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Thread: Virginia Gov. Reinstates Felon Voting Right

  1. #31
    That's no moon. EyeKhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Felons in prison should not have the right to vote, but once time is served then there is no reason to deny them the vote for the rest of their life. If they're guilty of something that makes them incapable of voting, why are they not behind bars?
    I agree. Once your sentence is served, you ought to be allowed to return to society as a full citizen.
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  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    not a fan of felons voting for obvious reasons.
    Because in this day and age actual democracy makes it incredibly difficult to push your racist agenda.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  3. #33
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Denying felons the vote for life incentives certain political parties to push for legislation that criminalises large numbers of certain demographics who historically have tended to vote for other parties.

    I'm talking about republicans, the war on drugs and black people.
    If you tolerate this, then your children will be next.

  4. #34
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Voting is a right, not a privilege. I fail to see the merit of any argument that forbids people who are not actively incarcerated from being able to exercise that right. Bad people don't lose their rights. There's no moral test for suffrage. There's no mental capacity test for suffrage. There is no argument for keeping ex-felons from voting, and the fact that the Supreme Court never ruled otherwise is disgraceful.
    There isn't even a proper argument for denying actively incarcerated people from voting.

    Just as an example: A political candidate proposes the legalization of a drug. And yet the people who are in jail for, say, merely the possession of said drug are not allowed to vote for the candidate.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Because in this day and age actual democracy makes it incredibly difficult to push your racist agenda.
    Criminals tend to vote for people who don't punish criminals harshly enough. This isn't rocket science. But I'm glad you still have your 20th century blinders and can't seem to understand that people don't associate every political position as a racial issue. Only racists do that.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I agree. Once your sentence is served, you ought to be allowed to return to society as a full citizen.
    Loki never answered but I'll ask you. Thoughts on felons being allowed guns? Thoughts on sex offenders not being allowed near certain places? For clarity I'm not hypocritical about this I have no problems with felons being barred from owning guns or rapists and molesters being forced to live away from schools. I'm curious if you are.

  7. #37
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Criminals tend to vote for people who don't punish criminals harshly enough. This isn't rocket science. But I'm glad you still have your 20th century blinders and can't seem to understand that people don't associate every political position as a racial issue. Only racists do that.
    When it comes to related matters such as voter ID laws, access to voting-related services and gerrymandering, we've seen plenty of evidence that at least one party does in fact have a racist agenda motivated by a desire to stop people from voting for Democrats.
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  8. #38
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    There isn't even a proper argument for denying actively incarcerated people from voting.

    Just as an example: A political candidate proposes the legalization of a drug. And yet the people who are in jail for, say, merely the possession of said drug are not allowed to vote for the candidate.
    That's actually precisely why they should be denied the right to vote.

    What you just wrote is essentially: Just as an example: A political candidate proposes the legalization of a crime. And yet the people who are in jail for, say, merely the breaking of said law are not allowed to vote for the candidate.

    If a crime is to be legalised it should be done because its right to legalise it, as viewed by our law-abiding citizens. Not because the criminals who didn't abide by the law want to get away with breaking the law. I'm all for drug legalisation (not decriminalisation but full on legalisation) within reason but it should be decided by our law-abiding citizens.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
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  9. #39
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    I'm all for ending apartheid, but it should be ended by the oppressors. I think it shouldn't be illegal to be gay, but that decision should ultimately be reserved for straight people.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Not the same at all. Apartheid and gays were being discriminated against because of who they are, something they had no control over.

    Those who choose to take or distribute illegal drugs are criminals because of what they've done, in the full knowledge its illegal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #41
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    It was perfectly possible to not actively engage in "homosexual conduct", and felons are apparently felons forever, with no hope of ever changing their status through their own actions.
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  12. #42
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    I've said that felons should get their voting rights back the day they are released from prison. No ifs, no buts, no exceptions.

    If they're too dangerous to have voting rights then they should be too dangerous to be released from prison. If they're safe to be released from prison they should be safe to vote.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #43
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Not the same at all. Apartheid and gays were being discriminated against because of who they are, something they had no control over.

    Those who choose to take or distribute illegal drugs are criminals because of what they've done, in the full knowledge its illegal.
    You are cognizant of the psychological condition called "addiction"?

    And I fail to see how, say, MJ users are a danger to us all.
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  14. #44
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    How do law abiding citizens become addicted to an illegal drug?

    If you were talking about the abuse of prescription opiates then you may have a point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #45
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    I'll point out that the dividing line between legal and illegal drugs is a bit blurry and very arbitrary.

    I mean, alcohol is legal. It also was illegal for a certain period of time in the US.

    I'll also point out that there are countries where some drugs are illegal while there are others where the same drugs are legal.

    It's also not as if people are nailed to the spot where they are born.
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  16. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If you were talking about the abuse of prescription opiates then you may have a point.
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  17. #47
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    I'm ok with people serving time (including parole) being restricted from voting. We curtail many rights and freedoms people are normally entitled to as part of incarceration, including behaviors which are vital to a healthy democracy, like protest. I'm ok with prison not being a valid legal residence for registration purposes or a location for a polling place or voting booths for secret ballots. That also DOES strike me as a context ripe for illegal intimidation & fraud, engaged in by prison officials. Once their sentence is up, though, there is absolutely no basis for further disenfranchising them. They've served their sentence, voting isn't a recidivist behavior or temptation, and it poses no direct threat to anyone else.

    (and no, Lewk, I do not in fact approve of things like Megan's Law, nor do I approve of a criminal record as grounds for restricting firearms ownership under the current framework and context)
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  18. #48
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    I'll point out that the dividing line between legal and illegal drugs is a bit blurry and very arbitrary.

    I mean, alcohol is legal. It also was illegal for a certain period of time in the US.

    I'll also point out that there are countries where some drugs are illegal while there are others where the same drugs are legal.

    It's also not as if people are nailed to the spot where they are born.
    So are you suggesting that the US citizens who would otherwise be able to vote are currently incarcerated are only felons because they were born or grew up in a nation where the drug was legal and they had become addicted to it then consciously moved to a nation where they knew what they were addicted to was illegal there?

    I suspect the proportion of people for whom that is the case are statistically inconsequential.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  19. #49
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Terrible problem.

    I don't know if it's true or not but heard the other day that the proportion of Americans addicted to opiates is now the same as the proportion of Chinese addicted to opiates at the height of the Opium Wars. Shocking.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #50
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    I don't quite get the grounds for your objections. What other reason do you have besides the Lewkowsian "They are criminals!" ?

    I'd like an argument that's a bit more on the rational side.
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  21. #51
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    The very purpose of prison is to exclude people who can not be trusted to be free citizens. Why should we trust them with the vote?

    Law breakers should not be law makers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I'm ok with people serving time (including parole) being restricted from voting. We curtail many rights and freedoms people are normally entitled to as part of incarceration, including behaviors which are vital to a healthy democracy, like protest. I'm ok with prison not being a valid legal residence for registration purposes or a location for a polling place or voting booths for secret ballots. That also DOES strike me as a context ripe for illegal intimidation & fraud, engaged in by prison officials. Once their sentence is up, though, there is absolutely no basis for further disenfranchising them. They've served their sentence, voting isn't a recidivist behavior or temptation, and it poses no direct threat to anyone else.

    (and no, Lewk, I do not in fact approve of things like Megan's Law, nor do I approve of a criminal record as grounds for restricting firearms ownership under the current framework and context)
    Well, at least you are consistent unlike others on this thread.

  23. #53
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Loki never answered but I'll ask you. Thoughts on felons being allowed guns? Thoughts on sex offenders not being allowed near certain places? For clarity I'm not hypocritical about this I have no problems with felons being barred from owning guns or rapists and molesters being forced to live away from schools. I'm curious if you are.
    The punishment must be related to the crime. Please explain to me the link between voting and committing a felony. What about being a felon makes one a dangerous voter? And please no nonsense about felons voting in a way that benefits them. So does everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    There isn't even a proper argument for denying actively incarcerated people from voting.

    Just as an example: A political candidate proposes the legalization of a drug. And yet the people who are in jail for, say, merely the possession of said drug are not allowed to vote for the candidate.
    I wouldn't oppose letting those in jail vote. But I also accept that people serving time are being punished for "rebellion" against the body politic, which might reasonably include being temporarily deprived of voting rights.
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  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The punishment must be related to the crime. Please explain to me the link between voting and committing a felony. What about being a felon makes one a dangerous voter? And please no nonsense about felons voting in a way that benefits them. So does everyone else.
    Either the State can deprive felons of certain rights as a consequence or they can't. This is a purely binary position YES/NO. Now if the answer is "Yes the state can take away the rights of felons" and you make the argument that 'well this right should be taken away and this right shouldn't' FINE, that's an argument you can have. But you simply cannot say the State isn't allowed to take away felon's rights period, and then suggest that some rights shouldn't be included. That's hypocrisy. The right to own guns is no weaker than the right to vote.

  25. #55
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Actually, the right to own guns is substantially weaker than the right to vote, Lewk, in practice, in theory, and as a hypothetical democratic ideal.
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  26. #56
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The very purpose of prison is to exclude people who can not be trusted to be free citizens. Why should we trust them with the vote?
    Good question. Other good questions: why should we trust them with anything else? Why should we trust them with the right to breathe? Sleep? Speak? Read books? How about the right to due process? Right to not be tortured or subjected to cruel and unusual punishment? Really, why should they have any rights at all?

    Rights can be restricted, within the limits of the law, provided there are compelling arguments for the restrictions. The default position must be that people have rights. Your default position here is essentially that felons have no rights, and we must find compelling reasons to grant them rights. I don't think this is in keeping with the laws of any modern Western democracy. More suited to shitholes like Lewkistan.
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  27. #57
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Either the State can deprive felons of certain rights as a consequence or they can't. This is a purely binary position YES/NO. Now if the answer is "Yes the state can take away the rights of felons" and you make the argument that 'well this right should be taken away and this right shouldn't' FINE, that's an argument you can have. But you simply cannot say the State isn't allowed to take away felon's rights period, and then suggest that some rights shouldn't be included. That's hypocrisy. The right to own guns is no weaker than the right to vote.
    Do you think people who are convicted for prostitution should be deprived of the right to own a gun? Do you think someone who robs a store should be banned from living near schools?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  28. #58
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The very purpose of prison is to exclude people who can not be trusted to be free citizens. Why should we trust them with the vote?

    Law breakers should not be law makers.
    That's not a rational argument. Try again, please.
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  29. #59
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    That's not a rational argument. Try again, please.
    Democracy cannot effectively operate within the strictly monitored and controlled confines of overt and legal state tyranny which is a prison. You cannot sufficiently guard from either fraud or targeted suppression.

    We restrict their speech rights, outright ban things like assembly, strictly control or forbid them from working or earning a paycheck, deny them any freedom of movement, house them in places which weren't/aren't in the same districts as their proper residences, afford them little to no privacy, and closely regulate and restrict who may even enter the premises where they spend all their time. But apparently perish the idea that we might restrict their right to vote, whose proper exercise relies on or is impinged heavily by all of the above. You think you're going to get enough volunteer poll workers to go into all the prisons to allow them to vote? Or maybe we'll just have them all vote absentee when their ballots can and will be scrutinized by prison officials like all the other mail (which means rampant fraud, intimidation, and retaliation)
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  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Do you think people who are convicted for prostitution should be deprived of the right to own a gun? Do you think someone who robs a store should be banned from living near schools?
    In theory I don't have a philosophical problem in general with either. However specifically people who rob should be locked up for life and prostitution should be legal so the point is rather moot.

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