of evidence of varying degrees of quality. Although questionable, this is a common belief and I believe you'll find that you yourself have, on many occasions in the past, committed yourself to similar approaches.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  11. #3971
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I am absolutely serious. While his reasoning about Klyushin is indeed based on extremely circumstantial evidence, it is nevertheless based on more than just Klyushin's boasting, as is indicated by one of the linked threads. He makes unjustifiably strong inferences but his habit is not in principle very different from inferring various things from currency fluctuations immediately following the Brexit referendum. Like I said, you have to take it for what it is. Abramson's approach is to piece together a compelling narrative from disparate facts and observations that others have reported. Over the course of this process he makes tenuous links appear stronger than more cautious observers would, afaict based on the belief that weak evidence becomes stronger if it fits into a compelling narrative that is believed a priori to be true and considered to be supported by many other lines of evidence of varying degrees of quality. Although questionable, this is a common belief and I believe you'll find that you yourself have, on many occasions in the past, committed yourself to similar approaches.
    His shtick is combining a whole lot of info into a narrative. He's unreliable when creating a narrative. That's a reason to dismiss his arguments. Do you have no standards?

    You're just whatabouting now. Yes, analysis that comes right after an event is usually less than reliable. How's that an excuse to use a similar quality of evidence months after an event?

    I apply a far higher burden of evidence when using my real name. I don't expect anyone to use what I say here as definitive evidence of some kind of a serious crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    I don't think he is making absurd claims. I've believed that Trump is/was involved in a criminal conspiracy with Russia since before the election.

    I do agree that some of the evidence he has posted is not up to the demands he's placing on it (i.e google translations of tweets he says exists, but doesn't link to), but I've also yet to see any serious refutation from you or Fuzzy of the general substance of what he's saying. Just demands that we don't take him seriously because he is, according to you, a conspiracy nut.
    It's not an unreasonable belief. But it's one that requires a substantial amount of evidence to be made in public, especially by someone claiming expertise in the area.

    So the fact that he spreads conspiracies and uses flimsy evidence doesn't discredit him in your eyes? Do you not care about a source's reputation?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #3972
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    I am going to preface this by pointing out that while Loki has called him a conspiracy theorist or the next closest thing, I have not. I don't think he is one. I think he's obsessed and he gets erroneously fixated on minor or irrelevant material in his effort to make sure we don't forget anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Abramson's approach is to piece together a compelling narrative from disparate facts and observations that others have reported. Over the course of this process he makes tenuous links appear stronger than more cautious observers would, afaict based on the belief that weak evidence becomes stronger if it fits into a compelling narrative that is believed a priori to be true and considered to be supported by many other lines of evidence of varying degrees of quality.
    You have just classically described how the conspiracy theorist builds their web of delusion.
    It's the hallmark of a solid conspiracy theory that everything fits together into the whole, that it's all connected. Which is one of the signs that it's a conspiracy theory because the real world is messier than that. Even in science and math
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  13. #3973
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    It's not an unreasonable belief. But it's one that requires a substantial amount of evidence to be made in public, especially by someone claiming expertise in the area.
    There is a substantial amount of evidence out there that Trump did a conspiracy. There's new story comes out about it approximately every two weeks. I dunno if you heard of this guy - Muller? Meller? Milller? Something like that. Anyway he's doing an investigation on it, so apparently he reckons there might be something to it and I heard he's a pretty serious guy.

    This goes back to the last time I had this conversation with wiggin and Fuzzy - are you really just going to sit there any pretend that these claims by Abramson are just being made in a vacuum? Like, we don't already know a ton about what went on with Trump and Russia, and that Abramson is the first person in the world to think, hey, maybe 2016 wasn't entirely above board? Like he's the first person to suggest that certain events in 2013 might be related to 2016?

    So the fact that he spreads conspiracies and uses flimsy evidence doesn't discredit him in your eyes? Do you not care about a source's reputation?
    He's not a 'source'. A 'source' is someone who says X happened and expects you to take them at their word.

    He's laying out a chain of reasoning, and providing evidence. He has shown his working. It doesn't matter who he is, if he's wrong you should be able to actually show us the flaws in his reasoning. But you haven't. You tried with the 'actual text of the scope of Mueller's investigation ' thing, but that was based on a deliberately narrow reading of the point he was trying to make, so no marks for that one.

    I think we've all grown out of the stage of quoting logical fallacies at each other, but that's like a textbook ad hominem right there.
    Truth serves them
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    "For those who cling to this domination will partake in its fall"


  14. #3974
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    There is a substantial amount of evidence out there that Trump did a conspiracy. There's new story comes out about it approximately every two weeks. I dunno if you heard of this guy - Muller? Meller? Milller? Something like that. Anyway he's doing an investigation on it, so apparently he reckons there might be something to it and I heard he's a pretty serious guy.

    This goes back to the last time I had this conversation with wiggin and Fuzzy - are you really just going to sit there any pretend that these claims by Abramson are just being made in a vacuum? Like, we don't already know a ton about what went on with Trump and Russia, and that Abramson is the first person in the world to think, hey, maybe 2016 wasn't entirely above board? Like he's the first person to suggest that certain events in 2013 might be related to 2016?
    Just because there might really have been a conspiracy doesn't say anything about the quality of Abramson's evidence for such a conspiracy. Most of what he presents is either misleading or unrelated to the argument he's making.

    He's not a 'source'. A 'source' is someone who says X happened and expects you to take them at their word.

    He's laying out a chain of reasoning, and providing evidence. He has shown his working. It doesn't matter who he is, if he's wrong you should be able to actually show us the flaws in his reasoning. But you haven't. You tried with the 'actual text of the scope of Mueller's investigation ' thing, but that was based on a deliberately narrow reading of the point he was trying to make, so no marks for that one.

    I think we've all grown out of the stage of quoting logical fallacies at each other, but that's like a textbook ad hominem right there.
    Um, questioning the credibility and credentials of someone making an argument is not ad hominem. Ad hominem is attacking someone for reasons unrelated to the argument. It's perfectly reasonable to dismiss an argument by someone who's not qualified to make that argument and has a history of making terrible arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    You have just classically described how the conspiracy theorist builds their web of delusion.
    It's the hallmark of a solid conspiracy theory that everything fits together into the whole, that it's all connected. Which is one of the signs that it's a conspiracy theory because the real world is messier than that. Even in science and math
    That's exactly what I meant. Everything about Abramson's 100-tweet threads shouts conspiracy. A lot of vaguely related evidence that is merged into a neat whole through a whole lot of tortured logic.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  15. #3975
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Just because there might really have been a conspiracy doesn't say anything about the quality of Abramson's evidence for such a conspiracy.
    Though it does undermine your argument Abramson shouldn't be believed because he's saying there's a conspiracy.

    Most of what he presents is either misleading or unrelated to the argument he's making.
    I'm sure you're pretty busy right now and will get around to providing examples soon.

    Um, questioning the credibility and credentials of someone making an argument is not ad hominem. Ad hominem is attacking someone for reasons unrelated to the argument. It's perfectly reasonable to dismiss an argument by someone who's not qualified to make that argument and has a history of making terrible arguments.
    If I have a history of being terrible at maths, according to Loki, and then I say 2 + 2 = 4, then... 2 + 2 doesn't equal 4 any more? The entire mathematical structure of the universe changes when I utter those words?

    If his arguments aren't reasonable, you should be able to tell me why they aren't reasonable and why the connections he's making don't follow. Simply repeating that he's not credible doesn't cut it.

    I mean, if you just can't be bothered I'd get that.

    But if you're trying to pull a fast one because you're not comfortable with the implications, re: how debased US political culture actually is behind the veneer of Very Serious People having Very Serious And Very Non-Partisan Discussions and Not Coming to Hasty Conclusions About Other Very Serious People Being, For Example, Utterly Corrupt then I shall be cross.
    Truth serves them
    Embrace and defend her case
    Part flattery, part threats
    "For those who cling to this domination will partake in its fall"


  16. #3976
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Trump's now retweeting Britain's evil (my term) "far right" hate group "Britain First" which is a despicable anti-Islam organisation that split from the BNP as the BNP wasn't extreme enough for them.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42166663
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  17. #3977
    ======== Timbuk2's Avatar
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    Just when you thought the low-rent President's Twitter escapades couldn't sink any lower.

    This is appalling.

    It was Coulter who Tweeted the original video - Trump follows Coulter on Twitter. Sort of xenophobic bigot Trump admires I suppose. And now he's Re-Tweeting videos of a group known for going into the streets in gangs and hunting anyone who looks a bit Muslim.
    Last edited by Timbuk2; 11-29-2017 at 04:56 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  18. #3978
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Lewkowski for president.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  19. #3979
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    'Britain first' was what the guy who murdered Joe Cox shouted before he killed her.
    Truth serves them
    Embrace and defend her case
    Part flattery, part threats
    "For those who cling to this domination will partake in its fall"


  20. #3980
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    People all over the west are loving this.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  21. #3981
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Trump's now retweeting Britain's evil (my term) "far right" hate group "Britain First" which is a despicable anti-Islam organisation that split from the BNP as the BNP wasn't extreme enough for them.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42166663
    Like I wouldn't mind retweeting a video where it shows Isalmic Terrorists doing shitty things but the video is not even factually correct. Its like he doesn't even do more than just take a cursory glance at something before mouthing off.

  22. #3982
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    They're infamous liars that are never factually correct. They don't give a shit about whether something's true or not just want to cause hste and division.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  23. #3983
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    I must say I can definitely get behind the idea to give James O'Keefe the Putziler Price for excellence in journalistic self-pwnage.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  24. #3984
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    I may not respect her much but I'm glad even Theresa May publicly criticised Trump for sharing the vile Britain First videos. Now he's attacking her.

    A public spat between the PM and President is normally only for fictional Christmas movie Love Actually, if there's one thing that will be as threatening to May as "being savaged by a dead sheep" it is a Twitter spat with this POTUS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #3985
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Theresa May must be feeling pretty pleased with herself right now.

    Note to world leaders: if you want to be popular, start a twitter feud with Donald Trump.
    Truth serves them
    Embrace and defend her case
    Part flattery, part threats
    "For those who cling to this domination will partake in its fall"


  26. #3986
    ======== Timbuk2's Avatar
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    Indeed, it's quite something when you have politicians from other countries calling May 'A Great World Leader'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  27. #3987
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    They're infamous liars that are never factually correct. They don't give a shit about whether something's true or not just want to cause hste and division.
    Which is a problem because Islamic Terror is a big issue and Trump picked quite possibly the stupidest way to to shine attention on it.

  28. #3988
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Well indeed. Islamic Terror is a problem but hate groups like Britain First that spread nothing but false lies undermine that. If you need to lie about your opponent rather than find real issues to criticise then that implies your opponent is not actually all that bad and tarnishes the real issues as lies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  29. #3989
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    The New York Times has a piece about Trump trying obstruct justice again:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/30/u...?smid=tw-share

    The silence from the GOP is, of course, deafening.
    Truth serves them
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    "For those who cling to this domination will partake in its fall"


  30. #3990
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Flynn got off light. I'd be amazed if he's not cooperating with the feds.
    Hope is the denial of reality

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