What's best for the child?

[oldmunchkin]

GGT and I have been arguing over this for a while now, so we decided to get your opinions. Let me say right at the beginning...this child is a well-behaved, well-mannered, well-loved, typical 10 year old boy!
*All names changed!

Thursday night I started to take trash out to the dumpster. As I went out, I found Jane* and her dog standing in the street. Jane was crying hysterically. I asked her what was wrong and she told me John had come back to the motel drunk and they had gotten into a very physical fight. I went up to their room with her so she could get their 10 year old son and both of them come to my room for the remainder of the night. John was refusing to let her take Jack with her, and they got into a shoving match. I walked back to my room and called the police. When they came, neither Jane or John wanted to press charges against each other, so neither was taken to jail. In Wyoming, the police can press the charges regardless of the wishes of the parties involved. The officers were nice enough to allow them to just separate for the night, with Jane bringing Jack to my room!

Jane had a dentist appointment in Casper on Friday morning, and John had to go to work, so Jack stayed with me for the day. After John got off work, he brought Jack and I bacon cheeseburgers from the Pub for dinner! (Treat for me since I've been living on mac and cheese again!) Jack hadn't eaten anything since Thursday evening since the family lives payday to payday and in a motel room. Friday was payday!

GGT thinks I am enabling abuse and neglect by allowing Jack to stay with me and making sure he knows he can always call and talk to me if he wants. I think I am just "paying it forward" by helping him, and his Mom, when they really needed it! So, pick from the questions below, some or all, and explain why you think that way. Remember. this happened in BFE , so some big city options are not available! Also, there was no school on Friday.

1.) Should I, or the police, have called Child Welfare and put Jack into a foster care system that is overburdened and mainly staffed by people just wanting the money and food stamps another foster child brings into the household?

2.) Am I "enabling" abuse and neglect? Even tho Jack is neither abused or neglected?

3.) Is Jack actually being abused or neglected simply due to the "traveling" lifestyle of the parents? John works construction and they move frequently, always into motels.

4.) Is it neglect when a child has to wait a full day before another meal, as happened in this case? Don't millions of people live paycheck to paycheck, thus having to wait until payday to buy food? Remember, they are living in a motel room that boasts a tiny fridge and microwave, and no storage area for canned foods.

5.) What other options do parents, who live on a very tight budget, have for taking care of their children? Other than friends who will help out?

[littlelolligagged]

Jack is neglected, if nothing else.

If his parents "traveling" lifestyle has him constantly changing schools, that's not good for him ever getting out of the apparently miserable life his parents are subjecting him to. Only eating once a day is total bullshit for a growing boy.

This motel room has a tiny fridge and microwave? Then if nothing else they can have some cereal and milk, some jam and peanut butter or sandwich meat, and a fucking loaf of bread.

John has money to drink but not to feed his kid? He should be in jail...

[GGT]

Correction: you said you found her beaten to a pulp in the gutter, the father had spent the evening getting tanked at the LLS (drinks bought by the town infection-infested cunt trying to get into his pants), leaving his child unattended. Hungry and crying. Coming back the next day with gifts of bacon cheeseburgers, like everything was dandy. Why wasn't he in school on Friday? Also, you said that he's been dragged around from town-to-town and enrolled in different schools, with no peer friends or family, or support system.

I said you were enabling a very dysfunctional family situation, and the kid deserved better.

[Knux897]

Wow...I can eat however I want, however much I want... I feel sorry and yet fortunate at the same time...

[oldmunchkin]

Jack is neglected, if nothing else.

If his parents "traveling" lifestyle has him constantly changing schools, that's not good for him ever getting out of the apparently miserable life his parents are subjecting him to. Only eating once a day is total bullshit for a growing boy.

This motel room has a tiny fridge and microwave? Then if nothing else they can have some cereal and milk, some jam and peanut butter or sandwich meat, and a fucking loaf of bread.

John has money to drink but not to feed his kid? He should be in jail...

Ok, so, going on what you say, ALL military personnel have neglected children?

Tell the thousands of homeless parents that eating once a day is bullshit for a growing child! They feel damned lucky to get 1 meal a day. Are they neglecting their children? Or is it just a case of circumstances beyond their control and this is how it has to be for the moment! Hell, at least Jack has a bed and a roof over his head!

By "tiny" fridge I meant, you have to take 2 of the shelves out to be able to put a gallon jug into it. If you put a gallon of anything in it, you have used up about 1/2 of the space. Just where would you like them to keep all these expensive lunch meats? They have to stay cool. Yeah, there is peanut butter and jelly, if you don't have a peanut allergy like Jack does.

Correction: you said you found her beaten to a pulp in the gutter, the father had spent the evening getting tanked at the LLS (drinks bought by the town infection-infested cunt trying to get into his pants), leaving his child unattended. Hungry and crying. Coming back the next day with gifts of bacon cheeseburgers, like everything was dandy. Why wasn't he in school on Friday? Also, you said that he's been dragged around from town-to-town and enrolled in different schools, with no peer friends or family, or support system.

I said you were enabling a very dysfunctional family situation, and the kid deserved better.

Corrections: 1.) They were both beating on each other. I said,

his mom and dad got into a hell of a knock-down drag-out fight thursday night...they basically beat the shit out of each other

I also said,

i found her and the dog in the street, she was bawling...i had met her exactly 1 time before i took her and the kid and the dog into my room (1 bed) for the rest of thursday night...about 4 hours

2.) John was at the PUB, not the LLS. LLS is more responsible in their serving methods! Besides which, the disease-ridden cunt isn't even allowed into the LLS. Last time she was there, she tried her "come fuck me, I'll buy the booze and drugs" act on the owner's husband!!

Now onto business. Have you never left your child in the house for all of the 5 or 10 minutes it takes to take the dog out? That was her reason for not being in the room with Jack and John when I ran into her.

Jack started crying yesterday afternoon, for a little while. Hell, he didn't really know me, his Mom went to see the dentist and his Dad went to work. FFS, I might cry in that situation too, if I was 10! Oh I know...I know!!!! Mom should have put off having that tooth pulled, or Dad should have missed work on Friday (like they can afford that, they already just barely make it week to week) simply because the school system here has decided instead of having Easter break like a normal school system, and a spring break a little later or earlier, they should combine them. That means Easter/Spring break started Friday and ends on Monday April 5th! That's why Jack was with me instead of being in school! As far as the dentist appointment, I use that word lightly since it was a free dental clinic. Jane got to wait all day to see a dentist, but I suppose she could have waited until June when they have the next free clinic, after all, she only had 2 abscessed teeth. Hell, she is an adult, she could have waited til June and seen if they could all have been trashed!

I am guessing, by reading your posts here, that neither one of you has every worked construction or some other traveling job. A lot of these people don't have a home, they just live in motels wherever there job is. Their children enroll in local schools for however long they are there. Most of these families, (Yes there are a lot of families, men, women, and children, that live this way) unless both parents work for the same company, (most of the women don't work for logistics reasons) live Friday to Friday. After you pay the motel bill, get whatever groceries you can keep the proper temperature, eat out or pick up fast food, and make sure the kid(s) have school stuff, there is NO MONEY left AT ALL by Wednesday or Thursday! That means the whole family gets to go on a day or two "diet", eating only 1 meal in the evening. If the kid(s) are in school, of course then they get a second "meal". (Here the school lunches seem more like something that should be thrown out to the hogs!)

I don't know how anyone can think that missing a meal constitutes neglect, but oh well. I also don't see how living with 2 parents who love that child is abuse or neglect. Oh well, I guess that's the difference in opinions of people who never had to live like this, and people who find it normal. Of course, you gotta remember, without this kind of worker, your roads would be worse, your house might not have been built, and numerous other things involving infastructure, all of which are temporary, transient jobs!

[oldmunchkin]

Oh yeah, said neglected child with no friends is off to visit, and play with, his other friends from the library! He and John just pulled out of the motel as I was out smoking.

[GGT]

Just stop that munchkin. Really. Instead of trying to make more excuses, wake up and smell the coffee. Maybe we have lived paycheck-to-paycheck, and been so broke all we have is Ramen until payday. Or maybe we ate Ramen in order to save for Campbell's chunky chicken.

1) The parents are being neglectful because they're not using ANY resources or planning for their child.
2) They knew in advance about the Easter break and could have asked the school for advice to find supervision.
3) Powdered milk can be added to water and not need refrigeration.
4) People who have that low of income get WIC and foodstamps....bread and cheese and juice at least.
5) Ten year olds can go with mom to the dental clinic, wait with her, and read a book. Libraries are free.

Whenever there is physical abuse it's a big red flag of other issues. Ignoring it won't make it go away. Accepting food from an abusive person tells them "it's okay, just bring a gift when you come back". But if you've got a mother who ignores "dental health" so long it turns into abscesses, she needs EDUCATION. (Do we want to know if the kid has ever seen a dentist or is his mouth full of rotten teeth too?)

I know you wanted to help the family, I just disagreed about the method. Continuing bad cycles is NO help at all, it just kicks the can forward and things get worse. You know that. For that kid's sake, use the internet or the phone and find him an uninvolved third party who can help his parents, and him.

Being poor doesn't have to mean being stupid. Moving around a lot doesn't have to mean living in the dregs. Being a parent means more than just feeling 'love' for your kids. And being a good neighbor sometimes means doing some really tough things. Like pressing charges or calling authorities.

[littlelolligagged]

Do you have any clue how fucking ridiculous you sound by making excuses for scum like this? Seriously, it's beneath you.

I've been friends with construction workers before - amazingly enough they don't move from one place to another constantly. Neither do road crews. It sounds to me like this guy just can't keep a job - maybe it has something to do with the fact that he spends his time getting drunk so he can beat the shit out of his wife while his kid watches. You don't think that counts as abuse?

Also, I'm fairly sure everyone here has been grocery shopping before, so they realize that lunch meat can be bought quite cheaply - and that it also wouldn't take up much room in the half of the fridge that isn't filled with the gallon of milk. Or just buy milk by the half-gallon, instead. Or hell, just keep a box of powdered milk instead - since the purpose is just wetting down the cereal. Hell, you can make instant oatmeal in the microwave with water.

Yes, starving a child is neglect.

[GGT]

Do you have any clue how fucking ridiculous you sound by making excuses for scum like this? Seriously, it's beneath you.

I've been friends with construction workers before - amazingly enough they don't move from one place to another constantly. Neither do road crews. It sounds to me like this guy just can't keep a job - maybe it has something to do with the fact that he spends his time getting drunk so he can beat the shit out of his wife while his kid watches. You don't think that counts as abuse?

Also, I'm fairly sure everyone here has been grocery shopping before, so they realize that lunch meat can be bought quite cheaply - and that it also wouldn't take up much room in the half of the fridge that isn't filled with the gallon of milk. Or just buy milk by the half-gallon, instead. Or hell, just keep a box of powdered milk instead - since the purpose is just wetting down the cereal. Hell, you can make instant oatmeal in the microwave with water.

Yes, starving a child is neglect.

And exposing a child to spousal abuse can be considered child abuse. In the very least, it's setting the kid up to be stuck in the same bad cycle, imitating what he sees, and confusing it for "normal" or even "Love". For all you know, this is the pattern of that family, and why they constantly move.

You should ask yourself if you're the umpteenth person, in a motel, sheltering this child from his parents, and that's why it goes on?

This really disturbs me. Especially coming from munchie who's had abusive relationships.

[2HD]

Ok, so, going on what you say, ALL military personnel have neglected children?

If they live in motel rooms and their parents beat each other while one gets drunk instead of buying groceries, and don't even hesitate to leave their kids with strangers while they run errands, then yes.

Tell the thousands of homeless parents that eating once a day is bullshit for a growing child! They feel damned lucky to get 1 meal a day. Are they neglecting their children?

Yeah, I'm sure they think it is awesome to go hungry and would suggest everyone do it.

Or is it just a case of circumstances beyond their control and this is how it has to be for the moment! Hell, at least Jack has a bed and a roof over his head!

The physical abuse was out of their control? The inability to plan and budget their money was out of their control? Did they just start living this life?

By "tiny" fridge I meant, you have to take 2 of the shelves out to be able to put a gallon jug into it. If you put a gallon of anything in it, you have used up about 1/2 of the space. Just where would you like them to keep all these expensive lunch meats?

They are called ice chests. Anyone who travels any amount of time and lives in motels knows that unless you want to go broke living off of fast food, you have small to medium ice chests so you can keep perishable items, because not all hotel rooms have refridgerators, and most of them, as you describe won't hold shit anyway.

Corrections: 1.) They were both beating on each other. I said, I also said,
2.) John was at the PUB, not the LLS. LLS is more responsible in their serving methods! Besides which, the disease-ridden cunt isn't even allowed into the LLS. Last time she was there, she tried her "come fuck me, I'll buy the booze and drugs" act on the owner's husband!!

None of this matters. It shouldn't even be in the conversation if we were talking about responsible parents.

Now onto business. Have you never left your child in the house for all of the 5 or 10 minutes it takes to take the dog out? That was her reason for not being in the room with Jack and John when I ran into her.

I don't see anything wrong with that, especially if you left the child with his father.

Jack started crying yesterday afternoon, for a little while. Hell, he didn't really know me, his Mom went to see the dentist and his Dad went to work. FFS, I might cry in that situation too, if I was 10!

Me too. The good thing is that he knows it's not right. Once he thinks this is all normal behavior he is really in trouble. Otherwise he wouldn't have been crying. The kid knows it isn't right, at 10, why don't you?

Oh I know...I know!!!! Mom should have put off having that tooth pulled, or Dad should have missed work on Friday (like they can afford that, they already just barely make it week to week) simply because the school system here has decided instead of having Easter break like a normal school system, and a spring break a little later or earlier, they should combine them. That means Easter/Spring break started Friday and ends on Monday April 5th! That's why Jack was with me instead of being in school! As far as the dentist appointment, I use that word lightly since it was a free dental clinic. Jane got to wait all day to see a dentist, but I suppose she could have waited until June when they have the next free clinic, after all, she only had 2 abscessed teeth. Hell, she is an adult, she could have waited til June and seen if they could all have been trashed!

Kids can wait with their parents, and at 10 can wait until their parents are finished at the doctor. Plus, are you sure she even went to the dentist?

I am guessing, by reading your posts here, that neither one of you has every worked construction or some other traveling job. A lot of these people don't have a home, they just live in motels wherever there job is. Their children enroll in local schools for however long they are there. Most of these families, (Yes there are a lot of families, men, women, and children, that live this way) unless both parents work for the same company, (most of the women don't work for logistics reasons) live Friday to Friday. After you pay the motel bill, get whatever groceries you can keep the proper temperature, eat out or pick up fast food, and make sure the kid(s) have school stuff, there is NO MONEY left AT ALL by Wednesday or Thursday! That means the whole family gets to go on a day or two "diet", eating only 1 meal in the evening. If the kid(s) are in school, of course then they get a second "meal". (Here the school lunches seem more like something that should be thrown out to the hogs!)

There are people who work jobs that don't require travelling that have the same problems, but make it with gov't assistance. But I guess once you make bad life choices, you aren't repsonsible for everything that happens because of those choices from there on out.

I don't know how anyone can think that missing a meal constitutes neglect, but oh well. I also don't see how living with 2 parents who love that child is abuse or neglect. Oh well, I guess that's the difference in opinions of people who never had to live like this, and people who find it normal. Of course, you gotta remember, without this kind of worker, your roads would be worse, your house might not have been built, and numerous other things involving infastructure, all of which are temporary, transient jobs!

And you don't find it sad that people who beat the shit out of each other, don't try to better their situation through budgeting and creative living, and have no real place to live and have no means to provide for children decide to have children and expose them to that life, and then push their problems onto other people (like yourself) who have their own problems, thus spreading the despair and drama that their choices breed? You think that we should just accept all that as normal? We shouldn't expect or work towards something better? They should be grateful for the bed they've made for themselves and not have one bit of remorse for the calamity of a life that they have brought children into?

Not only are you an enabler, but you also love drama and are drawn to it. I know lots of people that are the exact same way. They think they are doing people a favor by getting involved in their drama, when they can't even take care of their own. Now what happens when the violence carries over into your life? Now what happens when your financial situation gets worse when you volunteer to help them with food needs and such?

I'm all for helping people, but not by just giving them what they need when they are adults and should figure out how to provide for themselves instead of depending on me for a crutch. These people love crutches, and found one in you. Congrats.

[oldmunchkin]

Just stop that munchkin. Really. Instead of trying to make more excuses, wake up and smell the coffee. Maybe we have lived paycheck-to-paycheck, and been so broke all we have is Ramen until payday. Or maybe we ate Ramen in order to save for Campbell's chunky chicken.

1) The parents are being neglectful because they're not using ANY resources or planning for their child.
2) They knew in advance about the Easter break and could have asked the school for advice to find supervision.
3) Powdered milk can be added to water and not need refrigeration.
4) People who have that low of income get WIC and foodstamps....bread and cheese and juice at least.
5) Ten year olds can go with mom to the dental clinic, wait with her, and read a book. Libraries are free.

Just stop that, GGT. There is a world outside of stocks and bonds and mortgages! Hell, millions live in the "real" world every day. The REAL world where you can't have investments, because you have nothing to invest. As an adult, a person can eat ramen noodles 3 times a day for a week if they have to...because they understand why! This child can't live on fucking ramen noodles. If that's your idea of anything closed to a balanced meal for a 10 year old, I am a bit worried!

1. I want you to explain this to me. They are using all the resources available to them for Jack! What kind of planning would you like? Maybe she can consult with the free dental clinic and make it happen on days kids are in school! FFS woman, that is part of the reason for FREE dental clinics, so kids can go if they need to! Adults are also welcome, and it's first come-first served. Had Jane been planning ahead, she would have been camped out in front of the office no later than noon on Thursday. Is that the planning you are talking about? Leaving the kid here longer than she did? You are bitching she "didn't plan" well some things can't really be planned, now can they? Or maybe John should have found a way to make sure he lost a day's pay as a result of the school's lack of good planning?
2. Yup, they knew a lot in advance, since Jack was enrolled in school on either Wednesday or Thursday. Hmmm, maybe they should have waited until after the stupidly long break, but hell, no other school districts are stupid enough to pull a stunt like this one. Or at least if they do, it's 1 time, because the parents get that shit shut down.
3. You ever used much powdered milk? Unless it's gotten a whole fucking lot better in 20 years, it would be better to put the e-coli infected water we have on the cereal, and leave the powdered shit for calves and lambs. You know, the uses powdered milk was actually approved for initially!
4. WIC ends at age 5. And according to FEDERAL guidelines, John makes too much money to qualify for food stamps. See, if you make more than $750 a month, you don't qualify for any. Or if you do, it's like a whopping $15 a month or some such nonsense. Just ask the little old lady on SS down the street. Bet she qualifies for $15 or $20 a month FS!
5. And where is that 10 year old going to be while the tooth is being pulled? The free dental clinics in Wyoming ask that you bring children needing dental work and leave all other children at home, since the receptionists and what ever other officer personnel are NOT babysitters for the time Mom/Dad is getting worked on! That's why Jack stayed with me. He spent a good part of the day at the library...with his friends...and then came to my room for quiet time.

Whenever there is physical abuse it's a big red flag of other issues. Ignoring it won't make it go away. Accepting food from an abusive person tells them "it's okay, just bring a gift when you come back". But if you've got a mother who ignores "dental health" so long it turns into abscesses, she needs EDUCATION. (Do we want to know if the kid has ever seen a dentist or is his mouth full of rotten teeth too?)

Jack just saw a dentist about 3 weeks ago. That's another reason they are so strapped for money right now. It costs real, cash money to pay the doctor/dentist/optician so your kid can enroll in school! I guess it didn't occur to you that she did without so he kid could get the care he needed!

I know you wanted to help the family, I just disagreed about the method. Continuing bad cycles is NO help at all, it just kicks the can forward and things get worse. You know that. For that kid's sake, use the internet or the phone and find him an uninvolved third party who can help his parents, and him.

Being poor doesn't have to mean being stupid. Moving around a lot doesn't have to mean living in the dregs. Being a parent means more than just feeling 'love' for your kids. And being a good neighbor sometimes means doing some really tough things. Like pressing charges or calling authorities.

Just what "uninvolved 3rd party" are you suggesting? Family Services? Police Department? In other words, those in authority who only look at the "facts" and don't see the lives involved. Of course, had the 2 officers who were here Thursday night, at my behest, thought that Jack was in any danger at all, they would have taken him then. Or did you forget the police had already been notified and seen the situation?

Moving around always means you are the dregs of society. Hell, you might have a $30million mansion on the shore somewhere, but if you travel and work during construction season, you are dirt. Just face it, you know you feel that way about those who live and work like that. If you didn't, you wouldn't be so harsh on John and Jane. If it was Joe and Jill in the house down the road, you would tell me I did the right thing the way I helped. And if it was Joe and Jill with no money for food, and everyone had to go a whopping 24 hours without a meal, you wouldn't even think twice about saying it doesn't hurt once in a while!

Do you have any clue how fucking ridiculous you sound by making excuses for scum like this? Seriously, it's beneath you.

I've been friends with construction workers before - amazingly enough they don't move from one place to another constantly. Neither do road crews. It sounds to me like this guy just can't keep a job - maybe it has something to do with the fact that he spends his time getting drunk so he can beat the shit out of his wife while his kid watches. You don't think that counts as abuse?

Also, I'm fairly sure everyone here has been grocery shopping before, so they realize that lunch meat can be bought quite cheaply - and that it also wouldn't take up much room in the half of the fridge that isn't filled with the gallon of milk. Or just buy milk by the half-gallon, instead. Or hell, just keep a box of powdered milk instead - since the purpose is just wetting down the cereal. Hell, you can make instant oatmeal in the microwave with water.

Yes, starving a child is neglect.

Hmmm, let's see. Construction season is starting up now here, so call it the middle of March, and ends, usually, the middle of October...for the colder regions of the US. Sometimes a job might take a week...sometimes a month...sometimes the whole season. Same fucking company, same exact job description, same pay. Or maybe this part of the job is done here, for the first 5 miles, so you move over to another job for a week or 2 and get that 5 miles ready, then you come back here and do the next 5 miles. I am guessing you, being in a southern region, don't have quite the jumping effect that we do out here. Oh BTW, John has worked for this company for 14 years. Guess maybe he isn't quite the "can't hold a job" guy you thought, huh?

I am fairly sure, when you are in BFE and can't get to a Wal Mart or whatever, and have to shop our rip-off joint, you are paying convenience store prices for lunch meat!

Where is the child "starving"? He just had a physical and is perfectly healthy, normal weight and development. I don't quite call that starving, do you? Sure, he has to miss a meal once in a while, that probably isn't gonna kill him!

And exposing a child to spousal abuse can be considered child abuse. In the very least, it's setting the kid up to be stuck in the same bad cycle, imitating what he sees, and confusing it for "normal" or even "Love". For all you know, this is the pattern of that family, and why they constantly move.

You should ask yourself if you're the umpteenth person, in a motel, sheltering this child from his parents, and that's why it goes on?

This really disturbs me. Especially coming from munchie who's had abusive relationships.

I know more about this family than I care to admit, since I have known John since I was a teenager. There are a lot of different things in play right now, but this family does not have a pattern of spousal abuse. I am not going to explain their marital problems, but suffice it to say they have had a rough patch, and are trying to get things back on track. A one time fuck-up does not a pattern make! Do you get that? John hasn't drank more than a beer or two at one time in probably 20 years, until Thursday night. He knows he becomes an asshole, so he just usually doesn't do that. Jane doesn't drink at all, due to a medical condition that worsens with alcohol!

I don't think I have ever seen a more well-behaved, happy, sparkly, outgoing 10 year old in my life. He truly enjoys new experiences, including new friends in every town he goes to. It took him all of 30 minutes in town to have 4 kids out here playing on the lawn with him. I don't think the moving is fucking him up too bad.

See, you and GGT, and most of the others here, are urban dwellers. You don't get that there are whole regions of this country that have to drive an hour or more to a doctor, dentist, big box store, whatever. You both seem to think I, and Jane, should just pop on down to Wally World to get our groceries. We don't have competition here in BFE...WE GET THE PRIVILEGE OF PAYING KENNY WHATEVER PRICE HE PUTS ON FOOD ITEMS! Your city area has 3 or 4 free clinics of whatever kind per month, maybe more. Central Wyoming has 1 free dental clinic and 1 free medical clinic every 3 months. The place is packed wall to wall, and the wait is long.

You are also used to the public or religious sectors of society paying for all these fancy-pants after school/vacation days/Saturday/evening programs to keep your kids busy...instead of parents actually doing it for themselves. You know, make sure you only see the kid at breakfast and bedtime, and all is good if you don't get a call from the cops. Well here we do things a bit differently. There is the library that "babysits" after school and Sundays (in the winter) and days they have off from school, providing that isn't an actual holiday the library is closed. Other than that, there is the Pastor of the Baptist Church, and his wife, who run 3 or 4 "youth nights" at the church a week. Of course, that assumes you want your child being taught the Baptist religion. Past that, there is Scouting, 1 meeting a week for both boys and girls, and school sponsored sports. In the summer, there is a public summer sports thingy, but you have to pay the cost of the kid being there.

Anyhow, will post more later. I gotta get downtown before it snows on me.

[GGT]

Me too. The good thing is that he knows it's not right. Once he thinks this is all normal behavior he is really in trouble. Otherwise he wouldn't have been crying. The kid knows it isn't right, at 10, why don't you?

Couple of things going on here. Munchie, if you really care about this kid that landed in your life, you need to hear this.

You've been trying to justify the whole mess by saying, "This is the norm for east butt fuck Wyoming". Your own life is wrapped up in that statement, but it does NOT follow that it's "normal". You've had some tough circumstances, but that does NOT mean it's okay to subject that to others, especially not children.

Most places have migrant workers, transient workers, temporary workers, and oh yeah--- poor people. They're not all out there beating up their spouses, getting drunk, leaving their kids with strangers (also in dire straits), complaining their child has no food because the motel doesn't have a full size fridge.

Also, you love to complain about the stupidity of your town's police force. After reading this story, I agree. They should have hauled that man to jail and pressed spousal abuse charges, or at least booked him for assault or drunk and disorderly. Tough shit if that means he gets fired for not showing up for work. He should have thought of that in advance and decided it'd be better to go to the motel with his wife and child. And maybe bring some fucking food for his family.

<They have a dog, now how are they feeding the damn dog? Did I read that wrong?>

If the wife couldn't take care of their child that night, or the next day while she went to the dentist, the police should have called Child Protective Services and asked them to intervene.

For the boy's sake.

[littlelolligagged]

I love how these people are now really good friends of yours, when earlier the kid was crying because he didn't know you and was left with you.

So if he is bouncing around short distances (5 miles isn't much at all), why in the hell to the wife and kid have to live a migrant life? Why can't they move into Bubba's Trailer Park and Gun Emporium (or whatever other low-cost housing is available in BFE)? Why can't the kid have a room of his own and food in his stomach? If the distance is actually too far for Dad to come home from every day, he could still make it weekends - if he doesn't have his own transportation, I'm sure he could hitch with someone going in the same direction from his crew. And wow, if they aren't moving constantly, Mom could actually work, too.

Incidentally, I'd love to know where all these free "fancy-pants after school/vacation days/Saturday/evening programs to keep your kids busy" are, because the last time I checked we pay dearly for the opportunity to run ourselves ragged. Of course, presently my kids aren't being kept busy by me, because they are outside playing to see if they can make themselves so sick from the pollen that they get to skip school Monday (alright, maybe their actual goal is to have fun, but I refuse to believe that it didn't occur to my son that if he inhales enough pollen he'll be sick). But now that I know there are fancy-pants activities provided for free by the public and religious sectors I'll never have to be entertaining again. I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy only having to see them at breakfast and bedtime, too.

[GGT]

Utter BULLSHIT, munchkin. You are trying to justify your own lifestyle history, and butt fuck Wyoming, by saying it's always been that way, and NO ONE ELSE UNDERSTANDS. Because we're either urban dwellers or have a silver spoon stuck up our asses.

I've dealt with itinerate and uneducated migrant workers, many couldn't even speak English. They left their family behind in 'better situations' and sent money home, making a sacrifice. It's almost like what military personnel do for their family (they don't drag kids to war zones). They had the maturity to make wise decisions for their family.

They'd never think beating up their wife or relying on a total stranger in a motel to take care of their wife or son was acceptable. Never. And neither should you!

You can make all the excuses you want, but they won't fly.


edit oh right, the story gets richer. Now you've known this guy since you were teenagers. And he's not really flopping around job-to-job like a gypsy. He's actually worked this way for 14 yrs, and his son is 10 yrs old. But he still can't figure out how to make it work. Any other amendments you care to make?

[oldmunchkin]

At the risk of multiple posts, I am going to take each person's remarks in separate posts. I think that will make it easier to understand, and it will be a hell of a lot easier for my scattered brain to keep in line. I am also going to take some parts line/thought by line/thought, even tho I know it drives some of you nuts. Sorry in advance.

If they live in motel rooms and their parents beat each other while one gets drunk instead of buying groceries, and don't even hesitate to leave their kids with strangers while they run errands, then yes.

First of all, most construction workers live in motels. It makes no sense to try to rent a house for the time you are in town. Some have travel trailers that they park at the jobsite or at a campground, but I'm not sure if the campgrounds are open yet.

Second, in the post I made after you made yours, you will find that getting drunk and beating on each other is NOT a normal thing, John pays for groceries, but buying enough stuff for a week and trying to keep it safe to eat, is not that easy. Yes, they do a lot of Subway, and the local choke an puke truck stop, and burgers from the bars, so that Jack has a HOT meal made with FRESH ingredients, occasionally.

Third, also in the later post, you will find I am not a stranger to the family. I have known John since I was a teenager. The Kid also went to school with John's nephew. I just had never had the occasion to meet Jane or Jack, until this past week.

Yeah, I'm sure they think it is awesome to go hungry and would suggest everyone do it.

The physical abuse was out of their control? The inability to plan and budget their money was out of their control? Did they just start living this life?

I did NOT say they enjoyed it. I said it wouldn't kill anyone to miss a meal now and then! No one said being hungry is fun. Jesus Fucking Christ on a Bloody Fucking Crutch! If anyone should know about being hungry, at this exact time and stage of life, it is me. Hell, I am living proof you can survive on less than a meal a day!

That whole statement was aimed at homeless people. Are they homeless and hungry because of circumstances beyond their control? More than likely. I wasn't talking about John and Jane. And frankly, the beginning of their fight was beyond her control.

Oh yeah, all those people who lost their jobs, their cars, their houses, and are so far in debt they can't see the light at the end of the tunnel should have budgeted better last year, or the year before, so when this happened to them, they were prepared and could avoid being homeless and/or hungry! Shit, all they had to do was plan better! Or did they just decide being homeless for a while would be fun?

They are called ice chests. Anyone who travels any amount of time and lives in motels knows that unless you want to go broke living off of fast food, you have small to medium ice chests so you can keep perishable items, because not all hotel rooms have refridgerators, and most of them, as you describe won't hold shit anyway.

And coolers get lost, stolen, or just get old and start to leak or don't keep food cold! They are also rather expensive when you can't afford one. If John goes out and replaces the one that got stolen from the jobsite a month or so ago, then he can't afford the physical/dental/optician appointment Jack needed to start in a new school, or can't afford food to put in it. Do you see where there is a vicious cycle there? Of course not, since it's all about how bad John and Jane are. No one wants to see that they are trying to do the best they can with what they have at the moment.

None of this matters. It shouldn't even be in the conversation if we were talking about responsible parents.

It matters simply because people here are always telling each other to get their facts correct. Well, in the interest of keeping things straight, I corrected GGT.

I don't see anything wrong with that, especially if you left the child with his father.

I don't see anything wrong with it either, whether there was anyone else in the room to watch him for that little amount of time or not. After all, he is 10. He is fully capable of behaving himself for the few minutes it takes the dog to "do it's business".

Me too. The good thing is that he knows it's not right. Once he thinks this is all normal behavior he is really in trouble. Otherwise he wouldn't have been crying. The kid knows it isn't right, at 10, why don't you?

FUCK!! What part of...the child had a stressful night with little sleep, his parents were angry with each other, (I don't see that as anything out of the norm when 2 people argue loudly within earshot of a child! He was scared they were angry with him or about him, that he wasn't a "good enough boy" or whatever, and they would never come back! I think most children have felt that way after seeing their parents agrue. I don't think it had much to do with the physical fight they had, other than the fact he has never seen that before.) he was left with someone he had just met and knew his Daddy knows, his Mom was in pain from the abscessed teeth and thusly grouchy with everyone, AND he was flat out tired!...does no one get? Everyone is making a big deal out of him breaking down and crying...I think it is a NORMAL way for a human being to release pent up stress and anger and whatever other emotions!

Kids can wait with their parents, and at 10 can wait until their parents are finished at the doctor. Plus, are you sure she even went to the dentist?

Again, I refer you to my post that was made after yours. The clinic in Casper has been known to turn away an adult if there is no one to take care of the child that tagged along. Yes, she went to the dentist. Where the hell else would she go with teeth like hers? And yes, I saw the abscesses before she left, and I saw the hole where the teeth are missing now! Any other really stupid questions along that line?

There are people who work jobs that don't require travelling that have the same problems, but make it with gov't assistance. But I guess once you make bad life choices, you aren't repsonsible for everything that happens because of those choices from there on out.

Again I refer you to my later post in reference to the assistance part.

And you don't find it sad that people who beat the shit out of each other, don't try to better their situation through budgeting and creative living, and have no real place to live and have no means to provide for children decide to have children and expose them to that life, and then push their problems onto other people (like yourself) who have their own problems, thus spreading the despair and drama that their choices breed? You think that we should just accept all that as normal? We shouldn't expect or work towards something better? They should be grateful for the bed they've made for themselves and not have one bit of remorse for the calamity of a life that they have brought children into?

Not only are you an enabler, but you also love drama and are drawn to it. I know lots of people that are the exact same way. They think they are doing people a favor by getting involved in their drama, when they can't even take care of their own. Now what happens when the violence carries over into your life? Now what happens when your financial situation gets worse when you volunteer to help them with food needs and such?

I'm all for helping people, but not by just giving them what they need when they are adults and should figure out how to provide for themselves instead of depending on me for a crutch. These people love crutches, and found one in you. Congrats.

I seriously don't know whether to laugh, cry, or get angry over this bullshit. I guess you think there should be an income guideline before being allowed to have children. That way there would never be any question if the parents could afford food and a big house and all that jazz. It is a completely different story if they would buy it, but hey...they can afford it!

I also want to know how a fight that, one time in the marriage, got physical has all of a sudden blown up into OMGZ, they beat the shit out of each other every day! It's shit like this that do get people fired from jobs. People that want to exaggerate a one time incident into a marathon punch fest! SHEESH!

John and Jane ARE trying to provide for Jack and themselves. They are working off the winter lay-off bills, so money is damned tight the first part of the season. John didn't go South to work last winter because Jane's doctor advised she shouldn't be in the humidity while recovering from an illness. (No, I don't know what she had.) Usually the company he works for keeps them working year round if they want to keep working. Of course I had better clarify that statement. Winter, for construction workers in the North, is usually Mid-October thru Mid-March!

[oldmunchkin]

Couple of things going on here. Munchie, if you really care about this kid that landed in your life, you need to hear this.

You've been trying to justify the whole mess by saying, "This is the norm for east butt fuck Wyoming". Your own life is wrapped up in that statement, but it does NOT follow that it's "normal". You've had some tough circumstances, but that does NOT mean it's okay to subject that to others, especially not children.

Most places have migrant workers, transient workers, temporary workers, and oh yeah--- poor people. They're not all out there beating up their spouses, getting drunk, leaving their kids with strangers (also in dire straits), complaining their child has no food because the motel doesn't have a full size fridge.

Also, you love to complain about the stupidity of your town's police force. After reading this story, I agree. They should have hauled that man to jail and pressed spousal abuse charges, or at least booked him for assault or drunk and disorderly. Tough shit if that means he gets fired for not showing up for work. He should have thought of that in advance and decided it'd be better to go to the motel with his wife and child. And maybe bring some fucking food for his family.

<They have a dog, now how are they feeding the damn dog? Did I read that wrong?>

If the wife couldn't take care of their child that night, or the next day while she went to the dentist, the police should have called Child Protective Services and asked them to intervene.

For the boy's sake.

Some of this was addressed in my last post and some of it was not.

First of all, had there been arrests made it would have been both of them, since they both assaulted each other according to Wyoming law. It makes no difference if she fought back to defend herself, if she hit him, (and she did) she is equally "guilty" at that time and can be jailed if the officers are not being nice, like these two were.

If they had both been arrested, or she asked for governmental help for care the next day, then Jack would be "in the system" and quite possibly not have gotten out without a long, drawn-out court battle. How is that going to help Jack?

Utter BULLSHIT, munchkin. You are trying to justify your own lifestyle history, and butt fuck Wyoming, by saying it's always been that way, and NO ONE ELSE UNDERSTANDS. Because we're either urban dwellers or have a silver spoon stuck up our asses.

I've dealt with itinerate and uneducated migrant workers, many couldn't even speak English. They left their family behind in 'better situations' and sent money home, making a sacrifice. It's almost like what military personnel do for their family (they don't drag kids to war zones). They had the maturity to make wise decisions for their family.

They'd never think beating up their wife or relying on a total stranger in a motel to take care of their wife or son was acceptable. Never. And neither should you!

You can make all the excuses you want, but they won't fly.


edit oh right, the story gets richer. Now you've known this guy since you were teenagers. And he's not really flopping around job-to-job like a gypsy. He's actually worked this way for 14 yrs, and his son is 10 yrs old. But he still can't figure out how to make it work. Any other amendments you care to make?

I really do sometimes feel like you and I are from completely different planets! The thing is, I have visited your "planet" and didn't much like it, so I came back to my own! At least on my planet, people care about other people and aren't afraid to help each other...even if we don't know them and are down on our own luck. All I ever got on the "Urban planet" was, we don't want your kind in our back yard, or we don't know the person living across the hall because we don't want to get involved, and other such unfeeling vibes. I'm sorry if that's not the way it is where you live, and I know, better than many, that it is NOT all "Urbanites" who act this way. It just seems to be the prevailing attitude.

I guess transient work, such as road construction, is different here than there. Here it is very seasonal and can be very stressful for all involved. Would you prefer he leave her somewhere else, in a shitty slum-lord owned firetrap, while he goes to work? How would that be better for anyone? And don't tell me he can afford better. I know the wages these guys are making and it is not enough to support a completely separate house and him on the road.

What the fuck? You are saying that an illegal alien, who is taking away a much needed job from an American citizen, is a better person than a man trying his damnedest to support his wife and child? In case you don't realize it, that illegal alien is part of the reason jobs like this pay shit wages. If you can get some dude who doesn't speak English, therefore not realizing he is getting fucked on pay, to do the job for $.50 an hour, why the fuck would you hire the legal citizen for $15.00 an hour?

I kinda hate to tell you this, but almost anyone who has ever spent any length of time here, whether a month or 10 years, has probably met almost everyone in town! I don't see why you are surprised that I have known John that long...He just hasn't been in BFE for a number of years so I haven't had the pleasure of meeting his wife and son before this week.

I love how these people are now really good friends of yours, when earlier the kid was crying because he didn't know you and was left with you.

So if he is bouncing around short distances (5 miles isn't much at all), why in the hell to the wife and kid have to live a migrant life? Why can't they move into Bubba's Trailer Park and Gun Emporium (or whatever other low-cost housing is available in BFE)? Why can't the kid have a room of his own and food in his stomach? If the distance is actually too far for Dad to come home from every day, he could still make it weekends - if he doesn't have his own transportation, I'm sure he could hitch with someone going in the same direction from his crew. And wow, if they aren't moving constantly, Mom could actually work, too.

Incidentally, I'd love to know where all these free "fancy-pants after school/vacation days/Saturday/evening programs to keep your kids busy" are, because the last time I checked we pay dearly for the opportunity to run ourselves ragged. Of course, presently my kids aren't being kept busy by me, because they are outside playing to see if they can make themselves so sick from the pollen that they get to skip school Monday (alright, maybe their actual goal is to have fun, but I refuse to believe that it didn't occur to my son that if he inhales enough pollen he'll be sick). But now that I know there are fancy-pants activities provided for free by the public and religious sectors I'll never have to be entertaining again. I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy only having to see them at breakfast and bedtime, too.

I am guessing you don't understand how road construction is done, at least out here where the weather can change in the next 3 minutes. John is a truck driver. As long as there is materials to be trucked at this location he will be here. When they get all the materials for the first 5 miles of work trucked in, then the drivers are usually moved to another location, anywhere from 50 to 450+ miles from here! Then they truck in the materials for the first 5 miles of work at that location, then the drivers are sent to another location. That might be back here for the next 5 miles of work, or it might be 400 miles in the opposite direction.

Once again...I will try to explain how there is NOTHING for rent in BFE right now, and only 6 or 7 houses that are for sale. (There are quite a few in the final stages that are not being shown anymore.) Do you honestly think I would be living in a fucking motel room if there was a Goddamned place to rent in this town? We have families with 3 and 4 kids living in 1 and 2 bedroom houses/apartments, because there is nothing larger for rent! So...keeping in mind reality for a moment here, yes, it would be better for Jack to have a room of his own. It would also be better for John and Jane to have a space they could be alone. (Quickie in the shower doesn't work for long if you want to keep a good marriage working.)

Let's see...how about Boys/Girls Clubs, actual Scout troops that have a building where they can gather, YMCA, church or state or federal subsidized rec centers, indoor swimming pools, indoor rec centers with things like handball and racquetball courts, basketball courts, exercise equipment, and so on. All those things that a little place like BFE has NONE of! If they aren't completely free, they are sure as hell low-cost if you buy memberships or monthly passes or whatever!

[Catgrrl]

Please don't generalize everyone into some sort of Urbanite because we aren't from your town. We've got people in this area that seem to think if you aren't from their county, you couldn't possibly understand the situation. Well, we all have shit happen to us.

I don't know what you want everyone to say. The original post certainly makes the parents look bad. Yes, we don't know their lives, their history, etc.

I feel horrible for the kid. Kids are always being punished for the decisions of the parents. Its unfair but its life. I only hope this awful time in his life may push him to do better, so that he and his children and the future won't starve.

I also hope that maybe "John" and "Jane" will get their lives together after this blowout, and understand that THEY have to make sacrifices for "Jack". It's hard when you have to live paycheck to paycheck, and I'm glad they can at least have him in a place to sleep.

We all hit the bottom one time in our lives, what matters is if you can pick yourself back up again. Sometimes it takes alot of work, but you can make things work so that your kid can have a few meals a day. Yes, an adult can live on one meal a day. Growing children need food in order to maintain health.

I'm sorry it seems from your posts that you live in a truly hellish area, where people can't rely on assistance in troubled times. It's rough not knowing that you can turn to someone.

That being said, as hard as it is to separate from your family, if it means your child getting better arrangements, wouldn't an able bodied adult find work in another area so that he can send money back to mom and kid? There are options, I think that in bleak times there are those that give up and those that strive harder. It's their choice on what path they want to choose. You aren't bound by fate; you are bound by your own limits. I know in this economy you cant really get work anywhere, so maybe at this time its not easy.

Anyway, I hope that Jack will be okay, and that he can learn that his parents do love him, just are in a rough spot. I hope he doesn't take a dark path in the future.

[Hazir]

Well, what can I say? There are definately some red flags in this family's story. However, what I would like to ask those who have answered from their nice middle class kitchens is; how is the situation of this child going to improve if you take one or even two of his parents out of his life? I think that these parents are doing a lousy job caring for their child, let there be no mistake about that. Munchkin makes way too many amends for their faillure, but that doesn't mean that being taken out of this crummy situation is really going to make Jack's life better.

[littlelolligagged]

So it's preferable for him to be left in a situation where he isn't even fed regular meals, Hazir?

Living in a motel short-term while you are getting back on your feet is one thing, but Munchkin makes this sound like a regular way of life for these people. So yes, taking him out of this crummy situation could very well make his life better. Assuming his parents actually do love him like she claims, it would force them into getting their shit together so they could have him back.

[Hazir]

So it's preferable for him to be left in a situation where he isn't even fed regular meals, Hazir?

Living in a motel short-term while you are getting back on your feet is one thing, but Munchkin makes this sound like a regular way of life for these people. So yes, taking him out of this crummy situation could very well make his life better. Assuming his parents actually do love him like she claims, it would force them into getting their shit together so they could have him back.

Sometimes missing a meal isn't really the worst thing that can happen to you. Where is this boy going to wind up if he's not with his parents?

[littlelolligagged]

Sometimes missing a meal isn't really the worst thing that can happen to you. Where is this boy going to wind up if he's not with his parents?

I'd assume foster care - which isn't always all bad. Of course there are horror stories, but there are piss-poor parents who do equally terrible things to their children all the time.

Regularly eating only one meal a day isn't "sometimes missing a meal," Hazir. It's absolutely unacceptable, particularly when there are simple and inexpensive options available that meet the crappy available storage requirements.

Frankly, if the situation in Munchkin's town is that dreadful, why the hell is anyone staying there.

[Catgrrl]

What I was saying was that the dad (or mom) could try to look for a job in a different area. Heck, even a trucker job will pay regularly. Hubby's dad was a trucker for years before he broke his back. My point is, you have to keep trying, for the sake of your child. When you have a kid who needs proper care, you have to put your own wants and needs on the back burner. As old fashioned as this may sound, and I know alot of people don't agree: when you bring a child in this world your life no longer revolves around you. Your comforts should come second to the child.
I'm not saying that happens in this situation, just that I know people that would take 2 and 3 part time jobs just so their kids can have a few good meals a day, a roof over their head.
If you have no choice but to give a child one meal a day, then so be it. But I'll hope that the parents aren't eating either.

P.S. to the milk debate, you can eat cereal without milk. Cheerios can fill a belly when they are dry just as much as they would in milk.

[Hazir]

I'd assume foster care - which isn't always all bad. Of course there are horror stories, but there are piss-poor parents who do equally terrible things to their children all the time.

Regularly eating only one meal a day isn't "sometimes missing a meal," Hazir. It's absolutely unacceptable, particularly when there are simple and inexpensive options available that meet the crappy available storage requirements.

Frankly, if the situation in Munchkin's town is that dreadful, why the hell is anyone staying there.

Well, there is little debate about these parents simply failing at the task they took upon themselves when they put this boy in the world. I also don't quite buy this attitude where there appear to be 10 new problems for every suggested solution.

Still for many children like Jack being taken into foster care may be a worse fate than not getting three square meals a day. I remember how after the divorce of my parents I would rather not tell people how incredibly hard things were at home than risk being taken out of that same home. Though I must admit, my mother pulled herself out of that situation relatively fast. And the days of missing meals were forgotten pretty fast.

[littlelolligagged]

My problem here is that we have been given the impression that there is nothing temporary about this situation.

[Dreadnaught]

I agree that this is a really bad situation. What I'm not following is how Munchkin is enabling it...is it because she's taking the kids off their hands so they don't have to worry?

[rumrunner]

I read most of the beginning of this discussion, until it became redundant. Munchie, your compassion for this family is admirable. I know how hard it can be watch something like this and feel powerless. Your desire to help them without breaking them up is quite understandable. But the reality is that this family needs some sort of intervention, some help. Their econonomic circumstances aside, the child is witnessing and possibly suffering abuse. This is not okay by any civilised standard, if no one else will do anything for this kid, it is your moral obligation to do whatever you can to help. I know you'll guilty if the family is broken up (i.e. the child removed, or the father jailed). but the child's future is paramount in this discussion. Besides, the system will offer the parents various resources to better themselves, and the chance to get their son back, if that's the case.
You seem to take gigi and lolli's comments as an attack on this family's, and by extension, your lifestyle/situation. Maybe they don't understand what it can be like, but they know right from wrong. Please don't confuse elitism with ignorance (I'm not saying either of you are elitist). The truth is, it can be a very difficult and thankless task to do the right thing, but it's up to you to do it. The next fight, call the cops. Make it sound worse than it is if you have to, as long as help comes.

[termite]

I agree that this is a really bad situation. What I'm not following is how Munchkin is enabling it...is it because she's taking the kids off their hands so they don't have to worry?

Yeah I'm not big on this "enabler" label, Munch is just helping a kid in a shitty situation - she also admitted to calling the cops when there was a physical confrontation so she is not condoning the violence.

What is it exactly that people think Munch should do? Personally I think the situation has nothing to do with her and by offering to help look after a kid that would otherwise be neglected, this should be seen as a positive influence in an otherwise shitty situation. There are a myriad of things wrong with the whole story but Munch's part in the affair is a small but positive one for the child.

On a related note, I tend to view the term "enabler" as really just a modern American jingoistic bullshit way of shifting the blame from the perpetrators to those around them who are usually only guilty of doing their best in a shitty situation.

[oldmunchkin]

Ok. I am going to try this one more time, now that I am not as rushed as I was when I first posted this.

1.) Jane and John have a 10 year old son, Jack.
2.) John works road construction, so the family lives in motel rooms in the town nearest to the jobsite. They do this for a variety of reasons, but mainly to keep the 3 of them together as much as possible and to maintain a lifestyle that enables all of them to have food and shelter.
3.) John has been with the same company for 14 years.
4.) Right now they are all under incredible stress as John had to take lay off last winter instead of moving South with the company, because Jane's doctor said the humidity would not be good for her recovery of an unstated (I really don't know!) illness she had last fall.
5.) Altho I have personally known John since I was a teenager, this is the first time I have ever had the opportunity and privilege of meeting his wife and son.
6.) Thursday night, John got shit-faced, falling down, slam-hammered fuckered up for the first time in at least 10 years, if not longer! John doesn't do this anymore because he is a complete asshole when he drinks to excess, AND HE KNOWS IT!
7.) John and Jane got into a physical altercation.
8.) Jane took the dog outside. That is where I "met" her while I was out taking a short walk before bed. She was crying hysterically, completely confused and dazed since John had never laid a hand on her before!
9.) I told Jane to get Jack and for them to come to my room at the motel. John got belligerent and refused to let her take Jack from their room.
10.) A shoving match ensued. I went back to my room and called the fucking cops!
11.) The cops arrived and got the situation calmed down. Since neither Jane nor John wanted to press charges against the other, and John agreed to let Jane and Jack come to my room for the night, no one was arrested.
12.) Friday, John had to go to work and Jane needed to go to the free dental clinic in Casper. I agreed to watch Jack for the day.
13.) When John got off work, he went and cashed his paycheck and brought Jack and I bacon cheeseburgers from the Pub, since he knew Jack hadn't had anything to eat since the pizza they had on Thursday evening.

Ok, that is broken down into the important points of the story.

Lolli and GGT seem to think I did something wrong in lending a hand to someone in need, mainly a 10 year old boy who was dazed and confused by all the bullshit he isn't use to seeing. They also seem to think this boy would be better off in foster care, being treated like yesterday's dog shit or being mentally/physically/sexually abused or being treated as slave labor or being seen as a few more bucks from the state/federal government and a few more bucks in food stamps a month, than he is with 2 parents who love him more than anything. FFS, Johns' nephew brought over a "used" pair of work boots for John, since he had wound duct tape around his old ones in the hopes of making them last until after they had caught up on the expenses of getting Jack into school here...including new clothes and shoes so he wouldn't feel "poor" or "not good enough"! Jane had neglected her teeth to the point she had 2 abscessed ones that were pouring poison into her system...because Jack needed a physical, a dental check up, and an eye exam before he could start school!

Neither John or Jane eat more than 1 meal a day, with the extra money going toward Jack getting no less than 2 meals a day, usually. This last week was an oddity because of the cash that was paid out for Jack's physical, meaning he had to have only 1 meal on Friday. Does that sound like 2 people who neglect their child on purpose? Or does that maybe sound like a family that is down on it's luck right now? But, GGT and Lolli seem to think that it's NOT EVER ok for a family to be down on it's luck. That it should ALWAYS be possible for a kid to have 3 square meals a day, with NO EXCEPTIONS. They also seem to think that John and Jane were irresponsible for allowing Jack to stay with me for the day.

The other thing I am completely confused about is this wild idea that it is somehow irresponsible of John and Jane to try to live together as a family. I don't quite know what they think these people should be doing, but living together isn't it, that's for sure. Lolli seems to think it's neglect to make the child change schools, sometimes a couple times a school year. I say, if construction workers are neglecting their children by making them change schools, then so are military families, any family that moves for the purpose of a new job or job advancement. Hell, who cares if you have NO job where you are, have no unemployment benefits, and there is no assistance program to help you...if you have kids in school, stay the fuck there until they graduate! No exceptions...it is abuse and neglect to make a child change schools!

Ok, gonna try to address a few other specific points from different people. Bear with me if I mess this up somewhere along the line tho, ok?

Catgrrl, I really try not to generalize people but it is a very true fact that life in some of these larger area/smaller population states is completely different from life in the smaller area/larger population states. Our needs are different, our jobs are different, our infrastructure is different, our economy is different, and our assistance/intervention programs are completely different. There are times I feel like I am speaking in a different language altogether. Here we tend to be more wary of governmental assistance/interference and rely more on each other.

Lolli, people stay here, in this so-called hellish town because it is a hell of a lot better than being piled on top of each other in some fucking city where there are 1500 people applying for 100 jobs at Wal Mart. Then the 1400 that aren't hired trample each other getting either to the next dead-end job interview or the unemployment/welfare office. Sure, there are drawbacks to "here", but most of the time the advantages completely out-weigh the disadvantages. Sometime, I'll try to explain what I mean by that but not tonight. As GGT would say, this is turning into another "tome post".

Catgrrl, John was an over-the-road trucker for about 15 years, before going to work for ABConstruction. (Not it's real name!) He blames the loss of his first marriage to that job. Hell, he was never home. He has 2 older kids that he hasn't talked to since the death of his Mother about 5 years ago. They say that Dad was never home, didn't care enough about them to try to be closer to them when they were growing up, was never there for the school programs, birthdays, illnesses and whatnot, so why should they care to talk to him now. He is determined that will NOT happen with Jack. I can't say as I can fault his thinking there!

Hazir, thanks for reading between the lines and getting more of the story that was there to be seen on top. You are really good at that.

Gee Lolli, could the reason you think this isn't temporary be because it isn't? What part of this is a man, working a full time job, trying to make a living for his family is temporary, in your opinion? I know, you think it's horrible this kid is growing up in motel rooms, moving from town to town with the work, changing schools, meeting new people, seeing different places, learning about new things, having different experiences and generally becoming a well-rounded person. You think the only way for Jack to have a "normal" life is for John and Jane to buy a house they can't afford, in a more urban area where the cost of living is higher, and put Jack into a school where, if he is lucky, he will be happy, well-rounded and popular. If he isn't lucky, he will be bullied, abused, beat on, kicked, spit at, and generally made to feel like a fucking failure every Goddamned day for 13 years! Of course, John has to quit a job he is well qualified for, making decent money, and try to find something he might have a chance at being qualified to do in a more urban setting. Hmmm, guess he could flip burgers at McD's.

Thanks Dread! I have been trying to figure out that same thing all evening.

Rumrummer, I think I addressed some of your concerns above. If not, feel free to ask whatever and I'll try to tell you what's going on.

termite, I don't feel this child is neglected in any way. His parents had a blow-up and he, along with his Mom, needed a place to sleep for the night. The next day his parents had a scheduling conflict, so I watched the child. As stated earlier, John has never been abusive to Jane before. Jack has never witnessed anything like this before. The vast majority of parents have a scheduling conflict on occasion, necessitating a "babysitter". I just happened to be the sitter that day. Oooops, wonder how bad I corrupted his young mind in 12 hours?

[2HD]

Thanks for your latest post. Information is good. With more info, I would like to start over as my last posts were made with a lot of assumptions.

The other thing I am completely confused about is this wild idea that it is somehow irresponsible of John and Jane to try to live together as a family. I don't quite know what they think these people should be doing, but living together isn't it, that's for sure. Lolli seems to think it's neglect to make the child change schools, sometimes a couple times a school year. I say, if construction workers are neglecting their children by making them change schools, then so are military families, any family that moves for the purpose of a new job or job advancement. Hell, who cares if you have NO job where you are, have no unemployment benefits, and there is no assistance program to help you...if you have kids in school, stay the fuck there until they graduate! No exceptions...it is abuse and neglect to make a child change schools!

I think this is the part that most people have a problem with. It seems neglectful to drag your family around on your gypsy like work schedule instead of establishing a home somewhere, create some kind of stable life for your family and send the money home.

My Father-In-Law (FIL) drove a log truck his entire life. My wife had 4 brothers and 1 sister. The never lived in a hotel room, but they did move quite a bit growing up (I think they moved at least 6 times before my wife graduated high school). They always lived in rural areas (wherever the timber was), and they did the best they could with what they had. Times were tough a lot of the time, and none of them would tell you they had a perfect childhood. They went without a lot, there was a lot of hand-me-downs and such. Tempers flared from time to time, things were thrown, people were hit, people yelled. But they are all grown now, and they all talk to their parents, give them a place to stay whenever they want, so on and so forth. Except for the youngest one, who intentionally ran over his father with his truck last night, but that had nothing to do with FIL's job and everything to do with the way he was raised differently than the others.

Catgrrl, John was an over-the-road trucker for about 15 years, before going to work for ABConstruction. (Not it's real name!) He blames the loss of his first marriage to that job. Hell, he was never home. He has 2 older kids that he hasn't talked to since the death of his Mother about 5 years ago. They say that Dad was never home, didn't care enough about them to try to be closer to them when they were growing up, was never there for the school programs, birthdays, illnesses and whatnot, so why should they care to talk to him now. He is determined that will NOT happen with Jack. I can't say as I can fault his thinking there!

Wow, I didn't even read this before I posted about my FIL.

I can understand him not wanted to repeat the past, but it's always been my belief that jobs don't ruin marriages and parent\child relationships, people do. They might not know what they are doing at the time, especially if they are young and new to being married and being parents, but ultimately, not being home is not reason to stop loving someone whether you are a child or a spouse.

Based on new information, I don't see anything wrong with you helping these people out. The reason the word "enabler" was thrown around is because it was assumed that this was a common these with these people.

[Catgrrl]

For the record, I don't think you are an enabler either. You did what you could in an unfortunate situation. I think most people were just surprised at the excuses made for what caused the situation to escalate to the point it did. Like I stated before, we all have hit rock bottom at one time or another, and it's up to us to pick ourselves back up and make sure we don't hit it again.

Trucker jobs are hard, but so is military, on the road sales, etc. If you have a strong marriage and work hard to keep it strong (it's no walk in the park) it can work. Also, I was thinking more like during the "off season" for construction. My uncle is in construction, and ya, unless there is a storm during the winter there isn't much work. So, he got his captain's license and charters boats in the winter (mostly moving other people boats down to Florida and then back again when weather improves). He doesn't have kids though, other than his two chow-chows.

My only point was that in tough times, you have to get tough and make sure you have enough money to pay the bills, even if it means being separated temporarily. Even though, yes, I always lived in a house, my Dad sometimes worked 7 days a week, 12 hour days, so that he could pay for what we needed. So, there were times when I saw him at dinner only, and he passed out not much later from being tired.

I wasn't pointing fingers at you. With your new post, it doesn't sound so damning for the parents. There are kids here living in motel efficiencies. And while I feel bad for their situation, I am glad they at least have a place to stay and aren't in the cold. Our city recognizes it's an issue enough to send school buses to pick them up for school, so it's not a hidden thing here in my not quite urban setting.