Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 63

Thread: Terrorism Strikes in Moscow

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Anytime soon? No. But if these kind of attacks become the norm (and not just in the northern Caucasus, which apparently had several hundred terrorist attacks in 2009), then Putin's approval ratings will plummet, and that will provide some other official with the leverage to topple him.
    As long as they butcher people in large amounts far away, plus have high-profile arrests combined with long jail terms/'accidental' deaths, I doubt the public will like him any less.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    They've always shown their inability to protect the public, despite them using security as the excuse to end democracy.
    This sounds like US Republicans or neo-conservatives in the GOP. Only they used security as the excuse to spread democracy.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    As long as they butcher people in large amounts far away, plus have high-profile arrests combined with long jail terms/'accidental' deaths, I doubt the public will like him any less.
    The public doesn't care whether people in the Caucasus are being butchered. It does care if people in Moscow are getting butchered. If Putin can't consistently prevent the latter, his raison d'etre for being ruler will disappear.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    This sounds like US Republicans or neo-conservatives in the GOP. Only they used security as the excuse to spread democracy.
    Thank you for that observation, Alpha.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The public doesn't care whether people in the Caucasus are being butchered. It does care if people in Moscow are getting butchered. If Putin can't consistently prevent the latter, his raison d'etre for being ruler will disappear.
    Much of the response of the public was that they didn't really care (in their personal lives) that people in Moscow got butchered, but they do expect a brutal and swift response from their glorious leader.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Much of the response of the public was that they didn't really care (in their personal lives) that people in Moscow got butchered, but they do expect a brutal and swift response from their glorious leader.
    That kind of a rally around the flag effect dissipates pretty quickly. It rarely lasts more than a few months. Security is a long-term concern, however. A few isolated attacks won't do much to hurt Putin's stature, but if this becomes the norm, then people will start wondering how Putin helps them.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    That kind of a rally around the flag effect dissipates pretty quickly. It rarely lasts more than a few months. Security is a long-term concern, however. A few isolated attacks won't do much to hurt Putin's stature, but if this becomes the norm, then people will start wondering how Putin helps them.
    We'll talk when this does become the norm. Right now, this only helped Putin's gub'ment, assuming they'll execute some people for this. Which they will, natch.

    And even if this became more common, I very much doubt the Russian people would do anything but rally behind the great leader.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    We'll talk when this does become the norm. Right now, this only helped Putin's gub'ment, assuming they'll execute some people for this. Which they will, natch.

    And even if this became more common, I very much doubt the Russian people would do anything but rally behind the great leader.
    Then why was Yeltsin so unpopular? Russia might not be a democracy, but legitimacy matters. Ultimately, Putin can stay in power only as long as he's popular with a large portion of the population. The second that stops being true, what stops some FSB chief from toppling him?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The public doesn't care whether people in the Caucasus are being butchered. It does care if people in Moscow are getting butchered. If Putin can't consistently prevent the latter, his raison d'etre for being ruler will disappear.

    Thank you for that observation, Alpha.


    "The public doesn't care", you say. Right, everyone in the public is stupid or ignorant. Russia, America, Israel, it doesn't matter. Only the Rulers and power brokers matter, everyone else is just a moron?

    You've got a talent for turning logical self-interest into nasty sounding things like Misguided Patriotism, Nationalism, Protectionism. You've got the trifecta of being a Russian descendant of Jewish heritage, living in the US, as a grad student of academia in politics and international relations.

    So, since your head is obviously pointier than ours, do tell us how to proceed with our priorities, Professor.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Then why was Yeltsin so unpopular? Russia might not be a democracy, but legitimacy matters. Ultimately, Putin can stay in power only as long as he's popular with a large portion of the population. The second that stops being true, what stops some FSB chief from toppling him?
    Uncle Boris didn't have the same mass-appeal at any point in his career, I think? Putin's playing off the same leader-charisma myth that oh so many Russian leaders of yore did. And there isn't a real opposition in Russian politics anymore, the milizia clamp down most protests as soon as they start. And so on. It's fine and well to discuss liberal democracies of the West, but it is foolish to assume that all masses of people behave the same under the same constraints.

    Unless the Pubbies love Reagan for the same reasons the Rushkies love Stalin. Are there studies about this?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  10. #40


    That's why Putin is insanely popular. He's strong, he does manly things, he's attractive.

    American politicians just lack that sort of virility.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Uncle Boris didn't have the same mass-appeal at any point in his career, I think? Putin's playing off the same leader-charisma myth that oh so many Russian leaders of yore did. And there isn't a real opposition in Russian politics anymore, the milizia clamp down most protests as soon as they start. And so on. It's fine and well to discuss liberal democracies of the West, but it is foolish to assume that all masses of people behave the same under the same constraints.

    Unless the Pubbies love Reagan for the same reasons the Rushkies love Stalin. Are there studies about this?
    He did before 1993 or so. How do you think he become president? And the point is not that the people will overthrow Putin; that's highly unlikely (as far as I know, the people haven't overthrown a single Russian/Soviet leader). The point is that Putin derives his legitimacy from providing security. Once that legitimacy is gone, he'll likely get challenged by some other member of the ruling regime, who'll promise the elites all the things that Putin couldn't deliver. How do you think coups take place in non-democracies?

    Keep in mind that they like Stalin because he provided the people security. They don't exactly like Beria or Yagoda.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post


    "The public doesn't care", you say. Right, everyone in the public is stupid or ignorant. Russia, America, Israel, it doesn't matter. Only the Rulers and power brokers matter, everyone else is just a moron?
    Go to Russia and ask people what they think of Chechens. Then come back and tell me that they care if Chechens or other Muslim groups in the Caucasus get slaughtered.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    He did before 1993 or so. How do you think he become president? And the point is not that the people will overthrow Putin; that's highly unlikely (as far as I know, the people haven't overthrown a single Russian/Soviet leader). The point is that Putin derives his legitimacy from providing security. Once that legitimacy is gone, he'll likely get challenged by some other member of the ruling regime, who'll promise the elites all the things that Putin couldn't deliver. How do you think coups take place in non-democracies?

    Keep in mind that they like Stalin because he provided the people security. They don't exactly like Beria or Yagoda.
    But uh that's kind of my point. As long as the people believe they're being provided security, they'll fawn all over Putin's gub'ment. The number of corpses in Moscow would have to reach relatively astronomical proportions before they public would seriously consider their gub'ment was failing to do their job. As long as the gub'ment keeps on executing high-profile cases, and eliminating huge swaths of people somewhere far away who're convenient to blame.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    But uh that's kind of my point. As long as the people believe they're being provided security, they'll fawn all over Putin's gub'ment. The number of corpses in Moscow would have to reach relatively astronomical proportions before they public would seriously consider their gub'ment was failing to do their job. As long as the gub'ment keeps on executing high-profile cases, and eliminating huge swaths of people somewhere far away who're convenient to blame.
    But killing random Muslims in the Caucasus doesn't by itself create security. Sure, the people will support a new offensive for the sake of revenge, but their main objective is to be secure in their day-to-day life. I don't really know enough about the capabilities of these terrorist groups to know if they can mount a long-term campaign in the heart of Russia. But if they somehow do manage that, Putin is unlikely to survive. After a point, people stop cheering from seeing the body bags in the Caucasus and start getting angry over the body bags in Moscow.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    but their main objective is to be secure in their day-to-day life.
    Again, this does not seem to reflect the public opinion. It's possible they're lying to the cameras and reporters, I guess?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Again, this does not seem to reflect the public opinion. It's possible they're lying to the cameras and reporters, I guess?
    Rally around the flag. It's why Bush had a 90% approval rating after 9/11.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Rally around the flag. It's why Bush had a 90% approval rating after 9/11.
    Except they do it consistently no matter the external pressures.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  17. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Go to Russia and ask people what they think of Chechens. Then come back and tell me that they care if Chechens or other Muslim groups in the Caucasus get slaughtered.
    No thanks. I'm happy to leave Russians to themselves. The Cold War is over, now they're hoarding or manipulating commodities. Just like China. Religious and land wars will continue, economic wars will prevail. The US doesn't need to be involved in every sphere as the micromanager of the world. We're not a Superpower anymore, just another big country with our own big problems. We should really stop making false promises to everyone.

    You can still be the next Kissinger tho, Loki. You'll just have to change the bar of expectations, and learn to say NO to the right people.

  18. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Except they do it consistently no matter the external pressures.
    Actually, 2/3 of Russians support negotiations with Chechen terrorists (as of a year ago) and an even larger portion supported negotiations after the first failed Chechen War. They might not mind seeing these people dead, but they're also realistic enough to know military measures will not bring about a solution on this problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    No thanks. I'm happy to leave Russians to themselves. The Cold War is over, now they're hoarding or manipulating commodities. Just like China. Religious and land wars will continue, economic wars will prevail. The US doesn't need to be involved in every sphere as the micromanager of the world. We're not a Superpower anymore, just another big country with our own big problems. We should really stop making false promises to everyone.
    How is any of this relevant to either what I asked you or this thread in general?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  19. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Actually, 2/3 of Russians support negotiations with Chechen terrorists (as of a year ago) and an even larger portion supported negotiations after the first failed Chechen War. They might not mind seeing these people dead, but they're also realistic enough to know military measures will not bring about a solution on this problem.
    I still think they'll do pretty much as they are told because they lap that shit up (and what nation doesn't, except the pithy US, lol), but I defer to your superior ageless cynicism and will call it a night
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  20. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    How is any of this relevant to either what I asked you or this thread in general?


    You asked me to go to Russia and ask what they think of Chechnya. Rhetorically speaking, of course. Then I posed a rhetorical question to you: How far are you willing to expand US military, diplomatic or economic "might", before our own rubber band breaks?

  21. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    I still think they'll do pretty much as they are told because they lap that shit up (and what nation doesn't, except the pithy US, lol), but I defer to your superior ageless cynicism and will call it a night
    I was going to cite a survey from 2007 showing that most Russians don't buy the government propaganda regarding Chechnya, but the stupid link won't work. Just google "survey Russians Chechen". It's the one that's called "Levada's last poll".

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    You asked me to go to Russia and ask what they think of Chechnya. Rhetorically speaking, of course. Then I posed a rhetorical question to you: How far are you willing to expand US military, diplomatic or economic "might", before our own rubber band breaks?
    Again, what's the relevance of any of this? Did I at any point even imply that any of this is America's problem?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I was going to cite a survey from 2007 showing that most Russians don't buy the government propaganda regarding Chechnya, but the stupid link won't work. Just google "survey Russians Chechen". It's the one that's called "Levada's last poll".
    That's what propaganda does, son, it changes public opinion
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  23. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Again, what's the relevance of any of this? Did I at any point even imply that any of this is America's problem?
    I was just conversing with you, Loki. You get all hot and bothered under your collar when international issues pop up, because that's your forte. You have your own opinions of what should be done, or how the US should react, or how it influences the US. When it comes to Russia or Israel in particular, you don't just stand on the sidelines and watch or make comment. You get really involved, perhaps emotionally? Moreso than any other area like south of the equator or within our own United States.

  24. #54
    Putin is insanely popular in Russia. For the next 20 years unless something really strange happens he has Russia in the palm of his hand.

  25. #55
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Bottom of a bottle, on top of a woman
    Posts
    3,423
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Anytime soon? No. But if these kind of attacks become the norm (and not just in the northern Caucasus, which apparently had several hundred terrorist attacks in 2009), then Putin's approval ratings will plummet, and that will provide some other official with the leverage to topple him.
    In other words, if the terrorists succeed.... meet the new boss, same as the old boss?

    Brilliant!

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    And the point is not that the people will overthrow Putin; that's highly unlikely (as far as I know, the people haven't overthrown a single Russian/Soviet leader).
    And this is exactly why Nessie's right here and you're wrong. The Chechens could nuke Moscow and the only thing that would change is the name of the tyrant running Russia. Public opinion just doesn't matter enough to make a difference in Russia, and in the occasional case where it does, you take control of the media, jail anyone who isn't three feet up your ass, and even threaten to create a "Russian internet" to control dissent anti-Russian influences online.

    And to be perfectly blunt about the whole thing, since they can't win, I hope the Chechens at least manage to take a lot of people out with them. I know that if I had to live with Putin as my Tyrant-in-Chief and Russian military units as the local neighborhood watch, blowing myself up in a large crowd would quick become an appealing alternative.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  26. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    (as far as I know, the people haven't overthrown a single Russian/Soviet leader).
    Wait, what? You're joking right? Or are you intending to use ridiculously strict or distorted definitions of those terms?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  27. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    And to be perfectly blunt about the whole thing, since they can't win, I hope the Chechens at least manage to take a lot of people out with them.
    I hope you mean those trying to take them out by force.

    Otherwise..

    In a pair of e-mails exchanged on August 1, LaRose told Paulin-Ramirez, "when our brother[s] defend our faith [&] their homes, they are terrorist ... fine, then i am a terrorist & proud to be this," according to the indictment. To this, Paulin-Ramirez responded in an e-mail by stating, "if thats how they call it then so be it i am what i am," the indictment says.
    ^^ seems like that's the only evidence they have...

    http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/03/...ef=igoogle_cnn

  28. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    And this is exactly why Nessie's right here and you're wrong. The Chechens could nuke Moscow and the only thing that would change is the name of the tyrant running Russia. Public opinion just doesn't matter enough to make a difference in Russia, and in the occasional case where it does, you take control of the media, jail anyone who isn't three feet up your ass, and even threaten to create a "Russian internet" to control dissent anti-Russian influences online.
    I was just pointing to Putin's prospects of staying in power. I agree that his replacement wouldn't be any better. But I would gain some pleasure from seeing the guy overthrown.

    As for the Chechens, apparently the Russians are exterminating the entire families of anyone accused of being a terrorist (and have been doing this for at least several years), so they're not exactly giving these people incentives to not be as extreme as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Wait, what? You're joking right? Or are you intending to use ridiculously strict or distorted definitions of those terms?
    The only debatable case would be the regime change that put Kerensky in power. Which other ones are you referring to?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #59
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Bottom of a bottle, on top of a woman
    Posts
    3,423
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    I hope you mean those trying to take them out by force.
    Depends on how you define that, I suppose.

    Are Putin's supporters blameless in supporting, demanding, and even cheering on the Russian presence and war crimes tactics in Chechnya? <shrug> Compassion isn't exactly my strongest trait anyway, so it should come as no surprise that I can't muster any up for a bunch of dead Russians who cheer their infallible tyrant onto even greater depths of unwarranted cruelty and brutality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    As for the Chechens, apparently the Russians are exterminating the entire families of anyone accused of being a terrorist (and have been doing this for at least several years), so they're not exactly giving these people incentives to not be as extreme as possible.
    Yeah. Russian politicians and military personnel are in desperate need of a crash course on (or at the very least, a dictionary definition of) "blowback."

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The only debatable case would be the regime change that put Kerensky in power. Which other ones are you referring to?
    I'm neither little, nor fuzzy, but I seem to remember something about popular anti-Tsarist uprisings in Russia during WWI.

    I'm not sure if anything came of those or not, but it does strike as odd that Putin doesn't hold the title of Tsar/Czar that Russian rulers have held since Ivan IV Vasilyevich (Ivan Grozny).

    Maybe the Chinese Communists abolished that particular title when they invaded Tsarist Russia and imposed the USSR on the defeated Tsarist Russians.
    Last edited by CitizenCain; 04-04-2010 at 05:22 AM. Reason: Damn rapid-editting by Loki forcing me to rapid-edit. :p
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  30. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The only debatable case would be the regime change that put Kerensky in power. Which other ones are you referring to?
    I would argue that popular revolts were behind most of the regime changes in Russia during that period, not just Kerensky's in July-September. Popular doesn't just mean "democratic."
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •