Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 102

Thread: Does the UK Labour Party have an antisemitism problem?

  1. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    10,022
    You mean you don't like Uncle Toms being used for that they are best used for ?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    You mean you don't like Uncle Toms being used for that they are best used for ?
    I don't want to wield the 'Uncle Tom' or 'self-hating Jew' rhetoric all that much because I think it is also frequently misused to ostracize anyone in a community who doesn't toe the communal narrative on e.g. Israel. I just want to point out that others outside the community shouldn't hide behind said individual's membership of a given community as justification to repeating their statements without any thought as to whether they are appropriate.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  3. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    10,022
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    I don't want to wield the 'Uncle Tom' or 'self-hating Jew' rhetoric all that much because I think it is also frequently misused to ostracize anyone in a community who doesn't toe the communal narrative on e.g. Israel. I just want to point out that others outside the community shouldn't hide behind said individual's membership of a given community as justification to repeating their statements without any thought as to whether they are appropriate.
    Of course I agree. Without condoning PC I think that some things said in a particular situation by a particular individual can be totale inappropriate when repeated in a different setting. There is a grey field though.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  4. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    10,022
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Of course I agree. Without condoning PC I think that some things said in a particular situation by a particular individual can be totale inappropriate when repeated in a different setting. There is a grey field though.
    Ok, I don't know exactly if it counts as anti-semitism but I am pretty certain that calling the creation of Israel a disaster almost 70 years after the fact in the cause of a debate on current politics, like Ken Livingstone did, really makes you a racist. The implications are no other than that you are favoring a 'solution' that can only be reached by a process that fits the definition of a genocide. l
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Ok, I don't know exactly if it counts as anti-semitism but I am pretty certain that calling the creation of Israel a disaster almost 70 years after the fact in the cause of a debate on current politics, like Ken Livingstone did, really makes you a racist. The implications are no other than that you are favoring a 'solution' that can only be reached by a process that fits the definition of a genocide. l
    I think it's fair (and not necessarily racist) for Palestinians to call the establishment of the State of Israel a catastrophe - after all, it was a cataclysm for the Palestinian world, albeit only partially as a result of Israel's establishment. The issue is the context of Livingstone's comments was to lay all of the problems at the Middle East at the feet of Israel's existence rather than a complex series of issues of which Israel is largely a peripheral irritant. I put Livingstone in the 'idiot' category mostly because he seems unable to keep his mouth shut and rather digs himself into deeper trouble. He's drinking the kool-aid, certainly, but his antisemitism seems to be more of the 'unthinking and misinformed' variety than the pernicious sort. Doesn't make his comments even remotely acceptable, of course.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  6. #36
    ======== Timbuk2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    5,005
    Well London has voted in Sadiq Khan, a muslim Labour mayor.

    I voted for Zac

  7. #37
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    10,022
    I'm seriously wondering why the fact that he's muslim is such a big deal. Is he expected to build a billion mosques in the Capital or is his religion actually not all that relevant to his political views.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  8. #38
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    16,699
    Not a fan of Labour, but Goldsmith was running a Trump-lite campaign towards the end. He deserved to lose.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  9. #39
    ======== Timbuk2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    5,005
    Purely nimby on my part; Zac was against the expansion of heathrow.

    But yes his campaign went in a direction I was less and less comfortable with.

  10. #40
    This would be funny if it weren't true:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7110931.html
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  11. #41
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    10,022
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    This would be funny if it weren't true:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7110931.html
    I think technically that post belongs in Zionuts.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  12. #42
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    16,699
    Does anyone know what an "occasionally toxic atmosphere" means?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    I think technically that post belongs in Zionuts.
    You'd be hard-pressed to find a difference.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #43
    I love that it's a speech trying to settle the antisemitism issue where he says something that can be so easily taken as a deeply offensive comment. The irony is remarkable - and you have to wonder if anyone actually read the speech before he gave it.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  14. #44
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    16,699
    Shows you how deeply ingrained the anti-Semitism is.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  15. #45
    This issue has been simmering for the last two years, but it recently came to another head over a whole string of own goals by Corbyn and his leadership. The latest coup de grace administered by Corbyn himself was this fantastic piece on Friday:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...m-labour-party

    Somehow, despite 2+ years of this issue, he still hasn't figured out how to definitively draw a line under things and move forward. Labour right now should be preparing to take power - the absolute shambles of how Brexit has been handled should mean that they could easily defeat the Tories in the next election, and they should be laser-focused on exposing the ineptness and all-around chaos in the May government. Yet they're still mired in this controversy, which has, if anything, gotten worse each time they try to address things.

    I think most of this really is Corbyn's fault. His instinctive response seems to be circling the wagons and denying any wrongdoing rather than making some sincere acceptance of past mistakes and establishing a clear plan of action moving forward. The party's response has been somewhere between tone-deaf and ridiculously ham-handed. Frankly, it's shocking - Jews across the Western world have traditionally supported left wing causes at a far higher rate, and UK's Labour party is no exception. But is appears that nearly every Jewish organization in Britain - major Labour Jewish groupings included - appear to have lost any shred of faith or trust in the Corbyn-led party. This is an astonishing result by itself, which should be cause for the party leadership to do some very serious soul-searching.

    Frankly, I don't see this getting any better unless Corbyn's leadership is replaced. In the absence of such a circumstance, I think this is going to drag on and be a massive distraction and source of internal party strife when they should be making political hay over the implosion of the Tory party.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  16. #46
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    16,699
    Corbyn won't be replaced for the same reason Republicans stick with Trump: he's wildly popular with the base, a vast majority of which either doesn't care about the issue or has a habit of whining about evil "Zionists."
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Corbyn won't be replaced for the same reason Republicans stick with Trump: he's wildly popular with the base, a vast majority of which either doesn't care about the issue or has a habit of whining about evil "Zionists."
    Oh, I agree. I was just saying that Corbyn seems incapable of effectively grappling with this issue, and I think it's just going to drag on until he's replaced (likely in quite a while for entirely different reasons). But if I was a British leftist I would be dismayed at how badly he is handling this issue, and how he appears to be permanently poisoning relations with a key group of supporters.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  18. #48
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    15,144
    The problem is that Jews are not viewed as a key group of supporters. In fact I've seen some Corbyn supporting lefties explicitly say that Jewish voters are such a small minority that they don't care if Jews vote Conservative as they will get more votes from Muslims etc
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  19. #49
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    14,234
    It is an unnecessary choice. There are ten times as many Muslims in the UK as there are Jews, but the number of people who are so extreme in either group that they can't both find a natural home in Labour (without the Corbynites) is comparatively small. Corbynites are disproportionately influential in Labour today, but that has always been the case for vocal ideological extremists in all parties. Think they'll be punished severely for dragging the party down with them at such a critical juncture.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  20. #50
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    15,144
    I fully agree it is an unnecessary choice. I also find it rather condescending to believe that Muslims would be more likely to vote for an antisemetic party. I certainly hope they will be punished severely, they deserve to be.

    It's always been the case in my opinion that the extremes on each wing share more in common with each other than the centrists on their own wing. Corbyn and his ilk won't like it but are more in common with Trump than central left wing figures like Trudeau.

    “The creatures outside looked from Corbynites to Trumpists, and from Trumpists to Corbynites, and from Corbynites to Trumpists again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #51
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    14,234
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I fully agree it is an unnecessary choice. I also find it rather condescending to believe that Muslims would be more likely to vote for an antisemetic party.
    Why? Conservative white voters in both the UK and the US are more likely to vote for parties and political representatives pushing a racist, xenophobic--frequently outright Islamophobic--agenda. Many of them lie to themselves and say that what looks like racism, xenophobia, Islamophobia etc. aren't really anything of the sort--that it's just realism, prudence, hard truths, concern for evolved western values etc being described as racism, xenophobia and Islamophobia by political enemies trying to smear the party by any means necessary. Similarly, many Corbynites--and certainly a large number of British Muslims--and their enablers have convinced themselves that what others recognize as antisemitism in Labour is nothing of the sort--that they're just being smeared by their "globalist" warmongering pro-Israel neocon enemies, who aren't above cynically exploiting the charge of antisemitism to cripple Labour. In this political climate, it is difficult for partisans to honestly reflect on problems at home.

    It's always been the case in my opinion that the extremes on each wing share more in common with each other than the centrists on their own wing. Corbyn and his ilk won't like it but are more in common with Trump than central left wing figures like Trudeau.

    “The creatures outside looked from Corbynites to Trumpists, and from Trumpists to Corbynites, and from Corbynites to Trumpists again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
    This is true of Conservative populists as well. Partisanship is a hell of a drug.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  22. #52
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    16,699
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It is an unnecessary choice. There are ten times as many Muslims in the UK as there are Jews, but the number of people who are so extreme in either group that they can't both find a natural home in Labour (without the Corbynites) is comparatively small. Corbynites are disproportionately influential in Labour today, but that has always been the case for vocal ideological extremists in all parties. Think they'll be punished severely for dragging the party down with them at such a critical juncture.
    At least anecdotally, Corbyn is popular even amongst mainstream Labourites, not just the fringe. And they view any attack on Corbyn as illegitimate, including for his leftism and rather interesting relationship with Russia and various terrorist groups.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  23. #53
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    14,234
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    At least anecdotally, Corbyn is popular even amongst mainstream Labourites, not just the fringe. And they view any attack on Corbyn as illegitimate, including for his leftism and rather interesting relationship with Russia and various terrorist groups.
    Anecdotes are tricky. Anecdotally, the mainstream Labour supporters I know and the ones I see online--regular old Labour, not even Blairites--are extremely frustrated with him and with Momentum, due to their repeated own goals, their incompetent handling of the antisemitism issue, their ineffectual opposition, their support of Brexit, etc.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  24. #54
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    16,699
    Your contacts seem to be far more politically involved/aware than the average Labour voter.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #55
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    15,144
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Your contacts seem to be far more politically involved/aware than the average Labour voter.
    Only 59% of Labour's own supporters are satisfied with Corbyn, 30% dissatisfied: https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-...rty-supporters

    That's a remarkably poor rating for an opposition leader who isn't having to make any tough decisions to have with his own supporters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #56
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    14,234
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Your contacts seem to be far more politically involved/aware than the average Labour voter.
    Certainly possible, but that would suggest that much of Corbyn's support (apart from Momentum etc) comes from people who are simply uninvolved/uninformed partisans who just prefer Labour to Conservatives, regardless of party leader--meaning an alternative to Corbyn could be equally if not more palatable to the average Labour voter. Corbyn's has the dubious pleasure of enjoying shockingly low approval for being a Labour opposition leader essentially standing before an open goal.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  27. #57
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    15,144
    He does.

    He also recorded a higher vote share at the last General Election than almost any Labour leader excluding Blair for many decades.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #58
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    15,144
    Disgusting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  29. #59
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    6,968
    I actually don't find that response to be that disgusting. If we actually approach this appropriately (looking at things via color-blind lens) and some French-born guy talked about his French values he learned growing up in France before immigrating to the UK and someone responded, "well go back to France then" is the comment still disgusting?

    Though to be fair if your left is anything like the American left they tend to view minorities who are conservative as particularly evil and will often use racist attacks against them.

  30. #60
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    14,234
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Disgusting.
    This is par for the course in the UK these days, not only among Labour supporters. British Remainers of non-British heritage are frequently told to leave when they express criticism of the UK's decision to leave the EU or of the mendacious & incompetent conduct of those politicians entrusted with implementing that decision. This partisan halfwit can try to portray this as a problem unique to Labour, but he is clearly misleading his readers.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •