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Thread: What made you go WTF today?

  1. #3961
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  2. #3962
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    I sympathize. I, too, have trouble keeping in touch and submitting things on time.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  3. #3963
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Some lady on FB threatened to report me to the police--for saying cops in sthlm are jerks for harassing beggars w/out solid legal basis and compiling illegal databases of Roma and women who're victims of abuse--because my name doesn't sound Swedish it is one of the weirdest expressions of xenophobia I've seen so far in this country.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  4. #3964
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    I must say, that seems a bit much. On the other hand, you are living in Sweden.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  5. #3965
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    What can you expect from Facebook?

  6. #3966
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  7. #3967
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Just another day where Trump really IS president; congress isn't fulfilling their constitutional mandate of oversight; and the "balance" between co-equal branches of government is more like a reality TV drama series or beauty pageant. Return to Trump, negative feedback loop, recurring nightmare, WTF

  8. #3968
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  9. #3969
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Huge if true
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  10. #3970
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Been called a "far left extremist" IRL tonight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #3971
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    You are though. It's just a matter of perspective innit.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  12. #3972
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    You are though. It's just a matter of perspective innit.
    Well indeed, and I'm quite happy to be called far left compared to that nasty piece of work.

    Spoiler:
    New recruit that we'd just started. Added everyone on Facebook and while a few of us were drinking in the bar and my wife found a bunch of anti-Islam cartoons he'd shared including one where a pig was shagging a Muslim woman captioned "you'll learn to love pork." Disgusting. He said "I'm not racist, its just Muslims are terrorists". That's pretty much the definition of racist you moron. It's illegal to sack someone because of their politics but the next day he said he had to go home early for the third time in the two weeks since he'd started which is far too unreliable so we decided not to give him any more shifts on that basis then a week later he comes in screaming that we sacked him because he votes UKIP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #3973
    Senior Member Enoch the Red's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Well indeed, and I'm quite happy to be called far left compared to that nasty piece of work.

    Spoiler:
    New recruit that we'd just started. Added everyone on Facebook and while a few of us were drinking in the bar and my wife found a bunch of anti-Islam cartoons he'd shared including one where a pig was shagging a Muslim woman captioned "you'll learn to love pork." Disgusting. He said "I'm not racist, its just Muslims are terrorists". That's pretty much the definition of racist you moron. It's illegal to sack someone because of their politics but the next day he said he had to go home early for the third time in the two weeks since he'd started which is far too unreliable so we decided not to give him any more shifts on that basis then a week later he comes in screaming that we sacked him because he votes UKIP.
    Erm, haven't you argued several times here that religion != race?

  14. #3974
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    Erm, haven't you argued several times here that religion != race?
    True.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #3975
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Water is falling from the sky.
    Truth serves them
    Embrace and defend her case
    Part flattery, part threats
    "For those who cling to this domination will partake in its fall"


  16. #3976
    ======== Timbuk2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Water is falling from the sky.


    Where are you? I too seek this legendary skywater.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  17. #3977
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Cumbria. It's stopped now, but it was very weird.
    Truth serves them
    Embrace and defend her case
    Part flattery, part threats
    "For those who cling to this domination will partake in its fall"


  18. #3978
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  19. #3979
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    This reads like a Daily Mash (Onion) article.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...m-13075153.amp
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #3980
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    What the fuck John. What the actual fuck.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  21. #3981
    ======== Timbuk2's Avatar
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    1. Who's John?
    2. Why does he capitalise negro?
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  22. #3982
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    "we continuously increased the number of animals until statistical significance was reached to support our conclusions."

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-017-02765-w.pdf

    Exact quote from an article published in Nature, arguably the top journal in the natural sciences. WTF?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  23. #3983
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    "we continuously increased the number of animals until statistical significance was reached to support our conclusions."

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-017-02765-w.pdf

    Exact quote from an article published in Nature, arguably the top journal in the natural sciences. WTF?
    First off, it's from Nature Communications, a much lower tier part of the NPG family (impact factor 12.4 vs. 40+ for the real deal). Secondly, it really depends what you're trying to show to determine whether this is problematic. Generally for animal studies you do a pre hoc analysis to determine sample size. But the dirty secret is that everyone's power analysis is garbage - you generally don't know the expected variability in your data, you almost certainly don't know the expected differences you'll be observing, and choosing a power of 0.8 and alpha of 0.05 is more or less arbitrary (albeit standard).

    Doing the kind of study reported here is valuable if you're really just trying to get information about the population(s) you're studying - essentially, the size of an effect and the variability in your data. Studies published in the likes of Nature Communications often provide this level of evidence. It's not great for hypothesis testing, but that doesn't mean it isn't okay science. Hell, pretty much all of particle physics is just smashing stuff together enough times that you get a signal that meets a given set of criteria.

    The big issue here was whether they were running multiple statistical tests on the data without providing adjustments for p-values afterwards. This is a very common sin, and accounting for it is crucial to make sure you're not just reporting noise instead of real data. It might indeed be a big problem but without a clearer understanding of what they did it's hard to know.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  24. #3984
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Good catch on the journal name.

    If the purpose of the study is to see whether X has a statistically significant effect on Y, you can't just up the sample until your p-value reaches an acceptable level. This is p-hacking taken to the extreme, and the authors nonchalantly admit to it.

    If your data has substantial variability, then it should be hard to obtain statistical significance. That's the whole point. If you want to claim there's a large effect size, that's fine. If you want to claim hypothesis testing is unnecessary and that you're just providing summary statistics, that's more or less fine. But you can't have your cake and eat it too by doing hypothesis testing and then explicitly changing the parameters of the study until you get the desired result. Or at least you shouldn't admit to doing it.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #3985
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Good catch on the journal name.

    If the purpose of the study is to see whether X has a statistically significant effect on Y, you can't just up the sample until your p-value reaches an acceptable level. This is p-hacking taken to the extreme, and the authors nonchalantly admit to it.

    If your data has substantial variability, then it should be hard to obtain statistical significance. That's the whole point. If you want to claim there's a large effect size, that's fine. If you want to claim hypothesis testing is unnecessary and that you're just providing summary statistics, that's more or less fine. But you can't have your cake and eat it too by doing hypothesis testing and then explicitly changing the parameters of the study until you get the desired result. Or at least you shouldn't admit to doing it.
    I suspect that your critique is fair but I think it's important to distinguish this from p-hacking. P-hacking is essentially going in with no hypothesis, getting a shitload of data, and then running every test you can imagine until something 'significant' appears. This is distinct; they had a hypothesis but didn't know either the effect size or the population variance, so they scaled sample size to find the effect. It's potentially got some of the same problems with p-hacking if they didn't account for multiple post-hoc tests when reporting p-values (I suspect this is the case) - but it's not as dishonest as p-hacking. They're essentially saying 'we're pretty sure there's a signal here, the size of the effect we saw was X' rather than 'we had a hypothesis that Y effect exists and is this size, and sure enough we were right'. It's a bit sloppy science, since ideally they would have run a pilot study to inform their power analysis, but the fact of the matter is that no one does that.

    For subtle signals in in vivo data, I would indeed prefer to see at least one replication (or partial replication) before I'd submit this kind of data. And that would obviate the need to justify their sample size in this manner. But it's still informative IMO, even if it means your conclusions are far weaker than they might be otherwise.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  26. #3986
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    I really thought Lindsey Lohan trying to kidnap a refugee child in Moscow like she's the Baba Yaga would be the craziest thing I'd read about this week, but...

    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  27. #3987
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    The bit about her struggle to conceive:

    https://www.vogue.com/article/tammy-...er-2018-issue/
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  28. #3988
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  29. #3989
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    So, this article turns up:

    https://www.theguardian.com/environm...-from-vehicles

    The article references studies which suggest a link between pollution during gestation/early years and the referenced studies even offer suggestions on how this correlation they found might have an actual causal relation (i.e. possible mechanisms). Further study needed, though.

    Which then promptly enrages several people who can't be arsed to actually read the damn thing with one idiot going:

    "But your diet has a much larger effect on your BMI!"

    Yes, you moron, and exactly fucking no one disputes that. But this effect (if it is true) does not make it easier. I guess the idea of "cumulative effects" is hard to grasp.

    Another bloody idiot suggested that this was all "for the research grants!"

    Jesus Christ, these people. If we had them around 40 to 60 years back, we'd still have chainsmoking everywhere and would drive cars with leaded gasoline.

    Then again, them still using the latter one would explain a whole lot about those morons.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  30. #3990
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    So this person who was in my group at a week-long and very formative course we had w/ students from another programme like eight years ago realizes we have a WoTBF acquaintance in common and suddenly I have a copy of the WoTBF forum on my hard drive. I'm almost afraid to look through it. Teeny, tiny world.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

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