Geopolitical impact of Brexit

[RandBlade]

May I point out that 'you' have let 'your' six year olds' vote you out of the EU? How smart exactly is your 'non-partisan' position working out so far?

Maybe if your six year olds weren't so desperately clinging to nurses bosom trying to get a new Europe to wipe out your history and protect you from the big bad world the EU would be worth staying in?

[Khendraja'aro]

You only*"invented television" if you're ignoring all the other people who made the whole thing possible in the first place: Braun, Nipkow, Stoletow, Perski (who actually coined the term, by the way), Dieckmann, Rosing, Ruhmer, Sworykin.

Photography? That was Joseph Nicéphore Niépce.

Radar?*Hertz and Hülsmeyer (both*Germans,*by the way).

WWW? Don't make me laugh.

[Hazir]

Read this. And re-read it.

And still can't parse it.

Let me spell it out; by acting as if you were part of the reasonable majority with no horse in the whole brexit debate you are as responsible for Brexit as the lunatics represented by Randblade. Your hopes for a reasonable outcome of the Brexit negotiations are just as ill founded as your conviction that the Brexiteers wouldn't have it. The so-called six-year olds in the playground are a thousand times more representative of the European reality today than your bleary eyed optimism. The anti-British emotions are EU wide and run deep. Nothing of the debates and court cases you now all of a sudden see as attempts to slow down or stop Brexit will have any meaning. The fact of the matter has become that after decades of trying to keep you on board we want to see you gone now. And we want to see you gone ASAP.

[Aimless]

I think you've misinterpreted Tim's position.

[RandBlade]

Let me spell it out; by acting as if you were part of the reasonable majority with no horse in the whole brexit debate you are as responsible for Brexit as the lunatics represented by Randblade. Your hopes for a reasonable outcome of the Brexit negotiations are just as ill founded as your conviction that the Brexiteers wouldn't have it. The so-called six-year olds in the playground are a thousand times more representative of the European reality today than your bleary eyed optimism. The anti-British emotions are EU wide and run deep. Nothing of the debates and court cases you now all of a sudden see as attempts to slow down or stop Brexit will have any meaning. The fact of the matter has become that after decades of trying to keep you on board we want to see you gone now. And we want to see you gone ASAP.

You've wanted us gone all along. You may represent the 6 year old Eurofanatical extremist wing but it's time for the grown ups to have a conversation.

[Timbuk2]

Let me spell it out; by acting as if you were part of the reasonable majority with no horse in the whole brexit debate you are as responsible for Brexit as the lunatics represented by Randblade. Your hopes for a reasonable outcome of the Brexit negotiations are just as ill founded as your conviction that the Brexiteers wouldn't have it. The so-called six-year olds in the playground are a thousand times more representative of the European reality today than your bleary eyed optimism. The anti-British emotions are EU wide and run deep. Nothing of the debates and court cases you now all of a sudden see as attempts to slow down or stop Brexit will have any meaning. The fact of the matter has become that after decades of trying to keep you on board we want to see you gone now. And we want to see you gone ASAP.

My 'six year olds in the playground' is nothing more than a comment on the childish name calling and petty ad hominems which seem to be cropping up on this thread, and nothing to do with people's stance in the wider Brexit debate. I would have thought that was obvious, particularly after I called out Rand on his 'your fuhrer' comment in the very same post. But never mind.

As for the rest of your post ... well ...

I think you've misinterpreted Tim's position.

... indeed you have, Hazir.

My position has always been that I do have a horse in the Brexit debate. I voted for remain. My view before the referendum was that the UK was better off in the EU, and that view has not changed now that the Brits are out the other side and charging headlong toward exit. My livelihood and continued presence in the UK have a considerable stake in the direction the negotiations take here. I made that clear in my Britain's financial sector reels after Brexit bombshell thread.

Indeed I don't post much on the subjct, in part because I don't have much detailed interest in politics nor economics beyond the general, and in part because I find the rabid partisanship and frothing-at-the-mouth patriotism silly and counterproductive, both on these boards in particular and in the wider media in general. I don't care for the tit-for-tat point scoring that this debate usually spirals into.

As for bleary-eyed optimism - you're right - I should just give up, resign from my job, hide under the duvet and spend my days moaning about what might have been had Cameron not called for this idiotic referendum in the first place.

[RandBlade]

On the topic of financial services, I repeat my hope from that thread that your livelihood is safe post-Brexit Tim. Best wishes.

[Hazir]

My 'six year olds in the playground' is nothing more than a comment on the childish name calling and petty ad hominems which seem to be cropping up on this thread, and nothing to do with people's stance in the wider Brexit debate. I would have thought that was obvious, particularly after I called out Rand on his 'your fuhrer' comment in the very same post. But never mind.

As for the rest of your post ... well ...



... indeed you have, Hazir.

My position has always been that I do have a horse in the Brexit debate. I voted for remain. My view before the referendum was that the UK was better off in the EU, and that view has not changed now that the Brits are out the other side and charging headlong toward exit. My livelihood and continued presence in the UK have a considerable stake in the direction the negotiations take here. I made that clear in my Britain's financial sector reels after Brexit bombshell thread.

Indeed I don't post much on the subjct, in part because I don't have much detailed interest in politics nor economics beyond the general, and in part because I find the rabid partisanship and frothing-at-the-mouth patriotism silly and counterproductive, both on these boards in particular and in the wider media in general. I don't care for the tit-for-tat point scoring that this debate usually spirals into.

As for bleary-eyed optimism - you're right - I should just give up, resign from my job, hide under the duvet and spend my days moaning about what might have been had Cameron not called for this idiotic referendum in the first place.

I don't misinterpret your position; it has been clear that you were not in favor of leaving the EU and that your interests are still in staying in the EU as much as you can. HOWEVER, consistently people like you have behaved as if it was merely an excentric fringe that was in favor of getting out and that kind of people have as consistently painted people like me like merely some other kind of crazy that you also didn't want to be associated with. The net result of that is that you and I, while having near identical ideas and interests no longer are on the same side of the divide. You let your crazies get away with harrassing the rest of us for decades, and you're still hardly taking them on.

When Randblade tells you he 'hopes' your job is safe, the true and honest reaction would be to tell him to go fuck himself with a pointy stick. Because he's the guy who sets fire to your house and tells you to have a good nights sleep. Still, you have the audacity to talk about 'six year olds in the sandbox'. If you would have gotten your hands a tiny bit more dirty in the same sand, maybe you would not have had to deal with Brexit as a reality rather than as an idea.

[Aimless]

Given how people react to exhortations from their political opponents to do pretty much anything that seems highly unlikely. Wrong enemy, Hazir.

[LittleFuzzy]

Wrong enemy, Hazir.

Nonsense. Timbuk is British isn't he?

[Hazir]

Given how people react to exhortations from their political opponents to do pretty much anything that seems highly unlikely. Wrong enemy, Hazir.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. My point was and remains that 'remainers' also have got to answer for the present situation. 17.000.000 voters didn't vote them out by accident.

[Hazir]

Nonsense. Timbuk is British isn't he?

Have fun with Mr Brexit in the White House. Your analysis of politics has been so consistently off the mark you should consider applying for a job there.

[RandBlade]

I don't misinterpret your position; it has been clear that you were not in favor of leaving the EU and that your interests are still in staying in the EU as much as you can. HOWEVER, consistently people like you have behaved as if it was merely an excentric fringe that was in favor of getting out and that kind of people have as consistently painted people like me like merely some other kind of crazy that you also didn't want to be associated with. The net result of that is that you and I, while having near identical ideas and interests no longer are on the same side of the divide. You let your crazies get away with harrassing the rest of us for decades, and you're still hardly taking them on.

When Randblade tells you he 'hopes' your job is safe, the true and honest reaction would be to tell him to go fuck himself with a pointy stick. Because he's the guy who sets fire to your house and tells you to have a good nights sleep. Still, you have the audacity to talk about 'six year olds in the sandbox'. If you would have gotten your hands a tiny bit more dirty in the same sand, maybe you would not have had to deal with Brexit as a reality rather than as an idea.

It's your attitude that helped push me from Remain to Leave. The idea you need to be rude is absurd. I can respect people that vote differently to me and I hope and expect Tim can too.

[Hazir]

It's your attitude that helped push me from Remain to Leave. The idea you need to be rude is absurd. I can respect people that vote differently to me and I hope and expect Tim can too.

Even if that were true it still paints you an idiot and a destructive one to boot. I think Tim understands very well who between us has done the damage to his work environment.

[Timbuk2]

I don't misinterpret your position; it has been clear that you were not in favor of leaving the EU and that your interests are still in staying in the EU as much as you can. HOWEVER, consistently people like you have behaved as if it was merely an excentric fringe that was in favor of getting out and that kind of people have as consistently painted people like me like merely some other kind of crazy that you also didn't want to be associated with. The net result of that is that you and I, while having near identical ideas and interests no longer are on the same side of the divide. You let your crazies get away with harrassing the rest of us for decades, and you're still hardly taking them on.

When Randblade tells you he 'hopes' your job is safe, the true and honest reaction would be to tell him to go fuck himself with a pointy stick. Because he's the guy who sets fire to your house and tells you to have a good nights sleep. Still, you have the audacity to talk about 'six year olds in the sandbox'. If you would have gotten your hands a tiny bit more dirty in the same sand, maybe you would not have had to deal with Brexit as a reality rather than as an idea.

Yes, it was perhaps unfortunate that the general attitude prior to the referendum was that there was a snowball's chance in hell of the UK leaving the EU. An eccentric fringe ? Yes, I would agree, that was the notion at the time. The reality is different, and that has been a slap in the face.

Your attitude is that I and people like me have stood back and let this happen. My response is, to a degree, perhaps. As above, this was absolutely not expected. Now that it has. What? Hindsight is 20/20 Hazir.

Should I have got 'my hands more dirty'? The referendum has been, to date, the only British political act in my lifetime which has angered me, and of which I feel may actually have direct ramifications for my life.

Regardless, my nature is not argumentative. It simply isn't. I know my self pretty well in the 43 years of being me. You may find that distasteful, that I should fight, I dunno, harder, for what I believe? My response is simply that in this Brexit debate I have come to terms with a few things. About this country in which I have come to live, where I have a home, a partner, a successful job. About my best friend, who voted for Brexit, and is an immigrant lawyer no less. About myself and my own beliefs, aspirations, hopes, fears. I have had arguments, hurtful ones.

That my nature is different to yours doesn't make me somehow lesser, Hazir. That I don't come on here or in other fora, or amongst peers and colleagues, shouting and ranting about Brexit. That is not me. I have said my piece, to those that matter to me. I know you want more from my like, that if the quieter shouted louder, things may be different. That's as may be.

I prefer to get on in my own way. I learn and move on. If there is one thing I've learnt from the Brits it is to have a stiff upper lip and to make the best of things.

Nonsense. Timbuk is British isn't he?

Multi-national parents, dual passports one of which is British, born in South Africa and brought up in largely expatriate communities in different countries around the globe, living mainly in the UK as an adult. I suppose over the years I have probably come think of myself as British more than anything else. National identity is not something terribly important to me I guess.

It's your attitude that helped push me from Remain to Leave. The idea you need to be rude is absurd. I can respect people that vote differently to me and I hope and expect Tim can too.

Indeed I do Rand.

[Hazir]

Yes, it was perhaps unfortunate that the general attitude prior to the referendum was that there was a snowball's chance in hell of the UK leaving the EU. An eccentric fringe ? Yes, I would agree, that was the notion at the time. The reality is different, and that has been a slap in the face.

Your attitude is that I and people like me have stood back and let this happen. My response is, to a degree, perhaps. As above, this was absolutely not expected. Now that it has. What? Hindsight is 20/20 Hazir.

Should I have got 'my hands more dirty'? The referendum has been, to date, the only British political act in my lifetime which has angered me, and of which I feel may actually have direct ramifications for my life.

Regardless, my nature is not argumentative. It simply isn't. I know my self pretty well in the 43 years of being me. You may find that distasteful, that I should fight, I dunno, harder, for what I believe? My response is simply that in this Brexit debate I have come to terms with a few things. About this country in which I have come to live, where I have a home, a partner, a successful job. About my best friend, who voted for Brexit, and is an immigrant lawyer no less. About myself and my own beliefs, aspirations, hopes, fears. I have had arguments, hurtful ones.

That my nature is different to yours doesn't make me somehow lesser, Hazir. That I don't come on here or in other fora, or amongst peers and colleagues, shouting and ranting about Brexit. That is not me. I have said my piece, to those that matter to me. I know you want more from my like, that if the quieter shouted louder, things may be different. That's as may be.

I prefer to get on in my own way. I learn and move on. If there is one thing I've learnt from the Brits it is to have a stiff upper lip and to make the best of things.

This reaction is exactly why I flipped a couple of years ago from feeling we should keep the UK in the EU to that we would be better off without you altogether. The simple fact that people like you, the main stream of the voters in the UK were first of all not even trying to put up a fight, then started validating the message of the euro-haters by apologizing for every pro-EU message you might have had. Brexit didn't happen on the 23rd of june last year. It happened in the many years that you were part of a British society that turned the EU from a project for a better future into a 'problem that needed to be fixed' because people like Randblade who said they wanted to fix it, but really just destroy it said there was a problem to be fixed. It was on full display for all of us to see in the way your leading politicians operated in the European arena. Even the so-called pro-European Blair never managed to ever actually show any of his supposed enthousiasm in anything that really mattered.

Part of the problem with the Constitution was that mostly due to the hysteria in the UK the most obvious next step for the EU was never even considered. The way your PM signed the subsequent Lisbon Treaty was a disgrace. Your previous PM took the government of your country out of the center of power in a deliberate move to appease people who wanted your country out of the EU.

The signs that your side was losing were there for at least the entire 21st century. So I am appaled that you now say that hindsight is 20/20 and that you couldn't have known this would be the outcome when it was clear to me that this could very well be the outcome given how poisened the entirety of your electorate had become over the years. It also takes an incredible amount of chutzpah to lay the blame at my feet for you never putting up a fight and losing your battle. Because it bloody well was your battle from the beginning.

The main thing we learn in perfect 20/20 hindsight is that you and 'your kind of people' are bunch of wet blankets not being able or willing to stand up for their principles. And soon we'll see how much good your stiff upper lip will do you.

[Aimless]

[Hazir]

The funny thing is that I let go years ago. Roughly around when I posted in reply to Randblade that I wanted them to have their bloody referendum and get the fuck out. These days I typically make snide remarks from the side, nothing of this gets my bloodpressure of its otherwise very healthy marks.

Getting blamed for Brexit is a bit flummoxing though. Or should I say flattering?

[RandBlade]

Your attitude is that I and people like me have stood back and let this happen. My response is, to a degree, perhaps. As above, this was absolutely not expected. Now that it has. What? Hindsight is 20/20 Hazir.

Should I have got 'my hands more dirty'? The referendum has been, to date, the only British political act in my lifetime which has angered me, and of which I feel may actually have direct ramifications for my life.

Besides what exactly should have been done to get "hands more dirty"? I believe from memory you're London-based and London voted by 60% to Remain anyway - and even more overwhelmingly in Inner London. Though Outer London was more like the rest of the nation than Inner London.

The issue is the rest of the nation, especially in the north and Wales, that voted to Leave. Not sure what you were supposed to do about that?

The problem is politically that outside London and Scotland the left-wing socialists voted Remain and that the centre-right voted Leave. In this country currently there are more on the centre-right than there are socialists so Leave won even with London and Scotland.

An ICM/Guardian survey earlier this week reported: Con 42, Lab 27, LD 10, UKIP 12, SNP 5 and Green 4. But if you split it into Remain and Leave voters it shows two completely different countries. Leave voters split Con 52, Lab 15, LD 5, UKIP 21, SNP 5 and Green 2. Remain voters split Con 34, Lab 36, LD 15, UKIP 2, SNP 5 and Green 6.

That Remain voters go by a plurality for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party kind of shows why Leave won - that is completely out of touch with the mainstream of the nation. Interesting that despite Scotland being dominated by Remain the SNP vote for both sets of voters is the same.

[Khendraja'aro]

Rand, a mere 50% is only mainstream if the other 50% are also mainstream.

That's what you're forgetting here: Your referendum showed that you're*split down the middle. And a country usually has quite a bit of a problem if such a huge percentage of people is left disenfanchised.

But, please, try to downplay the numbers again.

[RandBlade]

The country is split down the middle overall but with a heavy weighting towards London and Scotland for Remain what is left in the rest of the nation for Remain is often the batshit crazy who actually think Jeremy Corbyn would make a good Prime Minister. Remain didn't quite get 50% nationwide and outside the M25 and Scotland it certainly didn't because mainstream centre to centre-right voters like myself were unconvinced by Project Fear and the lack of any positive case for Remaining. Leaving Remain fishing with the scared and starry eyed left wing ideologues.

[gogobongopop]

My position has always been that I do have a horse in the Brexit debate. I voted for remain. My view before the referendum was that the UK was better off in the EU, and that view has not changed now that the Brits are out the other side and charging headlong toward exit. My livelihood and continued presence in the UK have a considerable stake in the direction the negotiations take here. I made that clear in my Britain's financial sector reels after Brexit bombshell thread.

Indeed I don't post much on the subjct, in part because I don't have much detailed interest in politics nor economics beyond the general, and in part because I find the rabid partisanship and frothing-at-the-mouth patriotism silly and counterproductive, both on these boards in particular and in the wider media in general. I don't care for the tit-for-tat point scoring that this debate usually spirals into.

Well said!

[Loki]

The country is split down the middle overall but with a heavy weighting towards London and Scotland for Remain what is left in the rest of the nation for Remain is often the batshit crazy who actually think Jeremy Corbyn would make a good Prime Minister. Remain didn't quite get 50% nationwide and outside the M25 and Scotland it certainly didn't because mainstream centre to centre-right voters like myself were unconvinced by Project Fear and the lack of any positive case for Remaining. Leaving Remain fishing with the scared and starry eyed left wing ideologues.

You're missing the part where all the batshit crazy racists voted Leave. But that's an inconvenient fact for someone who prefers to condemn the other side's experts than your side's extremists.

[RandBlade]

Quite happy to condemn them but they're not the mainstream. Not just a plurality but a 52% majority of Leavers are plumping for the government. Whereas the plurality of Remainers go for the lunatic.

The batshit crazy racists make up no more than 21% of Leave's vote [counting all of UKIP as batshit crazy racists]

The batshit crazy socialists make up 42% of Remain's vote [counting all of Corbyn's Labour and the Greens 6% too as batshit crazy socialists]

[Timbuk2]

to stand up for their principles.

Standing up for my principles was going out and voting on the day.

That that is not good enough for you has to be your loss.

My conscience is clear.

Well said!

We have a bongopop!

You've been missed.

[LittleFuzzy]

Multi-national parents, dual passports one of which is British, born in South Africa and brought up in largely expatriate communities in different countries around the globe, living mainly in the UK as an adult. I suppose over the years I have probably come think of myself as British more than anything else. National identity is not something terribly important to me I guess.

Close enough to trigger his Anglophobia.

[RandBlade]

Standing up for my principles was going out and voting on the day.

That that is not good enough for you has to be your loss.

My conscience is clear.

Well said

Good to see you gogo, please post more often

[Khendraja'aro]

The country is split down the middle overall but with a heavy weighting towards London and Scotland for Remain what is left in the rest of the nation for Remain is often the batshit crazy who actually think Jeremy Corbyn would make a good Prime Minister. Remain didn't quite get 50% nationwide and outside the M25 and Scotland it certainly didn't because mainstream centre to centre-right voters like myself were unconvinced by Project Fear and the lack of any positive case for Remaining. Leaving Remain fishing with the scared and starry eyed left wing ideologues.

And Brexit fishing for the crazy racist hatespewers. Let's not forget about those now.

[Hazir]

Well said!

Well good luck to you too. At least we soon won't be living in a union with your crazy other half. Maybe I should thank you for your lack of conviction.

[Hazir]

Standing up for my principles was going out and voting on the day.

That that is not good enough for you has to be your loss.

My conscience is clear.


We have a bongopop!

You've been missed.

Oh but it was good enough for me. I wanted you out and you delivered.