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Thread: Who is Responsible?

  1. #1
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    Default Who is Responsible?

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/01...?intcmp=hplnws


    "But the court, in a strongly worded decision, said the grand jury heard evidence suggesting that Carter engaged in a "systematic campaign of coercion" that targeted Roy's insecurities and that her instruction to "get back in" his truck in the final moments of his life was a "direct, causal link" to his death.

    "In sum, we conclude that there was probable cause to show that the coercive quality of the defendant's verbal conduct overwhelmed whatever willpower the eighteen year old victim had to cope with his depression, and that but for the defendant's admonishments, pressure, and instructions, the victim would not have gotten back into the truck and poisoned himself to death," Justice Robert Cordy wrote for the court in the unanimous, 7-0 ruling.

    The case drew national attention after transcripts of text messages Carter sent to Roy were released publicly, showing her urging him to follow through on his plan to kill himself and chastising him when he expressed doubts.

    "I thought you wanted to do this. The time is right and you're ready, you just need to do it!" Carter wrote in one message."

    Well first off, she's a really fucked up individual. However... I'm not sure society should be making her actions criminal, unless the guy was mentally unstable enough not to be to make his own decisions. (Which I don't think is the case here).

    Suicide is something that is 100% the responsibility of the person making the decision. It is interesting that we are at the point in society where doctor assisted suicide is a thing and something like this also happens. Is the doctor responsible for the patient's choice? Again, unless someone is not mentally fit to make their own decisions I would say no just like in this case. (Though I do think the right to die campaign is pretty silly, it is NOT difficult to off yourself. Failed true suicide attempts are actually quite rare, normally it is just done to call attention to themselves.)

    Too often society likes to find someone to blame for something like this happen. Weather its the 'phobia of the month' or 'cyber bullying' or whatever bit of activism appeals to you, the bottom line is that people who kill themselves are 100% responsible for it.

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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Glad they arrived at a guilty verdict though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Glad they arrived at a guilty verdict though.
    No it is just allowing the trial to go forward.

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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Ah, hope they arrive at a guilty verdict in that case.
    Last edited by Aimless; 07-01-2016 at 09:58 PM.
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  7. #7
    This crazy lady went above and beyond to destroy the mental well being of this guy. He even attempted to back out of the suicide and she convinced him to get back in his poisoned truck.

    More bits:

    CONRAD ROY: How was your day?
    MICHELLE CARTER: When are you doing it?
    CONRAD: Since you don’t get your snapchat anymore, I sent them to you.
    CARTER: (Smiley face) My day was okay. How was yours?
    CONRAD: Good.
    CARTER: Really?
    CONRAD: Yes.
    CARTER: That’s great. What did you do?
    CONRAD: Ended up going to work for a little bit and then just looked stuff up.
    CARTER: When are you gonna do it? Stop ignoring the question



    "You're finally going to be happy in heaven. No more pain. It's okay to be scared and it's normal. I mean, you're about to die," Carter wrote in one message.
    Her texts later became more insistent after Roy appeared to delay his plan.
    "I thought you wanted to do this. The time is right and you're ready __ just do it babe," she wrote.
    In another text sent the day Roy died, Carter wrote: "You can't think about it. You just have to do it. You said you were gonna do it. Like I don't get why you aren't."
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

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    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    I'm not going to say she wasn't guilty but I am uncertain as to how well this is an application of the Massachusetts statutes. If Massachusetts has some variety of what is called "depraved indifference murder" then the verdict is fine. I do firmly believe she did engage in some criminal conduct (like reckless endangerment) even if this particular verdict is thin.
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  9. #9
    The ACLU is making this into a free speech thing, but I have to say even I find that a stretch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    The ACLU is making this into a free speech thing, but I have to say even I find that a stretch.
    The question is this: Was this guy of sound mind and body? (However reasonable people wish to define it, none of this 'if you kill yourself you are by definition crazy.) If so and he was not coerced with threats of violence to himself or his family I don't see the act as being illegal. I think she's an awful and terrible person but I don't like laws that go after speech this broadly. The guy chose to kill himself. She didn't make him do it, to imply that she forced him to do it via text in this manner is to deny free will. If you deny free will what if the next text message is to go do a crime, is the person no longer culpable because text message by girls they like invalidate free will? This is very binary to me, either the person is in control of their actions or they are not.

    If this guy was retard levels of IQ and mentally unstable I think we should throw the book at her. Just like we should throw the book at someone encouraging a mentally ill person to do a crime and the mentally ill person does it. But if that's not the case this doesn't seem an appropriate verdict.

  11. #11
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    The question is this: Was this guy of sound mind and body? (However reasonable people wish to define it, none of this 'if you kill yourself you are by definition crazy.) If so and he was not coerced with threats of violence to himself or his family I don't see the act as being illegal. I think she's an awful and terrible person but I don't like laws that go after speech this broadly. The guy chose to kill himself. She didn't make him do it, to imply that she forced him to do it via text in this manner is to deny free will.
    Lewk, you realize she was convicted of involuntary manslaughter, right? That means all your free will crap goes out the window. Yes, his actions mattered, so it wasn't solely about her. But her actions materially contributed, the reckless endangerment was so extreme that it rose to providing criminal culpability in his actions.

    If you deny free will what if the next text message is to go do a crime, is the person no longer culpable because text message by girls they like invalidate free will?
    Culpability can lay with more than one person. That's why you celebrate every felony murder conviction, remember? You know, I actually remember talking to you about how the way you were championing the use of felony-murder could practically be used to convict people for acts of suicide. Maybe you shouldn't have laughed at me and insisted so very strongly on getting your way back then.

    This is very binary to me, either the person is in control of their actions or they are not.
    Well that's plainly not true or you wouldn't be so gleeful about felony-murder in the first place. You should just be happy that she's not being sentence as if she'd committed first-degree murder, as fits the standard you pronounce anytime you're talking about a lower-class or black criminal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Lewk, you realize she was convicted of involuntary manslaughter, right? That means all your free will crap goes out the window. Yes, his actions mattered, so it wasn't solely about her. But her actions materially contributed, the reckless endangerment was so extreme that it rose to providing criminal culpability in his actions.
    Actually it doesn't. Free will is still free will, if he made the choice of sound mind and body no one else is responsible but him.

    Now as far as 'felony murder' is concerned. I actually don't support it because I think it is justice. Logically it really isn't but since I think people who commit violent felonies are A-OK to be killed by society or imprisoned for life I'm cool with it.

  13. #13
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    She did commit a felony and it did involve violence. But you object to her being imprisoned even though it doesn't involve any stretch of justice like felony-murder. While you're A-OK with people who don't commit violence or felonies, like those who are trespassing and have one of their own shot, being killed or imprisoned for life via felony-murder which you did just say was a stretch of justice. Your words do not match your actions, as I mention in the other thread.
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  14. #14
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Free will doesn't exclude other people being culpable too, why on earth would you think that? If I convince you to murder someone you are guilty of murder, but I'll be guilty of conspiracy (or something like that, IANAL).
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Free will doesn't exclude other people being culpable too, why on earth would you think that? If I convince you to murder someone you are guilty of murder, but I'll be guilty of conspiracy (or something like that, IANAL).
    Sure but that's because you would have helped kill a third party. The person harmed was the person who chose to take their own life. It is a slippery slope from this ruling to other actions that could lead to suicide bringing about criminal charges. Spousal infidelity, 'hurtful words on-line', job loss, etc.

  16. #16
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    That slope isn't particularly slippery.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    That slope isn't particularly slippery.
    Doesn't it rest on the assumption that you are aware of the likely effect of your words and willingly bring that effect come about?

    I have no doubt that it's entirely possible to talk people to the point where they will harm and kill themselves. Not everybody will be aware that this is what they are doing; they may only understand it once the result is visible.
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    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Doesn't it rest on the assumption that you are aware of the likely effect of your words and willingly bring that effect come about?

    I have no doubt that it's entirely possible to talk people to the point where they will harm and kill themselves. Not everybody will be aware that this is what they are doing; they may only understand it once the result is visible.
    Hence involuntary manslaughter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Hence involuntary manslaughter.
    See Aimless? This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

  20. #20
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    See Aimless? This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.
    Lewk, do you actually understand what that charge is and means? It's for killing that isn't directly in your hands except that you created the conditions causing it by criminally reckless and/or negligent actions on your part (or from unlawful acts that are misdemeanors or low-level felonies).

    Lewk, will you concede that ordering someone to go back into a car full of toxic smoke to die constitutes reckless endangerment?
    Reckless endangerment: Reckless endangerment is a crime consisting of acts that create a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person. The accused person isn't required to intend the resulting or potential harm, but must have acted in a way that showed a disregard for the foreseeable consequences of the actions.
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  21. #21
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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