H1-B: loophole?

[agamemnus]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/infosy...023940692.html

WASHINGTON(Reuters) - The U.S. Labor Department has cleared Infosys Ltd of any wrongdoing and closed its investigation after American technology workers at Southern California Edison complained their jobs were wrongfully outsourced to foreigners working on H-1B visas, Infosys has confirmed.

"Infosys fully cooperated with the (Department of Labor) in this activity," the company told Reuters in a statement, noting the company was confident from the start that it had complied with U.S. immigration laws.

The Labor Department is still investigating similar complaints by U.S. workers into Tata Consultancy Services Ltd., a second IT firm hired by Southern California Edison, and HCL Technologies, an IT firm that Disney hired last year as part of a restructuring of its Orlando-based IT division, a department spokesman said.

H-1B visas are often used by the technology sector to bring highly skilled foreign guest workers to the U.S. Critics say the laws governing the visas are lax, and make it too easy to replace U.S. workers with cheaper, foreign labor.

Separately, the Justice Department is looking at whether HCL, Tata, Infosys, Disney and Southern California Edison discriminated against U.S. workers on the basis of citizenship, according to a person familiar with the matter.

The review, which may not become a formal investigation, was sparked after the Labor Department referred complaints it had received from workers.

Infosys said it had not received "any indication" of a review by the Justice Department.

The scrutiny by U.S. officials comes after the New York Times and other publications reported that laid-off American IT workers at Disney and Southern California Edison were being forced to train their H-1B replacements in order to receive severance.

Tata said the company is cooperating with the Labor Department's ongoing probe and is "fully compliant" with U.S. immigration laws. Southern California Edison said its contracts with Infosys and Tata require both firms to follow all "applicable laws."

Disney declined to comment on the U.S. government reviews. A spokesman said the company's IT restructuring has led to a net increase of about 70 new in-house jobs. HCL declined to comment.

The lay-offs have prompted an outcry from some U.S. senators, several of whom also called for probes into abuses.

Companies such as Infosys that have a workforce composed of 15 percent or more H-1B workers are required to try recruiting U.S. workers first and attest they are not displacing Americans.

But they are exempt from these requirements if they pay H-1 B workers more than $60,000 or hire those with a graduate degree.

Experts who have studied federal H-1B pay data say that in the vast majority of cases H-1B workers are paid more than $60,000, complicating enforcement of discrimination claims by the Justice Department or wrongful displacement at the Labor Department.

Further, the Labor Department cannot launch an investigation into alleged H-1B visa abuses unless it receives a complaint from a worker or credible third party.

"Qualified American workers are going to keep getting replaced by less expensive foreign workers," said Iowa Republican Senator Charles Grassley, one of several lawmakers planning to introduce a bill this year to bolster the Labor Department's powers.

"Current law hamstrings the Labor Department so bad actors go unchecked."

"But they are exempt from these requirements if they pay H-1 B workers more than $60,000 or hire those with a graduate degree."

I think it's a pretty big loophole. Especially the graduate degree thing.

[GGT]

Yeah, it's a gaping loophole in immigration policy. Most "illegal workers" are violating their work visas. What do you propose instead?

[agamemnus]

The loophole makes it legal.

I would propose they remove such loopholes.

[Being]

From another thread,

Nations that are not Nations. https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positio...gration-reform
Amazing.

From the link above.

Mark Zuckerberg’s personal Senator, Marco Rubio, has a bill to triple H-1Bs that would decimate women and minorities.

[agamemnus]

So women and minorities would be killed at a rate of 10%?

[RandBlade]

An exemption is not a loophole. A loophole is an unintended consequence, this seems to be written as a deliberate exemption. Quite rightly too.

If an American is charging too much and could be replaced with a cheaper alternative then why would you not want that cheaper (but still high value) alternative to come into the US and pay US taxes and contribute to the US economy etc? Perhaps if these American workers are so much more expensive than their replacements then they should accept a pay cut rather than be let go? That's an option too, especially since under US law workers can be let go so easily.

[Loki]

That's a rather silly position. There are many countries in Eastern Europe where you'd be able to attract high level technology talent for $20-30k a year. Using your logic, no industry should pay decent wages as long as there's someone out there in the world willing to work for less.

[RandBlade]

That's the nature of outsourcing, it is basic supply and demand. What's your point?

Alternatively put in European-style restrictions to prevent people from being let go from their jobs, but in the long-run we know that to be counter-productive so it doesn't work.

[Loki]

We're not talking about outsourcing. That has all kinds of additional costs. What you're saying is that if an employer thinks their workers want too much money, they can just go somewhere in Africa or Asia and hire a worker for cheaper. Do you realize the effect this would have on wages for the foreseeable future?

[RandBlade]

The opening line of the OP says the jobs were outsourced.

[Loki]

It's the wrong term. They weren't outsourced. Their jobs were taken by foreigners who were given a visa to work in the US. Outsourced means the jobs leave the current company or location.

[Being]

It's the wrong term. They weren't outsourced. Their jobs were taken by foreigners who were given a visa to work in the US. Outsourced means the jobs leave the current company or location.

I believe the term is correct. The jobs were taken over by employees of a subcontractor. The employees are employed by the subcontractor not the company who contracted with the subcontractor to outsource the work.

[Lewkowski]

This is immigration I don't have a problem with. Skilled workers want to bring in their knowledge and skill to America? By all means - bring them over! They are unlikely to bankrupt the social safety net and will provide additional efficiency to our economy.

[agamemnus]

The premise of the H1-B visa is that it brings in skilled workers for jobs where there is no supply. After an extensive search, if a business can't fill the position, they are allowed to bring in the H1-B worker. The 2 "exemptions" are not loopholes, no... they are more like a truck on fire barreling through a Picasso canvas.

At present (past 15 years?), many corporations abuse H1-B visas to enrich themselves on the backs of indentured servants while simultaneously lobbying for more people to get expensive US college degrees in a science and engineering field. The American Way.

P.S.: how much did that Indian Master's cost? 1/30th the cost of the US Master's... let's just import everyone and level the playing field, or send our students to India to get degrees...

[RandBlade]

Over 60k per annum is indentured servitude?

[Lewkowski]

The premise of the H1-B visa is that it brings in skilled workers for jobs where there is no supply. After an extensive search, if a business can't fill the position, they are allowed to bring in the H1-B worker. The 2 "exemptions" are not loopholes, no... they are more like a truck on fire barreling through a Picasso canvas.

At present (past 15 years?), many corporations abuse H1-B visas to enrich themselves on the backs of indentured servants while simultaneously lobbying for more people to get expensive US college degrees in a science and engineering field. The American Way.

P.S.: how much did that Indian Master's cost? 1/30th the cost of the US Master's... let's just import everyone and level the playing field, or send our students to India to get degrees...

I don't have a problem with H1-B visas but frankly if you are well educated, and have a job lined up, feel free to immigrate legally here. These are the folks we want.

[Loki]

Over 60k per annum is indentured servitude?

When the normal salary for the same job is double that?

[Lewkowski]

When the normal salary for the same job is double that?

I don't see how that is relevant if the salary is better than the median income in the country.

[Loki]

I don't see how that is relevant if the salary is better than the median income in the country.

You're basically telling Americans to not bother trying to get well-paying jobs because there's always some foreigner willing to take those same jobs at half the salary. A great message that sends.

[RandBlade]

When the normal salary for the same job is double that?

So indentured servitude is now defined as having a high but not as high salary?

[Loki]

The indentured servitude is that the workers are tied to that job, and if they dare say or do anything that makes the boss less than happy (i.e. asking for a raise), they will not only lose that job, but lose any prospect of getting any job that pays anywhere near this one.

[Lewkowski]

You're basically telling Americans to not bother trying to get well-paying jobs because there's always some foreigner willing to take those same jobs at half the salary. A great message that sends.

Completely untrue. There are a lot of factors. Language barrier, cost of moving (uprooting yourself from family/friends), depending on the nature of the job may require customer interfacing, ect. Are you opposed to immigration of highly skilled individuals to America? Just close down legal migration all together?

[Being]

The indentured servitude is that the workers are tied to that job, and if they dare say or do anything that makes the boss less than happy (i.e. asking for a raise), they will not only lose that job, but lose any prospect of getting any job that pays anywhere near this one.

Alright, who snatched Loki's body? He completely argued the exact opposite with me in an old thread.

[Loki]

Completely untrue. There are a lot of factors. Language barrier, cost of moving (uprooting yourself from family/friends), depending on the nature of the job may require customer interfacing, ect. Are you opposed to immigration of highly skilled individuals to America? Just close down legal migration all together?

India has over a billion people. The educated classes all speak English. Average salary in India is a few thousand a year.

We're not talking about immigration here. We're talking about temporary visas that take advantage of poor salaries in large parts of the world. If these people were actually given market salaries and given the choice of changing employers if their current one mistreats them, employers wouldn't be so desperate to continuously get new workers.

[Lewkowski]

India has over a billion people. The educated classes all speak English. Average salary in India is a few thousand a year.

We're not talking about immigration here. We're talking about temporary visas that take advantage of poor salaries in large parts of the world. If these people were actually given market salaries and given the choice of changing employers if their current one mistreats them, employers wouldn't be so desperate to continuously get new workers.

And having them here on visas means they are spending some of that money in our economy. The alternative option is just to outsource the labor completely and hire a company in India to do the work... in India. Where little of that salary will be spent on the American economy. Or of course some zany big government isolation policies - which I don't think you are in favor of.

[Loki]

And having them here on visas means they are spending some of that money in our economy. The alternative option is just to outsource the labor completely and hire a company in India to do the work... in India. Where little of that salary will be spent on the American economy. Or of course some zany big government isolation policies - which I don't think you are in favor of.

They've actually saving up a huge portion of that money and sending it back home (see remittances). Not that I think this should matter. We should have one class of people in the US. We don't need a second class for whom the employer's goodwill takes precedence over constitutional and human rights. If we have long-term shortages in certain sectors of the economy, we should encourage people with those skills to immigrate to the US, not allow ridiculous shortcuts that allow a halving of salaries and a continuous supply of workers who have no real connection to the US.

And guest worker visas aren't a type of zany big government policy?

[Lewkowski]

Not really - in fact it seems minimal all that it does is allow certain types of travel/employment for individuals. Government currently restricts it so creating a rule where it is allowable is merely lessening big government in a specific case.

Another way to think about it this Loki. The work will be done, either over here or an India. So some possibilities exist.

1. The work is done by Americans. This only happens if wages rise in India, fall in America, or we institute very protectionist economy stifling regulations.
2. The work is done here by Indians in America. Yes money may go back to India in terms of remittances but they still have eat and be housed. They also will likely use some of their money for entertainment and transportation.
3. The work is done by Indians living in India. Vast majority of the salary will be put back into the Indian economy (some would still be spent on the American economy since we do export some things over there).

Of those three options which do you find preferable? Obviously there is middle ground and not all jobs can be outsourced (security clearance, PR reasons, ect) but as long as the quality of work is similar to Americans at a fraction of the cost, these are your options.

[Loki]

The work won't be done in India because there are numerous challenges that arise from outsourcing jobs. A large portion of the jobs that were outsourced a decade ago were moved back to the US because of those unforeseen challenges. Most of those problems don't exist if you simply get people from third world countries to come to the US to do those jobs at half the cost and then replace them with a new wave of third world workers when they start demanding higher pay. So no, the alternative isn't outsourcing, but keeping Americans in those same jobs.

I'm curious, would you support expanding this program to every industry then? If there are accountants, actuaries, or even bartenders and plumbers from the third world who would be willing to come here for 2 years to do those jobs at half the American cost, just to be promptly replaced by a new wave of workers from those same countries, would you be ok with that?

[RandBlade]

How long on a H1-B visa does it take to get a green card?

[Loki]

How long can it take or how long does it actually take? You're entirely at the mercy of your employer. If they want to sponsor you, you can get a green card within a few years. If they don't, you're screwed. It's just another way that employers have godlike powers over their H1-B workers. And keep in mind that employers know that once they sponsor you, you can leave to get another job and get paid more for doing the same thing you're doing now. There's a high disincentive in play.