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Thread: Should Kavanaugh be confirmed for SCOTUS?

  1. #61
    More on the topic of timely warnings about Kavanaugh's shaky integrity:

    https://theintercept.com/2018/09/17/...her-responded/

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.5efceaed8b4f

    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-hearings.html

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.5efceaed8b4f

    https://www.justsecurity.org/60617/k...ing-president/

    https://www.justsecurity.org/60731/r...naugh-torture/

    There are so many provable problems with this candidate even without an unprovable history of sexual assault that it's understandable if Feinstein really believed, as she said she did, that it would be better to focus on legal issues rather than personal ones, esp. in light of Dr. Ford's request for confidentiality and her reluctance to pursue the matter. So why can't GOP senators bring themselves to care about unethical conduct, lying to Congress, misleading Congress and being unable to even do something so basic as to condemn torture as being both morally repugnant as well as illegal?

    One side is certainly putting politics over all other concerns here.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  2. #62
    This has been an exciting day. Yesterday, the inexplicably esteemed Ed Whelan of the conservative think-tank EPPC--a friend and staunch defender of Kavanaugh--posted a long thread on Twitter detailing his theory that Dr. Ford was in reality assaulted by another man who attended Kavanaugh's school at the same time and who looks similar to Kavanaugh. The accusation came with a name, a current photo and his fucking home address. Incidentally, the named person had signed a letter endorsing Kavanaugh. This monumentally stupid idea backfired spectacularly, and the thread ultimately had to be deleted. Whelan has had to apologize publicly of course. Dr. Ford has said that she was familiar enough with both Kavanaugh and the person named by Whelan to be able to say with certainty that she did not confuse them.

    But here's the part that really makes me shake my head in disbelief: there is evidence to suggest that Whelan coordinated with Kavanaugh on this stupid plan and that Orrin Hatch's communications director was involved as well. Hatch had only recently alluded to this theory by remarking that Dr. Ford may have been "mixed up".

    These people believe a soap opera plot-twist is more plausible than the notion that a drunk entitled dudebro assaulted a girl.

    You know what? With 2018 being what it is, maybe they're right.



    There are a lot of writeups on this so I'll just link to the first hit:

    https://www.vox.com/2018/9/20/178850...usation-scotus
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  3. #63
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    So many falsehoods and generalizations in three sentences
    How so? You don't agree with experts that rape and attempted rape are about power....or that Kavanaugh believes presidential power includes immunity from civil or criminal investigations or prosecutions while in office? That means he's changed his opinion since his involvement in Clinton's impeachment days (which happens, of course) but being above the law is at least abuse of power, if not absolute power.
    Reminds me of Nixon saying if the president does something it can't be against the law.

    I think she's trying (and being coached) to delay this process. She's doing as good of a job as she can, but she's overplayed by refusing to testify before an FBI investigation. The FBI doesn't conduct criminal investigations on these matters. The guy has had like six FBI background checks. I've been contacted as part of someone's FBI investigation; it's thorough. This guy has had SIX.

    She may genuinely believe this happened. And it genuinely may not have happened. These are the sad realities that make actual sexual assaults hard to prosecute. But there's no pattern of behavior or any other indication to suggest this can or should amount to anything meaningful at all. He's a stellar judge and should move forward.
    Wow, talk about falsehoods and generalizations! She's going to testify next week, without an additional FBI investigation (even though new claims or allegations about a nominee usually means another background check), and without the benefit of witnesses she'd requested. What you call "coaching" is really just a layperson using lawyers to prepare for an intrusive (and horrendous) public grilling by a bunch of political hacks, and that's her right!

    And I don't think she's putting herself through this nightmare for political purposes, either. If anything, this is exactly what she feared and wanted to avoid by not reporting the incident at age 15: no one would believe her.

    If we allow a single lone person making possibly-libelous accusations to stop the gears of democracy, we're breaking the process.
    Oh please, the "process" has been borked for years, and the rush to confirm Kavanaugh is just more proof.

  5. #65
    Hope is the denial of reality

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I guess Dems are going to plan C now that that 4 separate people have conflicted their original smear. Though I suspect they are upset she didn't wait until after Thursday so we can go into a new round of delay delay delay.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Another FBI investigation might expose even more than a news magazine did. But hang on, the FBI can't be trusted, they're part of the Deep State and there's a lingering stench in the DoJ.....clearly, the best thing to do is ram Kavanaugh's confirmation through ASAP....

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Another Registered Democrat with a hazy memory who never stepped forward until now. Not when he was selected to become a federal judge, nor when hearings began for the SCOTUS but right now when its all kind of wrapped up. I mean yikes, can we say partisan witch hunt?

    And the spineless senate republicans won't even grill her on the details I bet, point the various facts I mentioned above or demand actual evidence. If someone wants to accuse someone of a crime they should be cross examined hard just like any competent defense attorney would.

    There is ample motive to lie here.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Another FBI investigation might expose even more than a news magazine did. But hang on, the FBI can't be trusted, they're part of the Deep State and there's a lingering stench in the DoJ.....clearly, the best thing to do is ram Kavanaugh's confirmation through ASAP....
    Well, Comey and Mcabe gave contradictory under oath testimonies. Both were fired with cause. Page another FBI tool is not directly contradicting Ron Rosentein. *Someone* is dirty here, possibly multiple people.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    He's a stellar judge and should move forward.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Another Registered Democrat with a hazy memory who never stepped forward until now. Not when he was selected to become a federal judge, nor when hearings began for the SCOTUS but right now when its all kind of wrapped up. I mean yikes, can we say partisan witch hunt?

    And the spineless senate republicans won't even grill her on the details I bet, point the various facts I mentioned above or demand actual evidence. If someone wants to accuse someone of a crime they should be cross examined hard just like any competent defense attorney would.

    There is ample motive to lie here.
    For someone who regularly rails against crime, you really don't seek to care about crime directed at women (unless it's by non-whites of course).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #73
    He's shown for years women are liars unless they can prove otherwise. Afterall Duke.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  14. #74
    We should compose a running scale of the different rights and worths lewk assigns to various groups and things.

    Do you think women would come before or after toothpaste?
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  15. #75
    The thing to understand about conservative "law and order" mania is that they basically don't think anything is a crime when they do it. Those high standards and harsh penalties are for other people, not them.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  16. #76
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  17. #77
    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/s...firmation-vote
    Your daily reminder that the GOP is nothing but slime balls.

    This is becoming one their worst kept secrets
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    In addition to Ramirez and the unnamed woman who unfortunately affiliated herself with Avenatti there appears to be a fourth woman:

    https://mont.thesentinel.com/2018/09...e-allegations/

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    I guess Dems are going to plan C now that that 4 separate people have conflicted their original smear.
    This is simply not the case. Apart from Kavanaugh's denial of the assault never taking place, we have had people who have released lawyered statements saying they don't recall or have no knowledge of the events in which they themselves were partly implicated. We have a presumed inconsistency in a therapist's note that is in no way dispositive given how common it is for professionals to make errors when documenting such accounts. We have some dumbass who thought they caught WaPo out in some sort of lie, but subsequent examination shows nothing of the sort. We also have Kavanaugh's utterly asinine doppelganger theory that saw Ed Whelan disgraced and driven into hiding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Another Registered Democrat with a hazy memory who never stepped forward until now. Not when he was selected to become a federal judge, nor when hearings began for the SCOTUS but right now when its all kind of wrapped up.
    This is just fucking stupid. Kavanaugh may be well known in many circles, but he rose to national prominence and became known to the public after he was nominated to SCOTUS. More importantly, until fairly recently there was next to no hope of ever being able to hold people to account for the kinds of actions he now stands accused of. The history of our societies are replete with stories of girls and women--and no small number of men--whose assaults were covered up, who were disbelieved or even punished for being victims. Every single small town in the US probably has at least one story people can easily recall from their highschool or college years. See the steady stream of prominent men who were brought down only recently despite having preyed on women for decades. Bill Cosby is about to be sentenced for drugging and/or assaulting/raping sixty women, again over several decades. "Hazy memories" isn't really the brilliant gotcha you imagine it to be in the case of girls and women who were drunk or drugged and subjected to trauma. Even in other forms of trauma, even without the influence of alcohol or narcotics, while some people have extremely vivid and detailed memories, many others have vague memories when it comes to details, and both categories often feature fragmented memories. This is unfortunately what reality looks like, and you just look dumber when you try to act as if it were otherwise.

    And the spineless senate republicans won't even grill her on the details I bet, point the various facts I mentioned above or demand actual evidence. If someone wants to accuse someone of a crime they should be cross examined hard just like any competent defense attorney would.

    There is ample motive to lie here.
    Nonsense on so many levels. These are not criminal proceedings--this is a job screening and interview process. A crazy conspiratorial misogynist might imagine there is ample motive to lie, but anyone who isn't a total halfwit will recognize that there are much, much stronger incentives to not even come forward in the first place, let alone come forward and lie. Even now, when their claims haven't been investigated, those who have made themselves known have already been subjected to extraordinary levels of harassment, abuse, threats and completely unfounded slander (sometimes hilariously disgusting, such as the conservatives who thought they'd uncovered a delicious conspiracy where George Soros paid Ramirez, and it turns out they weren't just being antisemitic caricatures but targeted a completely different Deborah Ramirez). They can look forward to this treatment continuing for weeks or even months. I know you've always had difficulties looking at both sides of an equation, but this is just ludicrous.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  19. #79
    Mayer & Farrow learned of Ramirez from other Yale alumni who were emailing each other about it in July before Dr. Ford came forward:

    https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/j...her-yale-grads

    “She didn’t come forward with it,” Mayer said Monday on NBC’s “Today.” “What happened was, the classmates at Yale were talking to each other about it, they were emailing about it. We’ve seen the emails, back in July before Christine Blasey Ford came forward, and eventually the word of it spread.”

    “It spread to the Senate. It spread to the media,” she continued. “And [we] reached out to her. After giving it really careful consideration for six days, she decided to talk to [Ronan Farrow].”
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  20. #80
    Shits about to get real
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  21. #81
    Looks like Rosenstein is on his way to get fired right now. Sacrificing Rosenstein to distract from an inevitable withdrawal of Kavanaugh and doing it on a Monday in the hopes that a full work week works against the coming protests.

    Or what Steely said.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  22. #82
    I just caught the headline of this while I was at work, and assumed it was about to go down but apparently they have scheduled it for the same day as the Kavanaugh hearing.

    That's just straight up pathetic.

    I'm picturing them doing the whole Dr. Evil finger/mouth thing when they came up with this, and basking in their cunning while the rest of the country just rolls it's eyes.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  23. #83
    Also, is the GOP really that hard up for conservative judges who'll do Trumps bidding that 'an accused rapist on the supreme court' is suddenly the hill they've picked to die on?
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  24. #84
    Yes but it's more complicated than that. Ditching Kavanaugh earlier in favour of a less controversial candidate would've seemed like a simple solution but there's a small chance that they might in that case not be able to confirm anyone, because there is a small chance they lose the senate. But there are other considerations. For many senators, the greatest threat to their political future is Trump endorsing another Republican candidate the next time they're up for re-election as punishment for failing to confirm Kavanaugh. Others might be eager to just get this over with because this is the most important thing they wanted from Trump and he's basically holding them hostage. There are other more depressing and revolting possibilities that I'm sure you can think of. And some people are basically just like Lewk.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  25. #85
    They clearly knew about this stuff in advance, they had a letter ready to go and everything.
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  26. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    They clearly knew about this stuff in advance, they had a letter ready to go and everything.
    Certainly they knew about much of this before the public knew, but most probably did not regard it as credible or as being a big deal in reality. That's contemptible but it is also how many people are (see deluge of articles by conservative pundits and interviews with conservative grassroots activists essentially saying that the allegations aren't credible but also that, even if they were credible--indeed, even if they were true!--that isn't really a reason to not confirm Kavanaugh). See also Dread's half-assed take. From the GOP's perspective, this is all just politics, all politics are simply means to an end, and the end justifies the means in this case. In addition to this, there are strong personal incentives for individual GOP senators to not rock the boat.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  27. #87
    That letter did come out pretty fast. Maybe the Democrats who were keeping it a secret until right before the vote weren't as secretive as they thought?

  28. #88
    Yeah, or not.

    https://www.apnews.com/1f7e47de5ce340f7b4cab8e92ef91cf0

    Just because y'all have a hammer doesn't mean everything is a nail.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  29. #89
    And I don't know how to tell you this but when a victim of sexual assault tells you about it in confidence while saying they don't intend to go any further with the matter and don't want to be drawn into it, you should try to respect that. The accounts we have suggest that Feinstein had no intention of even sharing the letter with her fellow Democrats. They in turn, upon learning of the letter and being told of its contents, insisted that its existence be made known to others on the committee and to the public. There is no need to posit a nefarious political motive in light of this, given the short time that passed between the others finding out about the letter and Kavanaugh's hearings. The GOP's numerous and sustained efforts to obstruct Democrats' access to documents, however, is much more blatantly political, and scummy to boot.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  30. #90
    If this matter had been handed over to the FBI like it should have been, it could have been kept confidential instead of running the trial through public opinion. But the latter is more politically favorable - half the population is guaranteed to accept anything said uncritically, and even if the allegations amount to nothing it still scores points for the Democrats and gives them more opportunities to delay the proceedings, so I can understand it. It's all just politics to them, after all.

    We never should have gotten to where we are, but now that we have the right thing to do is for Trump to order the FBI to reopen their investigation. The allegations are too serious to be simply brushed off, no matter how they were surfaced. I don't have a ton of faith in Trump doing the right thing though, and even if he does I'll doubt it's for the right reasons.

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