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Thread: Let's embrace the world: Why I'm voting Leave

  1. #1

    Default Let's embrace the world: Why I'm voting Leave

    After a lifetime of thinking the EU is (increasing flawed but) worth staying in, I now think on the balance of probabilities we'd be better off out. Largely this has come from the much more respectful debate from the leave side than I had expected. Starting with this excellent and very positive article by Michael Gove that is world's apart from the usual negativity of leavers like Farage or even remainers now like our PM: http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/02...backing-leave/

    Trade - rest of world
    The most significant reason I supported EU membership was for free trade. If the EU is to be a free trade zone which the UK as a nation can trade with the nations of France, Germany etc then that is something I'd unhesitatingly support.

    But the EU is increasing twisting itself beyond that on ways that are inimical to both democracy and growth. Far from being a positive area of free trade, it is an increasingly socialist and protectionist bloc that prevents us from making the most trading with the rest of the world. In order to sign a free trade deal with a growing part of the world's economy we need to reach an agreement that suits not just the UK Parliament but the lowest common denominator of 27 other nations including protectionist France etc - as a result we don't have a free trade deal with any major non-European nation. America, China, Brazil, Russia, India, Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea, New Zealand, Pakistan etc - all nothing.

    A free trade zone with our nearest neighbours and turning our backs on the rest of the world may have made sense 50 years ago. It doesn't in the 21st century. Far from worrying about Little England, it is wrong to worry about Little Europe alone. Over 93% of the world's population do not live in the EU and over 90% of the world's economic growth over the next 10-15 years is forecast to take place outside of Europe. Why should we be turning our back on 93% of the world, or 90% of world growth?

    Trade - Europe
    Of course trading with Europe will remain incredibly important for a long time, even with the rest of the world increasing ever more important. But already even within the confines of the EU and inability to make free trade deals of our own the EU share of our exports is down to 44% and falling. Down from over 55% a decade ago. I suspect within a decade of striking new free trade deals, the EU will be responsible for just a third of our exports.

    So it will be important to sign a free trade deal, even while seeking new ones. But it should be readily possible. The reality is that the EU has a free trade deal of some sort with every nation in the continent of Europe even those not in the EFTA except for I believe Russia and Belarus. The UK is the rest of the EU's single largest goods export market. We are a bigger export market than the whole of USA even! With all but three small EU nations running a trade surplus with us. Even if the Hazir's of the EU want to punish the UK for leaving the realitpolitik is that exporters like BMW will not permit Merkel to sacrifice Europe's most important customer.



    Constitutional values
    It is becoming increasingly clear we don't want the same thing. I want a free trade zone, I don't want to be a part of a country called Europe. It seems like other nations either are OK with being part of a country called Europe or aren't concerned enough to stop it. So why stay in unhappy rather than leave and sign a trade deal instead?

    Migration
    I'm a fervent believer in free movement and the benefits of immigration. However one argument I'd never thought of until recently is that EU migration is displacing non-EU migration. There are over 6.5 billion non-EU people and approximately 445 million EU people. But EU migration makes up approximately half of all migration and has grown dramtically since Eastwards expansion and in an attempt to bring the total net migration figure down consecutive governments have tightened the screws tougher and tougher for anyone outside the EU. Now in order to get a "skilled workers visa" a non-EU citizen needs an employer to sponsor them with a salary of at least £35,000 per annum (nearly double what it was a few years ago). That means that while an unskilled Romanian who doesn't speak English can simply arrive with no work, a nurse or teacher from Australia or Canada can't get a visa on a nurse or teacher's salary. That's not fair. Boris Johnson has been someone who has always been pro-immigration and he has made a convincing argument that we should leave in order to treat people equitably, rather than doing the usual ravings against migrants the likes of Farage do.

    Incidentally I grew up in Australia, which is partially perhaps why I'm so pro-migration. I did not realise how badly we were pulling up the drawbridge on Australians and the rest of the world at present and I found that shocking, repugnant and offensive.

    Furthermore my sister-in-law is a Canadian citizen, a teacher in training (in her final year of placement after completing uni). She has looked into working potentially in the UK and as a British citizen [via my Scottish father-in-law] she could but any of her classmates would be forbidden. A skilled, qualified teacher who speaks English is a more valuable migrant than an unskilled migrant. We should be fair. An "Australian-style points based immigration system" already exists for 93% of people in the world, but because it doesn't for 7% which includes many impoverished nations the requirements are being made tougher and tougher. Treat everyone the same and make it easier again like it used to be.

    It will be a shame to lose the right to live, travel, move etc across all of Europe on a British passport, I still love the idea of that. But realistically for holidays there will never be a visa requirement either way (there wasn't in western Europe pre-EEC and isn't when I holiday in Canada).

    Summary: Let's embrace the whole world, not a small corner of it.
    Last edited by RandBlade; 06-12-2016 at 06:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  2. #2
    And you expect Boris Johnson or whichever nationalist comes to power as a result of Brexit to pursue a globalist agenda?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
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    TL;DR bye bye
    Congratulations America

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    And you expect Boris Johnson or whichever nationalist comes to power as a result of Brexit to pursue a globalist agenda?
    BoJo is not a nationalist. So yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #5
    Boris has been playing the nationalist card for months now. He's not simply going to do an about-turn once the referendum is over. It's amazing how you're willing to give up certain benefits for highly uncertain hopes.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  6. #6
    Boris has not only been making globalist statements for decades in the past he has also been making a globalist and positive argument for Leave. That's what helped win me over.

    Read http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/..._to_vote_leave and tell me that is unbridled nationalism and negativity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #7
    Well, if he says so in one speech, it must be true. It's not like he's made a career of contradicting himself or something.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...er-ttip-u-turn

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6996286.html
    Hope is the denial of reality

  8. #8
    He's said it in a lifetime of speeches. If he's capable of contradicting himself then there seems little reason to be concerned that he'd be a raving nationalist when he clearly is not.

    Besides we have zero raving nationalist MPs in Parliament and just 5000 votes in 2015 for a far right party, as opposed to millions across Europe with some actually in government in some of our partners. The next PM like all past and future ones will be whoever can control a majority of Parliament and that will be someone I can live with given the current makeup of the Commons. With such a slim majority the next PM will need to unite all Tories to support him to control the Commons, or be able to reach across the aisle for support. That is not going to be an isolationist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #9
    So you're not going to explain away his about-turn on TTIP?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #10
    He didn't do an about turn, he criticised the EU for not agreeing or implementing the deal. That Guardian article is completely distorting and dishonest, he's not about-turned on TTIP he's lampooned the EU's inability to complete the deal.

    What he said was from the link I provided, he's criticising the EU for not completing the deal, he is not criticising them for making one.
    As for the argument that we need the muscle of EU membership, if we are to do trade deals – well, look, as I say, at the results after 42 years of membership. The EU has done trade deals with the Palestinian authority and San Marino. Bravo. But it has failed to conclude agreements with India, China or even America.

    Why? Because negotiating on behalf of the EU is like trying to ride a vast pantomime horse, with 28 people blindly pulling in different directions. For decades deals with America have been blocked by the French film industry, and the current TTIP negotiations are stalled at least partly because Greek feta cheese manufacturers object to the concept of American feta. They may be right, aesthetically, but it should not be delaying us in this country.
    It takes terrible dishonestly to read a complaint about negotiations being stalled as a complaint about negotiations happening. He wants a deal agreed and implemented is what he is saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #11
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    By the way, the last time you lot 'embraced the world' you overstayed your welcome. And they still don't remember the British Empire for the handful of railroads you built.
    Congratulations America

  12. #12
    Only you would take wanting to look outside our continent as an implication of Empire building. Save your hate for someone else, why would I want to share my demos with someone who hates my nation as much as you do?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    He didn't do an about turn, he criticised the EU for not agreeing or implementing the deal. That Guardian article is completely distorting and dishonest, he's not about-turned on TTIP he's lampooned the EU's inability to complete the deal.

    What he said was from the link I provided, he's criticising the EU for not completing the deal, he is not criticising them for making one.
    It takes terrible dishonestly to read a complaint about negotiations being stalled as a complaint about negotiations happening. He wants a deal agreed and implemented is what he is saying.
    Ah so there's just the EU side to that whole thing. Strangely enough I thought the Americans were also negotiating. Someone should tell you that to come to an agreement with the USA isn't always as simple as calling the person in charge in the White House.

    Now we're talking about that, you think Obama will remind your new-found hero of the fact that he is actually an American who may have Kenyan genes, but was raised by his white mother and grandparents and later his Indonesian stepfather so he actually has NO Kenyan prejudices against the UK? But that he thinks Boris is a complete racist ass for assuming that he has them?
    Congratulations America

  14. #14
    Yeah, forgive me for not wanting to throw EU membership in the bin in favour of some hypothetical free trade deals that may or may or appear decades down the line and may or may not be better and more lucrative than what we currently have with the EU which may or may not make free trade agreements with those exact same places within the same time-frame, but from a stronger bargaining position.
    When the sky above us fell
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    Into kingdom come

  15. #15
    Free trade agreements aren't unicorns. It shouldn't be too hard to negotiate them as long as everyone's an adult about it (which usually doesn't happen with free trade agreements, but still).

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Free trade agreements aren't unicorns. It shouldn't be too hard to negotiate them as long as everyone's an adult about it (which usually doesn't happen with free trade agreements, but still).
    You realise that in the case of the UK - EU 'everyone' would mean 27 countries on the EU side, some of which may like the idea of a free trade deal with the UK but some others will have little to no interest in and in which all will be pissed off because they're actually experiencing the damage caused by a British vote to get out?

    The fantasy the Brexiteers have is not going to happen; it's going to be drawn out, it's going to be ugly and in the end it may all lead to nothing.
    Congratulations America

  17. #17
    Can the EU not negotiate trade agreements with single states? Seems to be happening with the United States as we speak, right?

    Or are you implying that the EU will be vindictive and bratty?

  18. #18
    Regardless of who's most to blame for the slow/stalled negotiations, the TTIP or something like it is likely to benefit both the US and the EU greatly. Does anyone believe such a treaty will not come about in the foreseeable future?

    Perhaps the UK and the US would eventually establish some form of bilateral free trade agreement as well but even if the US were to change its mind about the matter and put some effort into making such a deal with a single country, said deal would likely not be concluded before the current negotiations with the EU are. Brexit may even help the TTIP negotiations move forward, I dunno.

    Anyway, while Bloris may be right to criticise reactionary elements in the EU for stalling the negotiations, his implicit claim that the UK can get a better deal with the US sooner may not be accurate.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Can the EU not negotiate trade agreements with single states? Seems to be happening with the United States as we speak, right?

    Or are you implying that the EU will be vindictive and bratty?
    Even if the EU were frickin' saintly, it would be a pain in the ass. The EU does have FTA:s or more limited association agreements with individual nations but I can't think of a single European nation with such an FTA that isn't also a member of the EEA or EFTA (or otherwise a prospective member) with all the concessions that entails. The UK would either have to negotiate from a very weak position fighting uphill against resentful EU-members or first spend a lot of time and effort on strengthening its position.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Can the EU not negotiate trade agreements with single states? Seems to be happening with the United States as we speak, right?

    Or are you implying that the EU will be vindictive and bratty?
    The EU can only negotiate on the basis of a mandate.

    And no matter what you call it; no EU country will be willing to give the UK a better deal than what it gets itself.

    You may take a clue from the way the EU deals with Switzerland; once the Swiss made a decision that could only be acceptable for the EU as an organisation if it would be willing to screw over its own members, the EU stopped returning the calls of the Swiss government.
    Congratulations America

  21. #21
    I wonder if the UK would bother to enter FTA:s with countries seeking to join the EU. And, if so, if it would bother to place conditions such as improvements wrt enforcement of human rights etc.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  22. #22
    Free trade agreements are complicated and take years to sort out, especially ones as as comprehensive as EU.
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Free trade agreements are complicated and take years to sort out, especially ones as as comprehensive as EU.
    And that's in situations where one side doesn't come in feeling like it's been royally screwed over by the other side.
    Congratulations America

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    And that's in situations where one side doesn't come in feeling like it's been royally screwed over by the other side.
    Don't worry we will get over your attempts to screw us over for so long.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #25
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    Well, at least you won't feel the effect of your dropping currency on your vacation in Blackpool with the other little Englanders.
    Congratulations America

  26. #26
    Stop shitposting both of you
    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Well, at least you won't feel the effect of your dropping currency on your vacation in Blackpool with the other little Englanders.
    I generally holiday further abroad actually. In the last 12 months I've been to Canada, Iceland and Mexico - it may be news to you but the world extends beyond the EU.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Free trade agreements are complicated and take years to sort out, especially ones as as comprehensive as EU.
    Indeed you're right, but the advantage we have is that with the EU we are their biggest customer and they are bankrupt and unemployed and need a deal as much as we do, if not more.

    But at present we're restricted to a deal with 10% of the world's economic growth, by leaving we will unlock the potential to access the full potential of all 100%. I would rather 100% than 10%, wouldn't you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Don't worry we will get over your attempts to screw us over for so long.
    How long do you believe it will take for the EU and the UK to enter a free trade agreement and what do you believe that deal will look like?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Well, at least you won't feel the effect of your dropping currency on your vacation in Blackpool with the other little Englanders.
    I wish, staying out of the EU would give you a dropping currency, I really wish that.
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