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Thread: H1-B: loophole?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The work won't be done in India because there are numerous challenges that arise from outsourcing jobs. A large portion of the jobs that were outsourced a decade ago were moved back to the US because of those unforeseen challenges. Most of those problems don't exist if you simply get people from third world countries to come to the US to do those jobs at half the cost and then replace them with a new wave of third world workers when they start demanding higher pay. So no, the alternative isn't outsourcing, but keeping Americans in those same jobs.

    I'm curious, would you support expanding this program to every industry then? If there are accountants, actuaries, or even bartenders and plumbers from the third world who would be willing to come here for 2 years to do those jobs at half the American cost, just to be promptly replaced by a new wave of workers from those same countries, would you be ok with that?
    Don't see a huge problem. While I don't support unlimited migration I'm comfortable with what you're proposing. Lower cost of labor (white collar or blue collar) leads to lower prices for consumers.

    And while there are issues with outsourcing - as the technology improves we'll see more and more of it. This is a global economy we can't bury our heads in the sand and ignore it or put in place isolationist policies that allow us to delay fully competing with the world.

  2. #32
    You're ignoring the fact that as long as there are poor countries in the world, there will be people who'd be willing to come here to work at a fraction of the American cost. Do you really want millions of temporary workers who owe their loyalty entirely to the firm they work for? Can't see how that would lead to abuse?
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  3. #33
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    I'm one of those outsourced, then rebadged to the same company that was out sourced to.

    Most of the team is in India. So I'm not sure what problems you are referring to Loki that means the jobs came back.

    If you are referring to CSR's, yes, most folks do NOT want to talk to an overseas agent about their disability claim and those came back, but for what I do and those higher up the tech chain I'm in, it can be done offshore.

    It's just not as efficient.
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  4. #34
    Google insourcing. Here's one link: http://www.economist.com/node/18682182
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #35
    Loki is right -- the H1B visa loopholes allow employers (mostly in the tech industry) to pay lower wages to highly educated people from other countries. That's not "out-sourcing" but "in-sourcing".

    Then he says things like:

    I'm curious, would you support expanding this program to every industry then? If there are accountants, actuaries, or even bartenders and plumbers from the third world who would be willing to come here for 2 years to do those jobs at half the American cost, just to be promptly replaced by a new wave of workers from those same countries, would you be ok with that?


  6. #36
    This is mostly directed at Loki since he's had the most thoughtful critique of H-1Bs. I think there are legitimate issues with H1-B visas from at least two perspectives: firstly, that of potentially displaced American employees, and secondly, that of potentially mistreated foreign workers. Let's take the foreign workers first:

    Foreign workers are very much beholden to their H-1B sponsors - if they are fired, they have to either immediately get a new sponsor (no formal grace period exists), switch to another visa, or leave the country. Furthermore, if they want to get a green card through the H-1B process (under dual intent), they are pretty much stuck with a single employer for the entire time. That gives employers a great deal of leverage over workers in terms of wages, working conditions, etc. This is potentially a very big problem, and not one that affects workers under other visas as much (such as ones with a clear path to permanent resident status).

    American workers, on the other hand, can potentially be displaced from their jobs by H-1B holders who are 'exempt' from non-displacement etc. provisions for highly paid or highly trained workers. Since this constitutes the bulk of H-1B visa holders, it is potentially a big problem. Theoretically, given the aforementioned leverage that companies have over foreign workers in the H-1B program, they can pay workers substantially less than the equivalently skilled American worker, providing a big incentive to avoid hiring Americans in favor of H-1B holders.

    Now, the people who made (and revised) the program over the last couple decades are not idiots, and they are aware of these problematic incentives. That's why there are ostensibly rules on the books requiring firms to complete an LCA, which among other things certifies that the H-1B holder is being paid a wage commensurate with their skill level - i.e., they aren't undercutting American workers, and aren't being exploited on wages. This rule applies even to 'exempt' workers who don't have to worry about proving non-displacement and the like. So this wage parity clause should solve many of these problems - the issue is that there are a lot of ways to game the system, and there is inadequate enforcement. So I don't think the solution is to scrap the H1-B system entirely, but instead to improve enforcement of the wage parity clauses (similarly, there are clauses protecting foreign workers from other forms of abuse in e.g. working conditions). If this was actually done well, the incentive to deprioritize American workers would largely disappear, especially given the innate advantages natives have in terms of language and cultural skills.

    However, there would still be an exploitative truth underlying how H-1B workers are beholden to their sponsors - they can't leave. This is a genuine flaw in the program, and IMO needs to be fixed by allowing for a fixed grace period between jobs to allow an H-1B to port from one employer to another within a reasonable amount of time (60 days? 90?), while preserving the worker's place in line for permanent residency status. This would probably solve a lot of the remaining problems.

    Finally, I want to address the job displacement concerns a bit more. Even though displacement would likely be much less of a problem if wage parity etc. was enforced better, it's worth noting that many H-1B holders are not the TCS cliches in horror stories reported in the press. Many are people who have lived in the US for years as students and are very much hoping to settle here indefinitely - the H1-B is one of the (somewhat) easier methods to stay in the country after graduation while seeking permanent residency status (I personally know a great number of very bright motivated students who have taken this route, if they manage to win the visa lottery). These are not complete strangers to the US, nor are they people who will work for a few years, send the bulk of their earnings home, and then return. Many visa holders see it as a route to permanent residency, after which they will pursue their ambitions - which given the highly talented and go-getter cohort we're talking about, may indeed involve startups and job creation. Giving H-1B visa holders with high skills jobs is not a zero sum game for American workers - rather, it adds to our (potential) pool of job creators and makes all of us richer. Personally, I'd prefer that all of the brightest minds in the world come here to get educated, then stay here to innovate, create value, and make all of us rich.

    There's no doubt that the rosy picture I paint is not how all of these visas are used - there are abuses, and better rules and better enforcement of existing rules are necessary to curtail said abuses. But the program itself is not wrong-headed, nor is it irredeemable in either conception or execution. I'd prefer it if there were an easier path to permanent residency for highly skilled workers, but in the absence of legislative action on the matter, the H-1B program isn't bad.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  7. #37
    Michio Kaku has an amazing video on the H1B and it's necessity to keep America relevant as a country. I'll summarize it here and post a link. In short, Michio Kaku claims that the H1b is what allows America to be the brain drain of the world. It's what allows America to readily take the worlds best and brightest, and because we do this it snowballs and perpetuates itself. WE have the best and brightest so it attracts the best and brightest etc... if we discontinued the H1B it'd severely hurt our position in the world, especially when you look at the lack luster nature of our early education system.

    Here's the video, informative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK0Y9j_CGgM

  8. #38
    Wig, I more or less agree with what you said, but I also don't think the problem will be solved simply because it's not in the interest of the main beneficiaries of this program to solve it. I think a far better solution, both economically and morally, is to replace these visas entirely with a skilled immigration system, like they have in Canada, Britain, and Australia. It severs the cord between employers and foreign workers, while encouraging the very same people to come to the US, except they'd be treated like all other immigrants. Why not have a point system where people in certain professions get extra points? In Britain, you get a lot of points from getting a college degree in Britain, so this system would be even more beneficial to foreigners who study in the US than the H1-B system.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  9. #39
    Tata said the company is cooperating with the Labor Department's ongoing probe and is "fully compliant" with U.S. immigration laws. Southern California Edison said its contracts with Infosys and Tata require both firms to follow all "applicable laws."
    The case we are discussing is outsourcing. Southern Edison and Disney are not hiring these particular H1B workers, Infosys and Tata are. Southern Edison and Disney are contracting with Infosys and Tata to outsource their IT positions. Anyone here even bother reading the opening post?

    insourcing
    /ˈɪnˌsɔːsɪŋ/
    noun
    1.
    the practice of subcontracting work to another company that is under the same general ownership
    outsource
    [out-sawrs, ‐sohrs]

    Examples
    Word Origin

    verb (used with object), outsourced, outsourcing.
    1.
    (of a company or organization) to purchase (goods) or subcontract (services) from an outside supplier or source.
    Last edited by Being; 09-13-2015 at 06:22 PM.
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  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Lebanese Dragon View Post
    Michio Kaku has an amazing video on the H1B and its necessity to keep America relevant as a country. I'll summarize it here and post a link. In short, Michio Kaku claims that the H1b is what allows America to be the brain drain of the world. It's what allows America to readily take the worlds best and brightest, and because we do this it snowballs and perpetuates itself. WE have the best and brightest so it attracts the best and brightest etc... if we discontinued the H1B it'd severely hurt our position in the world, especially when you look at the lack luster nature of our early education system.

    Here's the video, informative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK0Y9j_CGgM
    But that argument is just flawed. It just devalues engineering degrees, instead (and makes US university education less appealing)... along with the issues that wiggin mentioned.



    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    The case we are discussing is outsourcing. Southern Edison and Disney are not hiring these particular H1B workers, Infosys and Tata are. Southern Edison and Disney are contracting with Infosys and Tata to outsource their IT positions. Anyone here even bother reading the opening post?
    I read the Disney H1-B replacement article a while ago, and I didn't hear anything about HCL Technologies... but in any event, it's semantics.

  11. #41
    And semantics aren't important in a discussion about H1B visas? Everyone here seems to be arguing the case for direct hire H1B and that is not what this case is about.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
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  12. #42
    Well, a human resources company providing the H1-B candidates versus a cattle call doesn't make a difference in the end result. In neither case would the hires have occurred without H1-B.

    Anyway.. beyond the loopholes, my biggest issue is the hypocrisy of tech companies pleading for cheap labor at home while hiring cheaper labor from abroad. Also interesting is how many of these tech companies won't commit to actually having significant (or any) satellite offices (even if in other places in the US!) or hiring remote.. corporate paranoia? I think so.

  13. #43
    Just so I understand your objection, Loki...it's that companies who hire via H1Bs are simultaneously abusing the H1B visaholders while also depressing wages?

    I agree a skilled immigration system is very much needed (something Jeb Bush can talk your ear off if anyone was listening). But your angst sounds like protectionism, when I don't think that's what you really mean.

  14. #44
    Yes, that's what I'm saying. Given how the system works, companies have a huge incentive to mistreat their workers (not saying that they do, but the incentive is there), particularly when it comes to fair compensation. And given that there are always third world workers out there willing to work for less, this does depress wages in any affected profession. I don't buy the bullshit about an insufficient number of American workers in many of the applicable fields when there are numerous cases of American workers being told to train their H1-B replacements.

    And sure, opposing these visas is a form of protectionism. I believe the social consequences outweigh any economic gains. Are you actually entirely in support of unrestricted movement of labor? Would you support an unlimited guest worker program for all (non-security) jobs? Maybe we can temporarily import a few million construction workers to decrease wages there? I hear it's working in the southwest. Or how about importing any English-speaking doctor as long as they're willing to work for half the price?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Or how about importing any English-speaking doctor as long as they're willing to work for half the price?
    As long as the medical outcomes are similar hell yes. Screw the AMA and their protectionist practices.

    Though I wonder what Loki's real concern is.

    1. His primary concern is for the plight of the poor H1-B worker who has no protect from their evil overlords.

    2. His primary concern is protectionist in nature and the 'plight' of the H1-B worker is just an argument, not the real concern he has.

    I'm leaning towards #2 because if you asked the random H1-B worker if they prefer the system as it is now compared to no program in place... guess which one they'll pick?

  16. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Wig, I more or less agree with what you said, but I also don't think the problem will be solved simply because it's not in the interest of the main beneficiaries of this program to solve it. I think a far better solution, both economically and morally, is to replace these visas entirely with a skilled immigration system, like they have in Canada, Britain, and Australia. It severs the cord between employers and foreign workers, while encouraging the very same people to come to the US, except they'd be treated like all other immigrants. Why not have a point system where people in certain professions get extra points? In Britain, you get a lot of points from getting a college degree in Britain, so this system would be even more beneficial to foreigners who study in the US than the H1-B system.
    I agree that a complete overhaul is necessary - I'm of the opinion that anyone with a STEM degree should get a green card stapled to their diploma. I just think that a few tweaks on enforcement and grace periods and the like to the H1-B system are far more likely to happen than a comprehensive fix to our skilled (and unskilled) immigration system.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  17. #47
    I don't see why getting a skilled immigration system in place is such a problem. Business groups would probably favor it. Most Democrats shouldn't block an expansion of immigrants, especially since those immigrants will not compete with Democratic constituencies economically. It's consistent with the national emphasis on STEM fields. Knowing English would be a requirement, so it would minimize a nativist challenge. You can even give some extra points for being from a war-zone to get the pro-refugee crown on board.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    As long as the medical outcomes are similar hell yes. Screw the AMA and their protectionist practices.

    Though I wonder what Loki's real concern is.

    1. His primary concern is for the plight of the poor H1-B worker who has no protect from their evil overlords.

    2. His primary concern is protectionist in nature and the 'plight' of the H1-B worker is just an argument, not the real concern he has.

    I'm leaning towards #2 because if you asked the random H1-B worker if they prefer the system as it is now compared to no program in place... guess which one they'll pick?
    So if Obama offered to allow 50 million Mexicans to come to the US tomorrow in order to work in whichever fields they can find jobs in, you'd be ok with that? Or is it only ok as long as your own field doesn't get affected? It's telling that you're not all concerned about employers being in a position to flout constitutional protections or a system where the loyalty of workers belongs not to the US but to their employers.
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  18. #48
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Isn't with higher educated people brain drain also an issue? IIRC for example doctors from certain countries are not allowed to stay in the us because their own country needs more doctors, right?
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  19. #49
    It may hurt third party nations to lose their doctors but I'm not aware of any hard and fast rule that prevents migration from them. The recipient nations generally treat the donor nation (for want of a better word) in a way of "well that's your problem".

    Which to be fair it is. If it wasn't the USA it could be Canada, the UK, Australia or plenty of other nations that the educated doctor who wants to emigrate can go to.
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  20. #50
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post

    So if Obama offered to allow 50 million Mexicans to come to the US tomorrow in order to work in whichever fields they can find jobs in, you'd be ok with that? Or is it only ok as long as your own field doesn't get affected? It's telling that you're not all concerned about employers being in a position to flout constitutional protections or a system where the loyalty of workers belongs not to the US but to their employers.

    Well, to be fair, that's happening already, just not in that large a number.
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  21. #51
    I somehow doubt Lewk is a fan.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #52
    In India and in China, the educational system is vastly different from that of the U.S., so a diploma in India versus a diploma in China versus a diploma in the US or Europe... well, all 4 are quite different in the level of effort and amount of money used to obtain them.

    Personally I would be okay with free immigration, as long as we get rid of protectionism in every field and profession (including insulated government workers...), and the other country does the same, and institutes the same human rights. Otherwise, it's not a fair game.

  23. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    ...Personally I would be okay with free immigration, as long as we get rid of protectionism in every field and profession (including insulated government workers...), and the other country does the same, and institutes the same human rights. Otherwise, it's not a fair game.
    Stumbling block? Not to mention undefined.
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  24. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I don't see why getting a skilled immigration system in place is such a problem. Business groups would probably favor it. Most Democrats shouldn't block an expansion of immigrants, especially since those immigrants will not compete with Democratic constituencies economically. It's consistent with the national emphasis on STEM fields. Knowing English would be a requirement, so it would minimize a nativist challenge. You can even give some extra points for being from a war-zone to get the pro-refugee crown on board.
    I have my doubts of Congress being able to pass any meaningful reform of any important policy, even if interests broadly line up in favor of said reforms. First, you get people trying to couple what should be a cut and dried issue - skilled immigration - to all sorts of other issues. Democrats would likely want it tied to comprehensive immigration reform. Republicans would probably try to shoehorn in something about border security. Both would probably try some protectionism or harp on about protecting American jobs.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  25. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Stumbling block? Not to mention undefined.
    It is. Hence, we need to replace of H1-Bs with something else. Or at least, get rid of the loopholes/"exemptions".

  26. #56
    Another article about it.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/30/us...bs-abroad.html

    Sorry New York Times, this is too important to be paywalled:

    Quote Originally Posted by Temporary Visas, Meant to Import Talent, Help Ship Jobs Abroad, by Julia Preston, Sept. 29, 2015
    WAYNE, N.J. — When Congress designed temporary work visa programs, the idea was to bring in foreigners with specialized, hard-to-find skills who would help American companies grow, creating jobs to expand the economy. Now, though, some companies are bringing in workers on those visas to help move jobs out of the country.

    For four weeks this spring, a young woman from India on a temporary visa sat elbow to elbow with an American accountant in a snug cubicle at the headquarters of Toys “R” Us here. The Indian woman, an employee of a giant outsourcing company in India hired by Toys “R” Us, studied and recorded the accountant’s every keystroke, taking screen shots of her computer and detailed notes on how she issued payments for toys sold in the company’s megastores.

    “She just pulled up a chair in front of my computer,” said the accountant, 49, who had worked for the company for than 15 years. “She shadowed me everywhere, even to the ladies’ room.”

    By late June, eight workers from the outsourcing company, Tata Consultancy Services, or TCS, had produced intricate manuals for the jobs of 67 people, mainly in accounting. They then returned to India to train TCS workers to take over and perform those jobs there. The Toys “R” Us employees in New Jersey, many of whom had been at the company more than a decade, were laid off.

    A temporary visa program known as H-1B allows American employers to hire foreign professionals with college degrees and “highly specialized knowledge,” mainly in science and technology, to meet their needs for particular skills. Employers, according to the federal guidelines, must sign a declaration that the foreign workers “will not adversely affect the working conditions” of Americans or lower their wages.

    In recent years, however, global outsourcing and consulting firms have obtained thousands of temporary visas to bring in foreign workers who have taken over jobs that had been held by American workers. The Labor Department has opened an investigation of possible visa violations by contractors at the Walt Disney Company and at Southern California Edison, where immigrants replaced Americans in jobs they were doing in this country. Four former workers at Disney have filed discrimination complaints against the company. The companies say they have complied with all applicable laws.

    But the Toys “R” Us layoffs — and others underway now at the New York Life Insurance Company and other businesses — go further. They are examples of how global outsourcing companies are using temporary visas to bring in foreign workers who do not appear to have exceptional skills — according to interviews with a dozen current or former employees of Toys “R” Us and New York Life — to help ship out jobs, mainly to India.

    These former employees described their experience training foreigners to do their work so it could be moved to India. They would speak only on the condition that their names not be published, saying they feared losing severance payments or hurting their chances of finding new jobs.

    In most cases where jobs have been moved overseas, the positions have been in technology, with employers arguing there are shortages of Americans with the most advanced skills. But in recent years, many jobs that American workers lost have been in accounting and back-office administration — although there is no shortage of Americans qualified do that kind of work.

    The core purpose of the temporary work visas is to help American companies compete in the global economy. “If employers are able to hire the key people, they can keep jobs in the U.S. and create new jobs here,” said Lynn Shotwell, executive director of the Council for Global Immigration, which lobbies Congress for more visas for highly skilled foreign workers.

    Outsourcing firms, and the companies hiring them, say they are careful not to violate any laws. But some experts argue the intent of the visas is being thwarted.

    “At the very least, those are violations of the spirit of the law,” said Christine Brigagliano, a lawyer in San Francisco with extensive experience advising American companies on obtaining visas. “Those contractors are signing on the bottom line, saying we will not undercut the wages and working conditions of Americans. But, in fact, they are.”

    The companies see it differently.

    Kathleen Waugh, a spokeswoman for Toys “R” Us, said the staff reduction there was part of “designing a streamlined, more efficient global organization to make it fit for growth.” She said the contractors were required to comply with “any and all immigration laws.” The outsourcing, she noted, “resulted in significant cost savings.”

    William Werfelman, a vice president and spokesman at New York Life, said the outsourcing was part of a transformation of its technology systems that would soon result in more jobs in the United States. “Our decisions are centered on keeping the company competitive, keeping it in the United States, keeping it growing,” he said.

    The federal government does not track how often American workers are displaced by workers with temporary visas, but this year, employees at a variety of companies report losing jobs to foreign workers. For example, at Cengage Learning, an educational publisher, about 30 accountants in Ohio and Kentucky were laid off on Sept. 11, after they spent five months training Indian workers from Cognizant, another outsourcing giant. The temporary workers and the jobs went back to India.

    A Cengage spokeswoman, Susan M. Aspey, said the company needed to install higher-grade accounting systems. “To do this quickly and efficiently,” she said, Cengage sought support from Cognizant. Employees who were laid off were given “fair severance packages commensurate with their years of service,” she said.

    Temporary H-1B visas are limited to 85,000 each year. In the last five years, federal records show, most of the companies that received the largest share of H-1B visas have been global outsourcing firms, including TCS; Infosys, another large Indian company; Cognizant, which is based in the United States; and Accenture, a consulting operation incorporated in Ireland.

    Those companies also use another temporary visa, the L-1B, which has no annual cap and allows businesses to internally transfer their employees who have “advanced knowledge” from branches in other countries to offices in the United States. A spokesman for TCS, Benjamin Trounson, said it maintained “rigorous internal controls to ensure we are fully compliant with all regulatory requirements.”

    At the Toys “R” Us headquarters on a leafy campus by a reservoir here in New Jersey, someone dressed as Geoffrey the Giraffe, the retailer’s mascot, often wanders around greeting employees to bolster company spirit. But the mood was hardly playful on the morning of March 3, when a company vice president summoned nearly 70 employees to a conference room and told them their positions would be transferred by the end of June to workers from TCS

    “We were asked to cooperate and show them respect and train them to do our individual job functions,” said another former accountant, 36, who had worked for the toy seller for almost 12 years. But, she recalled, “If you didn’t cooperate, you would be asked to leave.”

    A few days later, TCS workers arrived to begin the training called “knowledge transfer.” Most had flown in days before from India and were staying at a La Quinta Inn nearby.

    The 36-year-old accountant said the young Indian assigned to shadow her appeared to have no extraordinary knowledge of accounting. His expertise was in observing and mapping what she did.

    “He was watching me like a hawk,” she said, remembering long hours at close quarters at her desk under the fluorescent lights of the accounting floor. “It took him a while to learn what I did.”

    She had a hard time maintaining her composure. “I felt like, ‘Why am I sitting here showing this man how to do my job when they are taking it away from me and sending it to India?’”

    Ms. Waugh, the spokeswoman, noted that Toys “R” Us employed about 33,000 people in the United States. She said the company offered workers “a severance package, including benefits and career transition services.”

    The layoffs at New York Life were set in motion in 2014 when the company announced a $1 billion plan for an ambitious upgrade of its financial and data technology systems.

    Since New York Life is not a technology company, said Mr. Werfelman, the spokesman, it turned to outside contractors for the upgrade. The company plans to cut about 300 positions, including up to one-fifth of its 1,400 technology workers, as well as some financial accountants. With 9,000 staff employees and 12,000 agents nationwide, New York Life is the largest mutual life insurer in the United States.

    “We know there will be pain along the way,” Mr. Werfelman said. But he said that with new innovative technology, the company could rapidly expand despite the job cuts. He said it planned to hire 1,000 employees and 3,500 agents this year alone.

    Accountants at New York Life were among the first scheduled for layoffs that started in May, under a contract with Accenture. The company’s accountants found out only by accident — when Accenture managers in India mistakenly sent out a group email with a full outsourcing plan — that the Indian workers they had been training for several weeks would be taking their jobs back to India.

    One accountant said a worker from India made an exact digital “recording” during the day as he performed his job. At the close of business, the recording was transmitted to India, where workers practiced mimicking his tasks.

    “It’s all just repeating exactly what we have been doing,” he said.

    As a condition of his severance, he was asked to stay on for nine months to complete the training. The accountant, who at 26 was confident he would find a job elsewhere, preferred to resign.

    An Accenture spokesman, James E. McAvoy, said it was assisting New York Life to build new global, 24-hour systems. He said H-1B workers were a small part of the Accenture employees involved; most were United States citizens or residents.

    In July, about 100 New York Life technology workers were informed their jobs would be taken over by TCS, to be moved to India. At the insurer’s verdant campus in Sleepy Hollow, N.Y., and at offices in New York City, New Jersey and Georgia, tech employees began receiving individual layoff notices last week.

    “After 30 years, it is very, very disappointing being told you are going to lose your job to a foreign country,” said one technology team member who is 49, and started with New York Life when he was 18.

    Many tech workers facing layoffs are older, with years at the insurer. They were galled by executives’ statements that they were less qualified to learn the new systems than the foreign workers replacing them. “There are a lot of new technologies coming in all the time,” said an applications engineer in New York, who is 58 with 18 years at the company. “There is no reason at all we can’t do training for that.”

    Some workers were not as dismayed, saying the company was offering generous severance packages.

    But a hard irony for many of the New York Life employees losing jobs to immigrants is that they are immigrants themselves. They came to the United States a generation ago from the Philippines, Eastern European countries, and even India and raised families in this country. They followed the immigration rules — some coming as refugees, others with work visas and computer degrees from their home countries. Most became American citizens.

    One technology manager, an immigrant from Europe, recalled that when he was hired at the insurer. “There was an open position that had to be filled,” he said. “Nobody lost their job because I got my job.”

  27. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    It is. Hence, we need to replace of H1-Bs with something else. Or at least, get rid of the loopholes/"exemptions".
    Has any progress been made in this respect?
    As far as I know things are more or less the same.
    ________________________________________
    Alexandra from <snipped link>
    Last edited by RandBlade; 03-02-2019 at 08:14 PM.

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