Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 98

Thread: Goods and Services and Taxation

  1. #61
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,313
    Well, I think it's fair to add that this article is rubbish from a Dutch point of view. We're not really used to politicians playing games with it and as for companies trying that game, well, I don't really think so.
    In some other countries governments are more prone to play with it, also the UK with its politically charged zero-tariffs.

    Some of the examples are rubbish under all circumstances; a sandwich is a sandwich under all circumstances. Selling it or serving it though are two different things. It really doesn't help either if a claim is being underpinned with the risk of 'faceless bureaucrats' having excessive powers.

    As for the dutch tax system: look here Belastingdienst

    Income under €6,150 a year is not taxed at all.

    up to € 17,579 inclusive
    2.45%

    2 € 17,579 to € 31,589 inclusive
    10.70%

    3 € 31,589 to € 53,860 inclusive
    42.00%

    4 € 53,860 and more
    52.00%

    Then there also is a premium of 31.15% on income up to € 31,122 for those of us who are younger than 65 (this is how we pay for our equivalents of medicaid and social security) for those over 65 years old the premium is 13.25%. What it boils down to is that you pay about 30% of your income in taxes and mandated insurance/pension schemes.

    The thresholds seem very low, but you should keep in mind that this is the tax on taxable income, there are scores of ways to get your taxable income reduced significantly.

    Tax on capital gains : your residence is excluded from this tax, as is about €20,000 per person in other holdings. For the rest it's 1.2% a year on your holdings. Which was a bit steep in the worst years but now with the stock exchange booming is a real cheap deal.
    Congratulations America

  2. #62
    Yes, I was going to say that the Dutch always seem to have systems with minimal games. Maybe it has something to do with a relatively smaller and less geographically disbursed population, I'm not sure.

    But Hazir, please tell me a few of the big ways one can reduce your taxable income. Because those rates are astonishingly high from where I sit.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    6,435
    If I speak for myself, I can deduct all my education expenses, which means I don't have to pay income taxes, at all.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  4. #64
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,313
    Where is the post I made about this this morning? Deductable; interest on mortgage, premiums for pensions, educational expenses (in your line of work). It adds up for a lot of people, bringing the average effective tax-burden down to around 30%
    Congratulations America

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Where is the post I made about this this morning? Deductable; interest on mortgage, premiums for pensions, educational expenses (in your line of work). It adds up for a lot of people, bringing the average effective tax-burden down to around 30%
    30% of your income goes to taxes? What are the percentages for housing, food, transportation, medical care, insurance? And how much can you save?

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    If I speak for myself, I can deduct all my education expenses, which means I don't have to pay income taxes, at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Where is the post I made about this this morning? Deductable; interest on mortgage, premiums for pensions, educational expenses (in your line of work). It adds up for a lot of people, bringing the average effective tax-burden down to around 30%
    Interesting that premiums for pensions is on there. That's kind of an enormous government support for the pensions.

    But that's still a ton of deductions...and doesn't help me feel more comfortable with this at all. Because on top of your 30% "real" tax burden, you pay -- what? -- 19% consumption tax on everything you spend?

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    As for the dutch tax system: look here Belastingdienst

    Income under €6,150 a year is not taxed at all.

    up to € 17,579 inclusive
    2.45%

    2 € 17,579 to € 31,589 inclusive
    10.70%

    3 € 31,589 to € 53,860 inclusive
    42.00%

    4 € 53,860 and more
    52.00%

    Then there also is a premium of 31.15% on income up to € 31,122 for those of us who are younger than 65 (this is how we pay for our equivalents of medicaid and social security) for those over 65 years old the premium is 13.25%. What it boils down to is that you pay about 30% of your income in taxes and mandated insurance/pension schemes.

    The thresholds seem very low, but you should keep in mind that this is the tax on taxable income, there are scores of ways to get your taxable income reduced significantly.

    Tax on capital gains : your residence is excluded from this tax, as is about €20,000 per person in other holdings. For the rest it's 1.2% a year on your holdings. Which was a bit steep in the worst years but now with the stock exchange booming is a real cheap deal.
    That's a hugely progressive tax, if I'm reading things right. So, someone who's middle class (I'm assuming most make taxable income more than 32k Euros) is paying a marginal rate of 42% on top of a 31% payroll tax for the Dutch equivalent of FICA? No, wait, you said the FICA-like tax only counts on the first 31k Euros. So, really, everyone's paying an effective 42% marginal rate starting at 17.5k. So I guess it's not progressive so much as pricey. (For comparison, my combined state and federal marginal rate is something like 25% and we're solidly in the middle class on income levels. This includes payroll taxes for social security and medicare but doesn't touch sales tax, which is something like 5% on some parts of consumption.)

    As for the 'capital gains' taxes - do you mean to say they tax 1.2% of your total holdings or only of your realized earnings? If it's the former I'm sure as hell not moving to the Netherlands.

    I always get sticker shock when I look at taxes across the ocean. I was just working up our estimated income taxes for this upcoming year, and it works out to a real (not marginal) income tax rate of about 8.4% for the feds, 5ish% for social security and medicare (it's a little complicated since my half (well, third) of our income doesn't vest currently, which means lower taxes but no SS benefits), and about 5.9% for the state. If I do my math right, that's just under 20% in total taxes - and I'm in a heavily taxed state.
    Last edited by wiggin; 04-08-2010 at 06:00 AM.

  8. #68
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,313
    The tax is faily progressive, that much is true. However there is no taxation on top of a payroll tax. Effectively income tax is lower for people than their payroll tax because of deductions. VAT for most goods and services is 6% for things like TV's computers etc.

    IIRC most mortgage lending by banks is done in a way that payments towards the home don't exceed 1/3 of ones income. Others I don't know really, what I do know is that Ronald and I could save enough to pay off a €134,000 debt in 6 years (projection since we're still in the last year of that).

    Now, the capital gains tax; that really blows, but on the other hand it also looks a lot worse than it is. First of all, your residence, no matter what it's worth is not considered part of your capital. Other real estate that you own is considered part of your capital, but you can deduct any costs pressing on its upkeep from the the amount you file. Then you get to deduct €20,000. The result of all that is your considered net worth. The nasty part is that it is assumed that you gain 4% on what you own.

    You can't really compare what I pay to what you would pay; it's an entirely different deal for expats who do their homework. It may come as a surprise to you, but The Netherlands is still considered a tax-haven.
    Congratulations America

  9. #69
    I'm still confused about capital gains. Let's ignore the house and the first 20k - if I own 1 million Euros in stocks and bonds, I have to pay 12k in cash to the government every year regardless of whether I have realized any gains? That's a huge disincentive for anyone of modest means to invest...

  10. #70
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,313
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    I'm still confused about capital gains. Let's ignore the house and the first 20k - if I own 1 million Euros in stocks and bonds, I have to pay 12k in cash to the government every year regardless of whether I have realized any gains? That's a huge disincentive for anyone of modest means to invest...
    Yes. The flipside is that actual gains are not taxed as income. The AEX went up 30% over 2009. If your investor had put his money in a simple tracker fund, he'd made a killing last year. Paying 12k on 300k capital gains.

    Maybe I should have added that whatever is tucked away in a pension-arrangement doesn't count for the capital gains tax. Unlike in the US you can't draw on that early either though. Given that for most people their capital is their home and their pension fund, that means that not many people actually pay this tax at all.

    Untill we got this system in 2001 a lot of cash-rich people would move their residence to accross the Belgian border. A lot of that money has been repatriated now that it's a fixed 1.2% rate.

    If a couple owns to the tune of €1m and one of them dies, no estate tax is due by the way. If they owned 10 times that the estate tax is €1.5m
    Last edited by Hazir; 04-10-2010 at 12:59 AM.
    Congratulations America

  11. #71
    And if you're a conservative investor who just likes to hoard cash...your cash stash will dwindle by 1.2% each year.

  12. #72
    That sounds really complicated. No tax on realized capital gains, but taxing dormant asset holdings? Did I get that right? That sounds like a bubble or shadow, to feed speculation and trading or financial services. But maybe I didn't understand it right.

  13. #73
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,313
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    That sounds really complicated. No tax on realized capital gains, but taxing dormant asset holdings? Did I get that right? That sounds like a bubble or shadow, to feed speculation and trading or financial services. But maybe I didn't understand it right.
    It doesn't feed anything because there is no relation between taxes paid and the way markets develop. It's not complicated either.
    Congratulations America

  14. #74
    Wouldn't that encourage risk-taking in the stock market, since you're basically losing money if you're not making enough of a profit?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Wouldn't that encourage risk-taking in the stock market, since you're basically losing money if you're not making enough of a profit?
    It's an incentive to not sit on the money. It's also a more stable and enforcable tax base than one relying on reported realized gains.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Wouldn't that encourage risk-taking in the stock market, since you're basically losing money if you're not making enough of a profit?
    There's some of that already with inflation, but I do imagine it makes it worse, and it's easier to see than inflation.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    There's some of that already with inflation, but I do imagine it makes it worse, and it's easier to see than inflation.
    I was going to write that, but I didn't want to make my argument more complicated. But you're right, you already have an incentive to be somewhat risky, and this adds to that incentive.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #78
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,313
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I was going to write that, but I didn't want to make my argument more complicated. But you're right, you already have an incentive to be somewhat risky, and this adds to that incentive.
    Hard to tell I think, you guys might be right but you could say that of anything that gives better returns than putting your money under your mattress. People could also choose to buy a nicer residence and be done with this tax.
    Congratulations America

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Hard to tell I think, you guys might be right but you could say that of anything that gives better returns than putting your money under your mattress. People could also choose to buy a nicer residence and be done with this tax.
    Buying with mortgage and using realtor means financial services. Pension plans are excluded, capital gains tax is low (including profit selling/flipping houses?), good for financial services. I can understand they want to keep home owners from crossing the border, but the scheme does sound complicated.

    The nasty part is that it is assumed that you gain 4% on what you own.
    Bank deposits are taxed as holdings or net worth, when the interest earned is about the same as the tax? Sounds goofy.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Hard to tell I think, you guys might be right but you could say that of anything that gives better returns than putting your money under your mattress. People could also choose to buy a nicer residence and be done with this tax.
    Bingo. Sounds like a nice way to gut people's savings or make them plow it into something like real estate.

    My personal goal is to always maintain one year of cash on hand, then save even more in a savings account, stocks and index fund. This kind of tax would certainly obliterate that goal.

  21. #81
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,313
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Bingo. Sounds like a nice way to gut people's savings or make them plow it into something like real estate.

    My personal goal is to always maintain one year of cash on hand, then save even more in a savings account, stocks and index fund. This kind of tax would certainly obliterate that goal.
    I don't know exactly what your 'one year of cash' constitutes. But it would have to be more than €20,000 before you pay any taxes at all. Having a gentle nudge of capital towards real estate isn't unreasonable either in a tax-system that rewards lending money towards buying a home and very low real estate taxes on a local level. I pay shy of €600 a year for an apartment in central Amsterdam.

    Gigi, 'flipping houses' simply is taxed through the same system. Actual profits are not taxed.
    Congratulations America

  22. #82
    It is more than that, and that's just covering housing costs. Not to get too personal, but given your housing costs could you really pay for everything for a full year with zero income on less than 20k?

  23. #83
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,313
    I could. It would take some austerity measures, but I could. But since I am not single the amount would be €40,000. In which case I would say, relatively comfortably. But, for me, or anybody in this country for a year without any income is only an option we'd have to consider if the heavens come down and even cash money won't count for much any longer.

    In a realistic worst case scenario, we would have only have to make minor lifestyle adjustments. No major ones like selling our houses.
    Congratulations America

  24. #84
    I guess my issue with this, Hazir, is not the exact setup (though it does mean that the government can get about 1.2% of every well-to-do person's assets every year, which seems a bit crazy), but that it requires you to have cash on hand to pay for unrealized asset value. Thus, if I've been investing into a small business or am a 'buy and hold' investor in the stock market (which is a far smarter strategy than frequent trades), all of my taxed assets aren't liquid, so I have to come up with cash somewhere else to pay for everything. It's not a problem for the truly rich, but for the merely well-off, it could be a major hindrance and a disincentive to invest. I think this is the real reason why only realized gains are taxed in the US - then you're just taking a portion of the liquidated assets, not unrealized gains. Also, you get into some difficult questions of valuation when you deal with unrealized asset value. (BTW, wifey and I need more than 20k Euros just in emergency cash, let alone saving up for things like a house downpayment or investing for retirement above and beyond currently available tax shelters...)

    On a more philosophical level, I view money and assets that I have already paid taxes on as mine. Why should I have to pay extra taxes on assets that I've previously paid taxes for? Just because I save more than the next person doesn't entitle the government to my money - quite the contrary, the government should encourage frugality and living within one's means.

  25. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    ... the government should encourage frugality and living within one's means.
    When a government depends on revenue from realized gains it would be counter-productive to promote frugality. It's already an unstable source of revenue.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  26. #86
    Lesson: government shouldn't depend on that kind of revenue and just get spending under control.

    THE OUTLOOK APRIL 12, 2010
    For Top Earners, Tax Bite Is Likely to Be Worst

    By JOHN D. MCKINNON

    Most Americans believe taxes are heading higher. The big questions are by how much, when, and on whom?

    Unless Washington summons the nerve to drastically cut spending, taxes are likely to rise a lot, soon and probably hit many ordinary Americans, but especially the well-to-do.

    A January study by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center provides the worst-case scenario. It found that to reduce the federal budget deficit to a sustainable 3% of gross domestic product, the government would have to find an average of about half a trillion dollars each year in new revenue (or spending cuts). That's roughly how much the federal government spends now on the giant Medicare program.

    To cover that amount through tax increases on the top two brackets—roughly, families with more than $209,000 in taxable income—top rates would have to go from the current 33% and 35% to 72.4% and 76.8%, the study found.


    Citing those findings, Sen. Orrin Hatch (R., Utah) says such steep rate increases can't provide the answer.

    "They would cripple economic growth," says Mr. Hatch, who's in line to become the top Republican on the Senate Finance Committee next year. Mr. Hatch, like other Republican lawmakers, insists spending reductions are the only way to address deficits.

    But if Congress and the White House ultimately decide to go with a mix of spending cuts and tax increases—as seems more likely for now—lawmakers probably would seek to spread the tax pain around.

    One idea gaining currency is broadening the tax base, by limiting individuals' deductions and closing what the Obama administration terms corporate tax loopholes.

    Another plan getting attention is adding new taxes on consumption, such as a value-added tax, widely used in other countries. The VAT could be paired with an overhaul of the U.S. corporate tax, to focus it only on income generated inside the U.S., and make it more like other countries' tax systems.

    Each idea faces political challenges. The real-estate industry, for example, would fiercely resist limiting the huge mortgage-interest deduction—an idea that the Obama administration already has floated with its proposal to limit the value of top earners' itemized deductions to 28%, from 33% and 35%.

    Corporations, meanwhile, worry that taking away their tax breaks will make them less competitive with overseas rivals, and encourage more cross-border takeovers of American companies. Big retailers vehemently oppose a broad consumption tax, because it would limit spending.

    Still, the possible elements of an eventual budget deal are on the table. At this point, rate increases, especially on higher-income earners, appear likely, and further limits on some types of deductions are very possible, as evidenced by the health-care legislation's modest curbs on tax breaks for employer-sponsored health plans.

    And even some conservative economists concede that consumption taxes, such as on energy, are among the least harmful sorts of taxes under consideration.

    So when will taxes go up? It's already started. The just-passed health-care bill contained a couple of increases in Medicare payroll taxes for higher-income earners. Deloitte experts say those provisions would cost about $2,250 for a family with income of $500,000.

    Congress might raise taxes on the well-heeled still further this year. President Barack Obama has proposed allowing the Bush-era tax cuts to expire for families making more than $250,000, a change that would return their top rates to 39.6% and 36%, lift their capital-gains rate and trim some deductions.

    Given the still-precarious economy, the coming election and the looming need for a broader look at spending and taxes, it's possible Congress will decide to simply extend some or all the Bush tax cuts for a year or two. And prospects are growing that Congress will punt on the tough tax decisions until after November.

    But sometime soon after the election, lawmakers will try for a broad bipartisan deal on taxes and spending, perhaps aided by a recently formed fiscal commission.

    At least some Democrats remain optimistic, despite Republicans' resistance to new taxes and their own members' reluctance to cut entitlements.

    When Rep. Richard Neal (D., Mass.) joined the House in 1989, deficits were so deep that "many said we could not fix that issue, that it was a hopeless cause," he says. "But [President George H.W.] Bush once and Clinton twice, with spending and revenues, addressed the issue four-square."

    Mr. Neal, the chairman of a key House Ways and Means subcommittee, held a hearing recently that explored many of the tax options, such as base-broadening and consumption taxes.

    Mr. Obama might want to postpone the day of budget reckoning until after the 2012 election. Some economists worry that the U.S. won't have that much time, however, and that the financial markets suddenly might lose confidence in U.S. ability to repay its debt. That would make the solutions much more onerous, Syracuse University professor Len Burman warned at the hearing.

    As for who will wind up paying higher taxes, it's a safe bet that the well-to-do will bear the lion's share, particularly if Mr. Obama has his way.

    The president "is not proposing to cut the deficit at the expense of middle-class families," says White House spokeswoman Amy Brundage.

    Republicans complain that already, almost half of American households pay no income tax, a trend that Rep. Pat Tiberi (R., Ohio) worries will continue. Still, even some Democrats appear to be questioning Mr. Obama's pledge to protect all families making less than $250,000.

    The "notion that somehow this is going to be accomplished merely by taxing 1% of the population or 2% of the population or 5% of the population is...a fantasy," Rep. Earl Blumenauer (D., Ore.), said at the recent hearing.


    Like a number of Democrats, Mr. Blumenauer said he's "intrigued" with the consumption-tax idea. Tax experts say consumption taxes are regressive, because lower-income people tend to spend more of their income. But a consumption tax could be designed with offsetting breaks for lower-income Americans, to shield them from its impacts.

    Write to John D. McKinnon at john.mckinnon@wsj.com

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...375942030.html

  27. #87
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,313
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    I guess my issue with this, Hazir, is not the exact setup (though it does mean that the government can get about 1.2% of every well-to-do person's assets every year, which seems a bit crazy), but that it requires you to have cash on hand to pay for unrealized asset value. Thus, if I've been investing into a small business or am a 'buy and hold' investor in the stock market (which is a far smarter strategy than frequent trades), all of my taxed assets aren't liquid, so I have to come up with cash somewhere else to pay for everything. It's not a problem for the truly rich, but for the merely well-off, it could be a major hindrance and a disincentive to invest. I think this is the real reason why only realized gains are taxed in the US - then you're just taking a portion of the liquidated assets, not unrealized gains. Also, you get into some difficult questions of valuation when you deal with unrealized asset value. (BTW, wifey and I need more than 20k Euros just in emergency cash, let alone saving up for things like a house downpayment or investing for retirement above and beyond currently available tax shelters...)

    On a more philosophical level, I view money and assets that I have already paid taxes on as mine. Why should I have to pay extra taxes on assets that I've previously paid taxes for? Just because I save more than the next person doesn't entitle the government to my money - quite the contrary, the government should encourage frugality and living within one's means.
    I know next to nothing how taxation in the kind of situation you refer to (small business) is arranged wrt to this specific tax. But since it is NEVER talked about I don't really think it's an issue at all.

    As for paying taxes on something bought with income that has already been taxed; that happens all the time. When you buy a bread, when you buy a car, when you buy a house. In all cases you are paying taxes with money from income that already has been taxed.
    Congratulations America

  28. #88
    I think Wiggin is referring to paying taxes on money that's already been taxed. IE, you've made money and paid income taxes, but you're being forced to pay 1.2% of it just to sit on the money in a savings account.

  29. #89
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,313
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I think Wiggin is referring to paying taxes on money that's already been taxed. IE, you've made money and paid income taxes, but you're being forced to pay 1.2% of it just to sit on the money in a savings account.
    Yeah well, that is the deal with taxation on capital, it doesn't matter much if it's spread out or if you only have to cough it up at once.

    Also the 1.2% also applies if you make a killing on the stock exchange. Then all of a sudden having 4 fictional returns taxed than the 35% you actually made isn't such a bad deal.
    Congratulations America

  30. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    I don't know exactly what your 'one year of cash' constitutes. But it would have to be more than €20,000 before you pay any taxes at all. Having a gentle nudge of capital towards real estate isn't unreasonable either in a tax-system that rewards lending money towards buying a home and very low real estate taxes on a local level. I pay shy of €600 a year for an apartment in central Amsterdam.

    Gigi, 'flipping houses' simply is taxed through the same system. Actual profits are not taxed.
    Yeah, I was going to say that one year of property taxes and insurance (homeowner's, health, auto, umbrella) are over $15,000 USD for me. That's before mortgage, sewer, refuse, utilities, gas and food. Whatever the exchange rate is now, a one year cash reserve would mean at least $50-70K for most Americans (as average annual income).

    Instead of asking about your capital gains or net worth taxes, maybe we should be asking about your expenses, if that's not too personal.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •