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Thread: TRUMP 2016

  1. #4291
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    ....
    If you aren't on the right than yeah you should be mad at Trump, I don't blame you. He's been incredibly effective in pushing the conservative agenda.
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    You're an embarrassment to the term conservative.
    Lewk, there are plenty of conservatives who disagree with you, even some on this forum.

    Some have left the Republican party (like George F. Will). Ohers look the other way, or even deny Trump's pathology, because they want him to sign their legislation (like you). 'Party first' used to be something the Republican party would reject, especially when it threatened our democracy (Nixon/Watergate). Even tho the GOP controls all branches of federal govt, and a majority of state govt, they're governing for Trump's base, ~ 30% of the population.

    It's disingenuous, and false, for you to imply that ONLY conservatives or (R) care about things like national security, funding the military, protecting borders, or reforming immigration policy....and that teh libruls want open borders, with millions pouring into the US, mostly rapists and terrorists, from shithole countries, with amnesty and citizenship for all!

  2. #4292
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Lewk, there are plenty of conservatives who disagree with you, even some on this forum.

    Some have left the Republican party (like George F. Will). Ohers look the other way, or even deny Trump's pathology, because they want him to sign their legislation (like you). 'Party first' used to be something the Republican party would reject, especially when it threatened our democracy (Nixon/Watergate). Even tho the GOP controls all branches of federal govt, and a majority of state govt, they're governing for Trump's base, ~ 30% of the population.

    It's disingenuous, and false, for you to imply that ONLY conservatives or (R) care about things like national security, funding the military, protecting borders, or reforming immigration policy....and that teh libruls want open borders, with millions pouring into the US, mostly rapists and terrorists, from shithole countries, with amnesty and citizenship for all!
    A lot of liberals do want more and more immigration because that is future votes for their party.

    Let me just ask you this. Who is happy with more conservative justices on the bench? Liberals or conservatives? Regulations? Immigration? My point is that anyone who likes conservative policies should be thoroughly happy with Trump's first year. AGAIN, he's personally obnoxious and his agenda isn't perfect but by and large its been a great first year.

  3. #4293
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    A lot of liberals do want more and more immigration because that is future votes for their party.
    Sounds like you think "liberals" or the (D) party would die out, if we just didn't have so many immigrants?

    Let me just ask you this. Who is happy with more conservative justices on the bench? Liberals or conservatives?
    Loaded question. There were/are conservatives in the Republican party that didn't think of Scalia as "Jesus Christ of Latter Day Republicans". But if you're asking me if I want a SCOTUS heavily tilted or loaded toward one political party's agenda, no. I don't want a Republican held house, senate, and POTUS stacking the court....any more than you'd want a Democratic held house, senate, and POTUS doing the same.

    Regulations? Immigration? My point is that anyone who likes conservative policies should be thoroughly happy with Trump's first year. AGAIN, he's personally obnoxious and his agenda isn't perfect but by and large its been a great first year.
    Trump's "agenda" was/is stoking anxieties and exploiting fear. Divide and conquer, just like a reality TV show. Use social media (and press coverage) to call our Free Press "fake news". The elections were rigged (until he started winning). Russian hacking is a hoax. Don't believe your lying eyes, it's all a vast left wing conspiracy. The FBI is in shambles. Don't trust any institution, even now that he's in charge. Only a stable genius like him can fix all our problems, and he can do it alone!

  4. #4294
    Apple may have just helped make a Trump second term a realistic possibility.

    Following the Republicans tax changes Apple are paying $38bn in taxes and bringing on shore upto $312 billion to invest, spend or pay dividends etc - that is an incredible sum of money.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #4295
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...=.a5a52ecb348f

    The Trump administration will create a new conscience and religious freedom division within the Health and Human Services Department to ease the way for doctors, nurses and other medical professionals to opt out of providing services that violate their moral or religious beliefs.

    Cause fuck the Hippocratic Oath.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  6. #4296
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...=.a5a52ecb348f
    The Trump administration will create a new conscience and religious freedom division within the Health and Human Services Department to ease the way for doctors, nurses and other medical professionals to opt out of providing services that violate their moral or religious beliefs.

    Cause fuck the Hippocratic Oath.
    Just what part of the Hippocratic Oath do you believe to be violated by this?

  7. #4297
    To be clear, I'll be referring to the modern interpretations and not get muddied with your shit interpretations of the original texts. For example, from a local college: https://apply.med.ufl.edu/Applicant/...craticOath.pdf

    • Do no harm
    • Respect
    • Impartial care
    • Not be swayed by prejudice
    • I will do all in my power to help my patients reach physical, mental, and spiritual health
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  8. #4298
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a8165381.html

    Donald Trump‘s public admiration for strongman leaders and breaking of “taboos against racism and xenophobia” have encouraged oppression around the world, Human Rights Watch (HRW) has claimed.

    There goes another organization the ass backwards conservatives can add to their liberal fake news list.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  9. #4299
    Why the hell would a doctor or nurse who oppose abortion work in an abortion clinic?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #4300
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    To be clear, I'll be referring to the modern interpretations and not get muddied with your shit interpretations of the original texts. For example, from a local college: https://apply.med.ufl.edu/Applicant/...craticOath.pdf

    • Do no harm
    • Respect
    • Impartial care
    • Not be swayed by prejudice
    • I will do all in my power to help my patients reach physical, mental, and spiritual health
    Okay, so how does it interfere with the modern interpretation of the Hippocratic Oath?

  11. #4301
    It's easy to opt out of abortion in advance but much more difficult to opt out of treating LGBT persons on advance, and doing so after the fact can be harmful to the patient, to their relationship with healthcare providers and to the credibility of the healthcare system.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  12. #4302
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #4303
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Would you really want to know that truth if you were one of them?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  14. #4304
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It's easy to opt out of abortion in advance but much more difficult to opt out of treating LGBT persons on advance, and doing so after the fact can be harmful to the patient, to their relationship with healthcare providers and to the credibility of the healthcare system.
    The case of Trya Hunter shows things are a lot more serious than "can"
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  15. #4305
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It's easy to opt out of abortion in advance but much more difficult to opt out of treating LGBT persons on advance, and doing so after the fact can be harmful to the patient, to their relationship with healthcare providers and to the credibility of the healthcare system.
    Strange how Enoch shut up right after this.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  16. #4306
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Strange how Enoch shut up right after this.
    I didn't realize it was directed at me. I'm still waiting to hear how it violates the Hippocratic Oath, either the original or modern interpretations.

  17. #4307
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    I didn't realize it was directed at me. I'm still waiting to hear how it violates the Hippocratic Oath, either the original or modern interpretations.
    Which part of "impartial" in Impartial Care was too hard to understand? Or "not swayed by prejudice"? Or "Respect"? Or "I will do all in my power to help my patients reach physical, mental, and spiritual health"?

    "I won't treat gays" is pretty much the opposite of "impartial".

    Unless you now twist the word "impartial" to mean something it doesn't.

    Basically, if you go on defending this you put yourself on a level with Trump: A loathsome being, a racist, misogynist and quite a number of other nice attributes.

    If THAT is the company you want to keep...
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  18. #4308
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Which part of "impartial" in Impartial Care was too hard to understand? Or "not swayed by prejudice"? Or "Respect"? Or "I will do all in my power to help my patients reach physical, mental, and spiritual health"?

    "I won't treat gays" is pretty much the opposite of "impartial".

    Unless you now twist the word "impartial" to mean something it doesn't.

    Basically, if you go on defending this you put yourself on a level with Trump: A loathsome being, a racist, misogynist and quite a number of other nice attributes.

    If THAT is the company you want to keep...
    Is this the new Godwin's law?

    I expect doctors to strive to be impartial, and respectful, and do everything in their power to help their patients well being. I also expect them to be human. And being human means there are likely times and places where that simply isn't possible. And when that isn't possible I don't believe it is in the best interest of the patient or the doctor to pretend that they are.

  19. #4309
    Someone else want to take a crack at this translation? After Enochs play at ignorance his big reveal is that bigoted people are so bigoted that they are unable to not violate the hippocratic oath they took, thus it should not apply?
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  20. #4310
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    Is this the new Godwin's law?

    I expect doctors to strive to be impartial, and respectful, and do everything in their power to help their patients well being. I also expect them to be human. And being human means there are likely times and places where that simply isn't possible. And when that isn't possible I don't believe it is in the best interest of the patient or the doctor to pretend that they are.
    Being human means mistakes may be possible.

    But I don't see why being respectful isn't possible at times. A medic should be professional enough to see past the patients foibles and treat the ailment whatever it is. Even serial killers get medical treatment, "sinners" certainly should.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #4311
    Some interesting stuff on everyone's hero, Seth Abramson:

    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #4312
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Someone else want to take a crack at this translation? After Enochs play at ignorance his big reveal is that bigoted people are so bigoted that they are unable to not violate the hippocratic oath they took, thus it should not apply?
    Let's quit talking about generalities and start talking specifics. Are we discussing life saving treatment in an emergency situation? Are we talking about elective procedures? Should a plastic surgeon be able to choose the types of procedures he or she performs?

  23. #4313
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Being human means mistakes may be possible.

    But I don't see why being respectful isn't possible at times. A medic should be professional enough to see past the patients foibles and treat the ailment whatever it is. Even serial killers get medical treatment, "sinners" certainly should.
    Absolutely. However, I don't believe it is fair or reasonable to believe that a serial killer could receive impartial or adequate treatment from a member of the victim's family. It is one of the reasons doctors generally try not to treat family members.
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 01-21-2018 at 08:00 PM.

  24. #4314
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    Absolutely. However, I don't believe it is fair or reasonable to believe that a serial killer could receive impartial or adequate treatment from a member of the victims family. It is one of the reasons doctors generally try not to treat family members.
    If there's actual personal relationships involved then yes that is different. That's not what started this conversation though which is "moral" or "religious" beliefs.

    Being a serial killer goes against my morals but that doesn't give me an opt-out if I'm a medic. Being related to a victim is of course different.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #4315
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If there's actual personal relationships involved then yes that is different. That's not what started this conversation though which is "moral" or "religious" beliefs.

    Being a serial killer goes against my morals but that doesn't give me an opt-out if I'm a medic. Being related to a victim is of course different.
    I don't see why. The Hippocratic oath doesn't say, "All this applies unless you have a personal relationship with the person." If a doctor wanted to not perform a female genital mutilation on a willing woman because it violated his or her moral or religious beliefs, you believe that doctor would be violating the Hippocratic oath?

  26. #4316
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    I don't see why. The Hippocratic oath doesn't say, "All this applies unless you have a personal relationship with the person." If a doctor wanted to not perform a female genital mutilation on a willing woman because it violated his or her moral or religious beliefs, you believe that doctor would be violating the Hippocratic oath?
    Terrible example. Female genital mutilation is a crime. Any doctor who refused to perform it would be following the law and not violating the Hippocratic Oath.

    The reason why the "don't treat family" principle doesn't violate the Oath is that it is in the round impartial. If we're both medics and this week a relative of yours comes in then I would be best placed to treat them rather than yourself, the following week if one of mine did then you can. Either way our relatives get the best treatment available.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  27. #4317
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Terrible example. Female genital mutilation is a crime. Any doctor who refused to perform it would be following the law and not violating the Hippocratic Oath.
    even without it being illegal it violates the science part of the oath, enoch might as well claim that a modern doctor that refuses to leech for blood letting violates the oath.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  28. #4318
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Some interesting stuff on everyone's hero, Seth Abramson:

    These claims fail on their own merits unless US universities have strange views on staff committing academic fraud. Moreover, no-one but Abramson--and the guy in that tweet--ever references his essays on "metamodernism", and these bizarre exercises are only relevant to the subject of his Trump-Russia posts if it can be shown that those posts are similar exercises. Otherwise this is just one weirdo being upset about another weirdo being weird in a way that annoys him, about a weird subject that no-one else understands or cares about. The HuffPo article in question has been acknowledged by Abramson as being attributed to a fictional author and a fictional journal. I reiterate: there are many legitimate criticisms of Abramson, and yet you seem to consistently home in on the least persuasive.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  29. #4319
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Terrible example. Female genital mutilation is a crime. Any doctor who refused to perform it would be following the law and not violating the Hippocratic Oath.
    It wasn't illegal in the US prior to 1996, and is legal as near I can tell for women over the age of 18. Would a doctor refusing to perform it prior to that, or a doctor currently refusing to perform that procedure on an adult woman, be violating his or her oath?

    The reason why the "don't treat family" principle doesn't violate the Oath is that it is in the round impartial. If we're both medics and this week a relative of yours comes in then I would be best placed to treat them rather than yourself, the following week if one of mine did then you can. Either way our relatives get the best treatment available.
    Exactly. This is the point. If I know there are cases where I would not be impartial and be capable of giving you the best treatment, the right thing to do is to not pretend I am impartially following an oath, it is to allow another doctor who is capable of being impartial provide medical services. Following the Hippocratic oath doesn't mean you are saying you will be incapable of bias or prejudice, it says that you will be able to do what is in the best interest of the patient which might mean not being the one to provide service.
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 01-22-2018 at 02:47 PM.

  30. #4320
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    I didn't realize it was directed at me. I'm still waiting to hear how it violates the Hippocratic Oath, either the original or modern interpretations.
    The Hippocratic Oath is irrelevant. Being a doctor isn't an anachronistic hobby or a religion. It is, in most western countries, a strictly regulated profession, whose licensed and practicing members are required to adhere to current laws and current ethical standards. The Hippocratic Oath has no legal status, and its ethical status has been superseded by more recent declarations. Consequently, in the majority of American med-schools, you're likely to see a variation of the Declaration of Geneva used, of which this sort of discrimination is likely to violate several statements:

    AS A MEMBER OF THE MEDICAL PROFESSION:

    I SOLEMNLY PLEDGE to dedicate my life to the service of humanity;
    Except LGBTQ people?

    THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF MY PATIENT will be my first consideration;
    Except when my hang-ups about their sexual orientation is my first consideration.

    I WILL RESPECT the autonomy and dignity of my patient;
    Except when I see fit to subject them to the indignity of being denied care due to my hang-ups.

    I WILL NOT PERMIT considerations of age, disease or disability, creed, ethnic origin, gender, nationality, political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, social standing or any other factor to intervene between my duty and my patient;
    But I will.

    I WILL PRACTISE my profession with conscience and dignity and in accordance with good medical practice;
    But not for teh gays.

    I WILL FOSTER the honour and noble traditions of the medical profession;
    But not the ones listed above.

    American doctors are required to adhere to the AMA principles of medical ethics, of which this sort of discrimination violates a few:

    I. A physician shall be dedicated to providing competent medical care, with compassion and respect for human dignity and rights.
    But not for LGBTQ people.

    V. A physician shall continue to study, apply, and advance scientific knowledge, maintain a commitment to medical education, make relevant information available to patients, colleagues, and the public, obtain consultation, and use the talents of other health professionals when indicated.
    Unless it offends their religious sensibilities or idiosyncratic hang-ups.

    VI. A physician shall, in the provision of appropriate patient care, except in emergencies, be free to choose whom to serve, with whom to associate, and the environment in which to provide medical care.
    This has never been understood to permit illegal or invidious discrimination, but now we have the all-clear.

    VII. A physician shall recognize a responsibility to participate in activities contributing to the improvement of the community and the betterment of public health.
    But not for everyone, esp. not those engaging in "sick" behavior.

    VIII. A physician shall, while caring for a patient, regard responsibility to the patient as paramount.
    Nope, responsibility to the Bible is no. 1 priority.

    IX. A physician shall support access to medical care for all people.
    "But not here."





    I can understand that from some naïve libertarian perspective there's nothing wrong--and perhaps a lot of good--with denying a patient care. Certainly, if a doctor regards himself as being incompetent or severely compromised, it's a good thing to not subject a patient to the risk of his deficient care. But even in such situations you have to provide adequate care by doing what you can, until someone can relieve you and provide better care. You can do this eg. by giving the patient a referral to another doctor who can better help the patient. But, in reality, denying a patient care in this fashion comes with a risk of doing harm, violating perhaps the most universally recognized principle in medical ethics.

    When someone comes to you seeking help, and you deny them that help because you can't bring yourself to treat eg. a lesbian woman, that can do a great deal of harm. It may delay care, which can be harmful even outside of life-or-death emergencies--it takes mental, emotional, physical and financial resources to seek medical help, and if you lose someone who's expended much of their resources in order to finally seek your help, they may be lost for months, or years, if not forever. If that person understands, belatedly, that they've been denied care due to eg. their sexual orientation or something similar, it may not only hurt them emotionally, but also sabotage all their future relationships with healthcare professionals, making them reluctant to seek help in time. If you're the only doctor in town, even if you can refer them to another doctor in another town, the patient has to overcome another unnecessary obstacle, which may be beyond their means. In reality, if one doctor refuses to treat a patient on the grounds of eg. sexual orientation, there's probably a high likelihood of other doctors in the same region having similar views who'll exercise the same "right" to deny care, putting patients in an impossible or extremely difficult situation.

    The specific examples brought up in this discussion don't help your position, nor are they particularly relevant. FGM-like procedures of all varieties are currently illegal in most western states afaik, certainly for children (and, in the US, even for adults in 26 states). In addition, these procedures are at best not medically justified, at worst extremely harmful, both at the individual level as well as at a societal level. Doctors are unlikely to treat family members eg. by operating on them or treating them in some other way, but every single doctor on earth gives medical advice to--and provides quick assessments of--close family members when needed, before seeking out colleagues who can take over the responsibility. A more relevant example is that of doctors who, in the 80s, refused to treat patients with HIV. In practice, for a very long time, the AMA made exceptions for this.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

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