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Thread: Does the UK Labour Party have an antisemitism problem?

  1. #61
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    This is par for the course in the UK these days, not only among Labour supporters. British Remainers of non-British heritage are frequently told to leave when they express criticism of the UK's decision to leave the EU or of the mendacious & incompetent conduct of those politicians entrusted with implementing that decision. This partisan halfwit can try to portray this as a problem unique to Labour, but he is clearly misleading his readers.
    LOL you are such a hypocritical shit sometimes.

    You catch some right winger posting something vile and look how evil the right are.
    You catch some Brexiteer posting something vile and look how evil the Brexiteers are.

    You see a left winger posting something evil and its yebbut what about the Brexiteers?

    Hypocrite! Bear this mentality in mind next time someone with politics you dislike posts something you dislike if that's going to be your attitude.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    If we actually approach this appropriately (looking at things via color-blind lens) and some French-born guy talked about his French values he learned growing up in France before immigrating to the UK and someone responded, "well go back to France then" is the comment still disgusting?
    Yes, and you're a disgusting person for not seeing why.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  3. #63
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    LOL you are such a hypocritical shit sometimes.

    You catch some right winger posting something vile and look how evil the right are.
    You catch some Brexiteer posting something vile and look how evil the Brexiteers are.

    You see a left winger posting something evil and its yebbut what about the Brexiteers?

    Hypocrite! Bear this mentality in mind next time someone with politics you dislike posts something you dislike if that's going to be your attitude.
    You want to make this look like a partisan problem, but to the extent that general racism and xenophobia are partisan problems in the UK, they are currently more common among people who identify as conservatives or at least not as Labour. I can understand how this might upset and frustrate you, but you got greedy RB. You could've easily avoided this by sticking to the issue of Labour's tolerance of antisemitism. But, because you wanted to exploit this by making more general partisan attacks, it was appropriate to correct your misapprehension. Telling citizens to go back where they came from is not a characteristically Labour thing to do. It is, however, characteristic of a certain kind of jingoistic xenophobic ethno-nationalism that has found a home among conservatives all over the west. That can certainly change, but, until it does, you'll just have to accept reality.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  4. #64
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Sorry but that is utter claptrap and you know it. "Go home to ..." is disgusting and inexcusable regardless of who it comes from. You'll never have seen me excuse or justify it from Conservatives of any variety.

    I did not "get greedy" I only used one word and that word was Disgusting. It is disgusting and if you can't acknowledge that without caveats, without excuses and without yebbut whatabouterisms then you are no better than Lewkowski.

    If I see this on the right then I condemn it. If you want to do the same then take the mote out of your own eye and be prepared to do the same without excuses when the left do it.

    This language is disgusting. No its, no buts. Left or right, black or white it is wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #65
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Sorry but that is utter claptrap and you know it. "Go home to ..." is disgusting and inexcusable regardless of who it comes from. You'll never have seen me excuse or justify it from Conservatives of any variety.

    I did not "get greedy" I only used one word and that word was Disgusting. It is disgusting and if you can't acknowledge that without caveats, without excuses and without yebbut whatabouterisms then you are no better than Lewkowski.

    If I see this on the right then I condemn it. If you want to do the same then take the mote out of your own eye and be prepared to do the same without excuses when the left do it.

    This language is disgusting. No its, no buts. Left or right, black or white it is wrong.
    I offered no excuses. Do you think it's somehow better for a lone Labour supporter to say that sort of thing just because a ton of Conservatives do the same? If not, why do you imagine I do?

    The person whose tweet you quoted was more interested in launching a partisan attack, as were you, unless you're trying to tell me you didn't actually read the tweet you decided to quote. This is misleading. His approach obscures the truth that this sort of attitude is widespread, and more common among non-Labour supporters atm. Your approach obscures the truth that it isn't simply about a few especially reprehensible people but rather a systemic change in political discourse.

    Your claim that you condemn racism and xenophobia when it crops up among those you support is also misleading. You typically cannot acknowledge the role racism and xenophobia have played in modern British Conservative politics--such as Brexit--and, when confronted with undeniable evidence, you usually either engage in semantic games that let you claim such people aren't true Conservatives, or you treat them as unique bad apples. There is a whole thread where you spend one post after another mustering increasingly dubious arguments to defend the racism of American police officers.

    I can see how all of this may be puzzling to you because of your tendency to never look past the surface. So when you see a purported Labour supporter saying something generally racist, you cannot put that into context, and therefore do not understand how the implications are different from when eg. a UKIP supporter says the same sort of thing. Like Lewk, you have difficulties understanding the importance of context.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  6. #66
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Nowhere in the Tweet I quoted were Conservatives regarded as without problems or contrasted with.

    If a young Labour activist had been told by a Tory to "go back to Ghana" you'd have been rightfully outraged and I'd have condemned it without equivocation.

    The fact you can't condemn this without equivocation says more about you than anyone else. It is sad.

    I have never justified racism by American cops I've condemned bad apples in American cops. I've said its not representative of all cops which it's not. If you wanted to say that this is not representative of all Labour supporters then that would be equally as justified as saying that about cops.

    There is zero difference whatsoever between a Labour person or a UKIP person saying go back to Ghana. It is vile and racist regardless of who the person supports. If anything I'd be most outraged if a Tory said it as I don't want that being said in my name. The fact you only care if a political opponent says it betrays you as a hyper partisan.

    Lewk couldn't see what was wrong with it. Ominous Gamer could. You seem to be in league with Lewk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #67
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    He's a Conservative activist who tarred all of Labour with the same brush based on this person's attack, and, like you, showed no evidence that he recognized how misleading that is. Here's what he actually said:

    The Labour response? "Go back to Ghana!"
    So it's not just Jews that Labour have a problem with.
    This is bullshit. It is entirely partisan and it is misleading. If a Labour activist had been told by a Tory to go back to Ghana, you would immediately launch a No True Scotsman defense in your own mind, and I would laugh at you. But I have to correct you on one thing: I wouldn't have been outraged, because, by today's standards, such an attack would really be par for the course, and my threshold for outrage has had to be adjusted to reflect that.

    I have no reason to doubt that the person who told the young man to go back to Ghana is a Labour sympathizer. What he said was bad, which makes the tweet even worse: the person who quoted him doesn't give a fuck about racism against British citizens of Ghanaian descent except as fuel for partisan attacks, and neither he nor you go out of your way to highlight racism and xenophobia among British Conservatives and in British Conservative policy. Instead, you regularly turn yourself into a pretzel trying to dismiss the Tories' long-running affair with xenophobes and racists as a fantasy conjured up to smear the freedom-loving saviours of England.

    You're absolutely right, I have difficulties seeing misleading partisan attacks without feeling a need to challenge them and to provide context. If you have issues with your favourite party being challenged, or with acknowledging a context that makes that party look bad, that's your problem. It is of no concern to me.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  8. #68
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    So you can't simply condemn disgusting racism without equivocation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #69
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    So you can't simply condemn disgusting racism without equivocation.
    I'm sorry but you appear to be of the belief that providing context, seeing the whole picture and challenging misleading partisan attacks are somehow tantamount to equivocation. If that is indeed what you mean when you say "equivocation", I guess you're absolutely right, although that's not what the word means. Condemning racism is an exercise in meaningless virtue-signalling to you but I'm not really persuaded by your signalling given your long-running defense of racist policies, racist policing and, indeed, racist pub-management.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  10. #70
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    I've never backed any racism of any kind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #71
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Getting back on topic: What the actual fuck!? This Tweet is from a Labour MP so don't claim it's a Tory partisan attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  12. #72
    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    This is par for the course in the UK these days, not only among Labour supporters. British Remainers of non-British heritage are frequently told to leave when they express criticism of the UK's decision to leave the EU or of the mendacious & incompetent conduct of those politicians entrusted with implementing that decision. This partisan halfwit can try to portray this as a problem unique to Labour, but he is clearly misleading his readers.
    This is the "but her e-mails!" response.

  13. #73
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    LOL that's exactly it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  14. #74
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    This is the "but her e-mails!" response.
    Not really, no. Please reread it.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  15. #75
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Rand, you lose the right to complain about Corbyn's anti-semitism the second you defend an asshole for mocking Muslims. Any Labourite who publicly used similar language about Jews would be suspended from the party or worse.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #76
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    No they wouldn't. Any Labourite using such language about Jews would not be controversial enough to even reach the news, let alone have action taken.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  17. #77
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  18. #78
    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    That's funny

    This is less so:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-wreath-laying

    Caveat: Guardian al Hezballah cited in this.

  19. #79
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Turns out opposition politics is stressful and incompetent in every place for every one.

    But we will focus on this one because British leftism is offensive.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  20. #80
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Antisemitism is offensive. I never thought I'd say this but bring back Ed Miliband.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #81
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    It absolutely is. But that shouldn't preclude us from condemning other forms of bigotry. It's not a competition to see who's worst.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #82
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  23. #83
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    http://hurryupharry.org/2018/08/23/c...tish-zionists/

    The Labour leader said: ’[British Zionists] clearly have two problems. One is they don’t want to study history, and secondly, having lived in this country for a very long time, probably all their lives, they don’t understand English irony either.’

    In the past I have disliked politicians from opposition parties and my own. I thought Brown wrecked the economy. But I always disagreed with his politics, I didn't dislike him as a person. Corbyn is scum. Vile, hate-filled, racist bigot. A British socialist Trump. Trump and Corbyn are bigots of the first order, what have our nations done to deserve them?

    I like this response:
    To say that Jews dont understand history when they have been hunted down so often in history is one thing, to say that they dont get bloody fucking irony? When the finest writers and comedians have been Jewish and a finely tuned sense of irony runs through Jewish culture? All of that from a po-faced humourless sack of shit like Corbyn? Well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  24. #84
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Veteran Labour MP Frank Field has resigned the whip (basically quit the party and become an independent MP) over antisemitism: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...emitism-crisis

    It's tragic that today's Labour Party has no room in it for MPs like Field. I was born in Birkenhead and Field has been Labour MP for Birkenhead for my entire life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #85
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Veteran Labour MP Frank Field has resigned the whip (basically quit the party and become an independent MP) over antisemitism: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...emitism-crisis

    It's tragic that today's Labour Party has no room in it for MPs like Field. I was born in Birkenhead and Field has been Labour MP for Birkenhead for my entire life.
    Xenophobic authoritarian dinosaur, having lost a vote of no confidence in his own constituency and facing the threat of deselection, chooses to resign rather than being humiliated, blames the very antisemitism he tolerated in the party for decades for the decision.

    Dear Frank,

    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  26. #86
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    You're an ignorant excuser of racism. There is no difference between the racism of Corbynites and Trumpists so think carefully whose side you want to be on there.

    Field has acted honourably after serving his party faithfully for four decades. He's been MP for my birthtown since before I was born.

    As for tolerated in the party the Labour Party until recently to give it credit has been an antiracism rather than antisemitic party. Its last leader before Corbyn was Jewish. There was minor incidents of racism including an antisemitic attack on the Tories when we had a Jewish leader and shadow chancellor that was apologised for. This rampant abuse now is new.

    Or relatively new. The far left, like the far right, have always been racist. But until recently they've only been a minority. It's only now that the racist lunatics have taken over the asylum.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  27. #87
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    You're an ignorant excuser of racism. There is no difference between the racism of Corbynites and Trumpists so think carefully whose side you want to be on there.
    I understand that you don't care about either racism or truth except as a means of partisan point-scoring, but pointing out that Field is a xenophobic bullshit-artist doesn't actually make anti-Semitic Labour members/voters any better. It just clarifies the status of the xenophobic bullshit-artist.

    Field resigned because of the vote of no confidence held a month ago over his decision--along with four other Labour MPs--to support the govt. on a crucial piece of Brexit-related legislation that helped May avoid a humiliating defeat and made a hard no-deal Brexit more likely, contrary to the wishes of rank-and-file Labour members and Labour MPs. He faced the threat of deselection and saw this as an excellent opportunity to control the story while making his exit on his own terms.

    Field has acted honourably after serving his party faithfully for four decades.
    Honour doesn't come into it. Field was practically too Tory even for the Blairite wing, and he has in the past employed disgusting xenophobic rhetoric & arguments that have been lauded by the likes of BNP. Recently, he betrayed his party by being one of a handful of Labour MPs to defect to the govt's position on a critical piece of legislation. Like one of his compatriots, the even more overtly racist Kate Hoey, he was punished for this with a vote of no confidence, and knew he faced deselection. Rather than suffering the humiliation, he chose to resign--and, being dishonourable, gave antisemitism as an excuse, even though everyone knows that antisemitism is nothing new in Labour.

    He's been MP for my birthtown since before I was born.
    I'm not sure whether that explains a lot about him or you but perhaps it does.

    As for tolerated in the party the Labour Party until recently to give it credit has been an antiracism rather than antisemitic party. Its last leader before Corbyn was Jewish. There was minor incidents of racism including an antisemitic attack on the Tories when we had a Jewish leader and shadow chancellor that was apologised for. This rampant abuse now is new.

    Or relatively new. The far left, like the far right, have always been racist. But until recently they've only been a minority. It's only now that the racist lunatics have taken over the asylum.
    Like so many of your bizarre ideas about the world, this is utterly ahistorical. Antisemitism in Labour didn't arise fully-formed, ex nihilo, with Corbyn's Leadership; it has existed in Labour for at least three decades, about as long as anti-Zionism has had a prominent place in the party's platform. Corbyn has been a Labour MP for 35 years. You're trying to rewrite history in order to defend a xenophobic bullshitter's latest bullshitting attempt.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  28. #88
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Is this the British equivalent to "racism vanished in 2008 because of Obama"?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #89
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I understand that you don't care about either racism or truth except as a means of partisan point-scoring, but pointing out that Field is a xenophobic bullshit-artist doesn't actually make anti-Semitic Labour members/voters any better. It just clarifies the status of the xenophobic bullshit-artist.
    Only if you're someone who thinks that capping net immigration is xenophobic. When has he spoken against any race or ethnicity?
    Field resigned because of the vote of no confidence held a month ago over his decision--along with four other Labour MPs--to support the govt. on a crucial piece of Brexit-related legislation that helped May avoid a humiliating defeat and made a hard no-deal Brexit more likely, contrary to the wishes of rank-and-file Labour members and Labour MPs. He faced the threat of deselection and saw this as an excellent opportunity to control the story while making his exit on his own terms.
    Do you know which MP has voted against the Labour whip and with the Tories the most? Including on Europe-related legislation? One Jeremy Corbyn.
    everyone knows that antisemitism is nothing new in Labour.

    <snip>

    Like so many of your bizarre ideas about the world, this is utterly ahistorical. Antisemitism in Labour didn't arise fully-formed, ex nihilo, with Corbyn's Leadership; it has existed in Labour for at least three decades, about as long as anti-Zionism has had a prominent place in the party's platform. Corbyn has been a Labour MP for 35 years. You're trying to rewrite history in order to defend a xenophobic bullshitter's latest bullshitting attempt.
    How does that disagree with "The far left, like the far right, have always been racist. But until recently they've only been a minority. It's only now that the racist lunatics have taken over the asylum." The Trumpists are vile racists but if someone were to quit the GOP now citing their racism would you respond this way?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  30. #90
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    The hard left are now passing motions of no confidence against MPs who are part of the group Labour Friends of Israel. Tonight it's chair and one other MP got no confidenced.

    Apparently it was of interest to former employer of Jeremy Corbyn, the Iranian state TV:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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