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Thread: TRUMP 2016

  1. #4801
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Fucking hell. Fine, the US doesn't have a direct democracy, it's a representative democracy, AKA a republic. Happy with that?
    No.

    The UK and the Netherlands [and Canada and Australia and ...] don't have direct democracy, we have representative democracy too. Does that make us republics?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  2. #4802
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    I'm not familiar with the Dutch but since the UK's constitutional "monarchy" places so much power and authority in the hands of the head of government and basically none in the head of state, I don't see any real difference between you and a parliamentary republic. The idea that your government is the opposite of Germany, or Switzerland, or the US, or Taiwan is ridiculous.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  3. #4803
    That's no moon. EyeKhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No.

    The UK and the Netherlands [and Canada and Australia and ...] don't have direct democracy, we have representative democracy too. Does that make us republics?
    Oh FFS.
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  4. #4804
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I'm not familiar with the Dutch but since the UK's constitutional "monarchy" places so much power and authority in the hands of the head of government and basically none in the head of state, I don't see any real difference between you and a parliamentary republic. The idea that your government is the opposite of Germany, or Switzerland, or the US, or Taiwan is ridiculous.
    We are all democracies regardless of whether the head of state is appointed, elected or inherited. In that sense we're not opposite because we are all democracies. The opposite of democracy in that sense is perhaps a dictatorship etc

    However none of that is what makes up a republic. A republic is a nation that doesn't have a monarchy. It absolutely can be democratic (USA, Germany) . . . or it can be Communist (People's Republic of China, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea [North Korea]), USSR [Union of Soviet Socialist Republics], theocratic (Islamic Republic of Iran, Islamic Republic of Afghanistan), dictatorial (Arab Republic of Egypt). Of course you can argue that simply having the name republic in the name of the nation doesn't actually make you a republic, certainly there are no democratic republics that are truly democratic. But they're not monarchies and they do meet the definition of being a republic.

    Republic says didly squat about what type of government you have. The only common denominator between those nations is they don't have a monarch (though North Korea comes close). So yes absolutely the opposite of republic is monarchy. It's a truism in fact.

    Liberal republics like the USA and Germany are only one of many types of republic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #4805
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Oh FFS.
    What? That's how you defined republic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #4806
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    We are all democracies regardless of whether the head of state is appointed, elected or inherited. In that sense we're not opposite because we are all democracies. The opposite of democracy in that sense is perhaps a dictatorship etc

    However none of that is what makes up a republic. A republic is a nation that doesn't have a monarchy.
    No. "Republic" does not mean "not a monarchy." A military junta is not a republic. A theocratic state led by the head of the church is not a republic. Those things you label as democracy are an integral part of the modern definition of republic. Even in older definitions, a core concept was that governance was a public concern, not the private domain of a leader or council. Nowhere has republic ever been defined as "anything that doesn't have a king." You need a king or queen to be a monarchy. Republic is something specific, not a general term for "not a monarchy" Republic is, in fact, almost entirely a matter of how your governance is structured. Hell, by your earlier analogy, a block of cheese is both a republic and atheist. No!
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  7. #4807
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Sure it is exactly what it means. In fact it was literally in the definition I gave earlier. Most modern constitutional monarchies have no actual governance powers exercised by the monarchy, but they're not republics by definition. In fact in Australia in 1999 they had a referendum on whether to become a republic or not - the mode of being a republic chosen involved zero disruption to their governance, the very limited powers currently exercised by an appointed Governor General would be exercised by an appointed President instead. The only change was not to "how your governance is structured" it was from having a monarch to not having one.

    Are you claiming China, USSR, Afghanistan, Iran, Egypt etc are not republics?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #4808
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Are you claiming the Holy See and a block of cheese are republics?

    And since you're working so heavily on ontology, do you mind telling me what was Holy or Roman about the Hapsburg's Austria-based empire? Also, do you mind telling me when the US will be getting tax money from the other states in the Americas like Brazil and Canada?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  9. #4809
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    I guess Americans got this crazy idea about democracy being the essence of a republic because they used the terms and can't concieve of a republic being anything else than their system of government.

    But I guess we Europeans have got to take a little bit of the blame for hanging on to old forms in what are basically are republics. Countries like the UK and The Netherlands may still have their Queens and Kings, but essentially those have long lost any serious government role. Our governments aren't headed by hereditary monarchs but by elected officials.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  10. #4810
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Are you claiming the Holy See and a block of cheese are republics?

    And since you're working so heavily on ontology, do you mind telling me what was Holy or Roman about the Hapsburg's Austria-based empire? Also, do you mind telling me when the US will be getting tax money from the other states in the Americas like Brazil and Canada?
    Do you see the people living in the Vatican participating in elections?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  11. #4811
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Are you claiming the Holy See and a block of cheese are republics?

    And since you're working so heavily on ontology, do you mind telling me what was Holy or Roman about the Hapsburg's Austria-based empire? Also, do you mind telling me when the US will be getting tax money from the other states in the Americas like Brazil and Canada?
    I've already addressed the name issue by saying that Democratic Republics of course aren't democratic. However they are republics.

    A block of cheese is not a country so no it isn't a republic, that's another prerequisite. The Holy See is a unique state. It doesn't have citizens outside the Church.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  12. #4812
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    This is just another necessary vs. sufficient debate.
    Last edited by Aimless; 09-12-2018 at 09:17 AM.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  13. #4813
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  14. #4814
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    As much of a fuck up Trump has been on several issues which should have been slam dunks, I'll always remember how wonderful the election night was. Liberal tears will always be hilarious.

    https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2018/...rump-election/

    Start around 13:15 or so... ROFL. Somehow I doubt there was a single person in that room that voted for Trump, Google like many Fortune 500 companies likes to champion diversity. How about some diversity of thought, eh?

  15. #4815
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Why do I get the feeling you'd be cheering on the streets of Germany in 1933?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #4816
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    diversity of thought

    This is another one of those times were we are left wondering if lewk is so stupid that he didn't catch what he did, or if he did it on purpose because he is so god damn stupid.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  17. #4817
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Why do I get the feeling you'd be cheering on the streets of Germany in 1933?
    Why would I be cheering for a government that took a harsh stance on gun ownership, was in favor of treating people different based on race and a leader who held disdain for capitalism?

  18. #4818
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Because you don't actually care about the issues. Your priority is making the other tribe cry. And what a better way to make libs cry than to elect Nazis?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  19. #4819
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Why would I be cheering for a government that took a harsh stance on gun ownership, was in favor of treating people different based on race and a leader who held disdain for capitalism?
    Trump has 2 out of 3 of those.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #4820
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Why do I get the feeling you'd be cheering on the streets of Germany in 1933?
    If he would, it would only be out of cowardice. Otherwise it would just be an inconvenience. Most people in Germany at the time at least learned to act as if they accepted the regime, and many no doubt rationalized their acceptance in various ways, so odds are pretty high that Lewk would have done the same unless he would've belonged to one of the persecuted groups. The same likely goes for most people here. Cheering on the streets? I dunno. Spreading disgusting propaganda and quietly appreciating, rationalizing or being nonchalant about utterly vile crimes? Now that I can see happening. He's just barely managed to avoid sharing modern equivalents of blood libel b/c of social pressure.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  21. #4821
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Fun Nazi Germany fact: gun laws weren't particularly harsh there, unless you were a Jew.
    It's getting closer now, the fear that we have held off for so long
    It's getting closer now to where we know there can be no return
    It's makes no sense to me, what has been set in motion here today
    It makes no sense anymore, was it too little, too late? Or too much too fast?

  22. #4822
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Fun Nazi Germany fact: gun laws weren't particularly harsh there, unless you were a Jew.
    Or the Romani, the gays, their political opponents etc.

  23. #4823
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Interesting debate, defining terms like Democracy and Republic. Up next: Socialism!

    Loki, you do have a tough job in political science academia! If you have students like Lewk, do you grade them on a curve, or what?

    <Burying these topics in the "TRUMP 2016" thread is really unfortunate.>

  24. #4824
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Can't remember which thread it was in which Lewkowksi was gloating that Kavanaugh was definitely going to be confirmed. Interesting today then to see Republicans Corker and Flake (who can tip the balance if they go with the Democrats) calling for a delay.

    Considering how badly Trump has treated Flake - and how the last Congress refused to confirm Obama's pick - wouldn't be ironic if Flake's final act as a Senator is to delay confirmation until after the midterms and a potentially Democrat-majority Senate could be elected?

    EDIT: Indeed Flake can tip the balance himself while the vote is before the Senate Judiciary Committee as the Republicans only have an 11-10 majority there including him, if he goes against Kavanaugh it becomes 10-11 against. Maybe Trump should have treated Flake better?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #4825
    RB, I think it's still pretty likely he'll be confirmed. If he isn't, Collins or murkowski are the most likely culprits, not Flake or Corker.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  26. #4826
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Can't remember which thread it was in which Lewkowksi was gloating that Kavanaugh was definitely going to be confirmed. Interesting today then to see Republicans Corker and Flake (who can tip the balance if they go with the Democrats) calling for a delay.

    Considering how badly Trump has treated Flake - and how the last Congress refused to confirm Obama's pick - wouldn't be ironic if Flake's final act as a Senator is to delay confirmation until after the midterms and a potentially Democrat-majority Senate could be elected?

    EDIT: Indeed Flake can tip the balance himself while the vote is before the Senate Judiciary Committee as the Republicans only have an 11-10 majority there including him, if he goes against Kavanaugh it becomes 10-11 against. Maybe Trump should have treated Flake better?
    Trump probably should have however if Flake flakes that would be the ultimate of putting self before country. Flake knows that Kavanaugh is built from the mold of conservative justices he would vote for. The vote is also ceremonial, the full senate can vote regardless of the recommendation by the committee. The number to look for is the final vote. If Flake flips it's still 50/50 they would need another Republican flip AND no Democratic senator flip. And there are several up in red states in 2018.

  27. #4827
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Just because someone is of the right mold doesn't mean they should be improperly given a job for life without proper vetting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #4828
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Flake will continue to live up to his name and do absolutely nothing unless things change dramatically. He doesn't want to be the guy who got in the way of raising a conservative justice to SCOTUS, even if said justice is a slimy lying creep who might help Trump evade justice.

    Some of the takes from prominent conservative pundits have been downright revolting. The same people who would gladly see young black kids punished by jail or even death, or shrug when innocent black kids are murdered for looking suspicious, are now trying to tell us that a 17-y-o assaulting a 15-y-o is just an example of boyish antics, youthful indiscretions that must be forgiven and that have no bearing on his character a few decades later. These people are pathetic.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  29. #4829
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    They'd be better off arguing innocent until proven guilty, statute of limitations etc but then those would be principles of justice that they want to deny others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  30. #4830
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Irrelevant. This is not a trial. There is no statute of limitations.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

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