"Dye your hair"

[Lewkowski]

How about the hypocrisy of certain feminists that all men are rapists, but then look the other way when it's a case of a minority?

We are being divided up into camps and it's not just by those on the right.

Or how the left attempts to bury stories of black college students accused of rape but makes it front page news when its a while college student accused of rape. I do think the vast majority of self identified feminists don't consider 'all men rapists' but they do like to drone on about 'male privilege.' Though what isn't privilege these days? They even argue among themselves on who is more opressed.

The Oppression Olympics is in full swing on the left as they try to out 'victimize' each other. 'No I'm the bigger victim you cisgendered whittie, you may be a woman but I'm a Hispanic disabled otherkin!'

[Steely Glint]

I think this is a particularly crude line of reasoning. Your position seems to be that if someone isn't protesting something, or you haven't seen them speak out against it, that they either don't care or are supportive of that behavior.

If you're a white supremacist group and you don't say or do a damn thing about rape or sexual assault until it's white girls and women being abused by brown people and suddenly you're organizing mass protests and generally ranting about "aha! feminists don't want to talk about this one" then what the hell is anyone else supposed to think?

It's like the think we're stupid.

[RandBlade]

That they're using the problem of abuse to further their own pre-existing agenda.

Doesn't mean they either don't care about abuse.

[Enoch the Red]

If you're a white supremacist group and you don't say or do a damn thing about rape or sexual assault until it's white girls and women being abused by brown people and suddenly you're organizing mass protests and generally ranting about "aha! feminists don't want to talk about this one" then what the hell is anyone else supposed to think?

It's like the think we're stupid.

Probably the same thing that we're supposed to think when Black Lives Matters advocates don't talk about black lives mattering when looking at black on black crime, something that impacts a much larger percentage of the community than officer involved shootings.

I'm guessing what that is is probably tinted by how we view the group generally, and favorable and unfavorable justifications could be found one way or the other.

[Lewkowski]

Probably the same thing that we're supposed to think when Black Lives Matters advocates don't talk about black lives mattering when looking at black on black crime, something that impacts a much larger percentage of the community than officer involved shootings.

I'm guessing what exactly that is probably tinted by how we view the group generally.

Shhhh, liberals don't like to talk about that.

[Aimless]

Probably the same thing that we're supposed to think when Black Lives Matters advocates don't talk about black lives mattering when looking at black on black crime, something that impacts a much larger percentage of the community than officer involved shootings.

First of all I'd have to question the premise:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...olence/255329/

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...otherwise.html

I guess it's possible that all those people died before the BLM movement got started but I think it's more likely that there's significant overlap between BLM supporters and those who have previously marched to call attention to important community problems, of which racism in the justice system is one.

Secondly, the issue with racism in the justice system, esp. among police, is important also to the matter of "black on black" crime. Black people have become increasingly disillusioned with the justice system and increasingly afraid of or reluctant to turn to the police for help when they are victimized. Black communities are often underserved by police who are enthusiastic about enforcing trivial issues and harrassing innocent people while being less enthusiastic about solving major crimes. The way American police have treated members of black communities for many decades has not only encouraged crime but also made it less likely for black people to get justice.

Thirdly, "black on black crime" is kind of a weird term. Most victims of crime, esp. violent or otherwise major crimes, are victimized by members of their own community, often someone they know, and in the vast majority of murders the perpetrator and the victim belong to the same "race". This would be the equivalent of the vast majority of rapes not being committed by immigrant minorities against the white majority population.

Finally, while "black on black crime" is important due to sheer volume (among other things), police mistreatment of black people is more important for other reasons. I don't know about you but I want to be able to hold the police officers that are supposed to protect me and my community to higher standards than we can hold criminals. I don't want to be harrassed or otherwise victimized--or harmed, even killed--by the police when I need their help. Police douchebaggery undermines people's trust for the justice system, undermines the ability and willingness for citizens and police to cooperate in order to solve social problems such as crime and it has a huge impact on some people's sense of safety because the only instance they can turn to for help is one that might end up killing them.

[Enoch the Red]

I think while this is generally tangential, and in parts supporting outright the real crux of my argument, I still think it's interesting so I am willing to play ball.

First of all I'd have to question the premise:

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...olence/255329/

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a...otherwise.html

I guess it's possible that all those people died before the BLM movement got started but I think it's more likely that there's significant overlap between BLM supporters and those who have previously marched to call attention to important community problems, of which racism in the justice system is one.

Secondly, the issue with racism in the justice system, esp. among police, is important also to the matter of "black on black" crime. Black people have become increasingly disillusioned with the justice system and increasingly afraid of or reluctant to turn to the police for help when they are victimized. Black communities are often underserved by police who are enthusiastic about enforcing trivial issues and harrassing innocent people while being less enthusiastic about solving major crimes. The way American police have treated members of black communities for many decades has not only encouraged crime but also made it less likely for black people to get justice.

The scale and number of the BLM protests is not even remotely comparable.

I also think it is incredibly condescending and intellectually lazy to lay the problems with violence and crime at the feet of the police. While it may play better to blame another group for your problems, it also absolves individuals and communities of autonomy and responsibility, and likewise removes their locus of control.

Unless you somehow believe institutional racism and policing alone is responsible for the difference in homicide rates.

Thirdly, "black on black crime" is kind of a weird term. Most victims of crime, esp. violent or otherwise major crimes, are victimized by members of their own community, often someone they know, and in the vast majority of murders the perpetrator and the victim belong to the same "race". This would be the equivalent of the vast majority of rapes not being committed by immigrant minorities against the white majority population.

This, while broadly true, ignores two salient facts. One, while it is true that crimes are most often committed by a member of the same race, there is still around a ten percent difference between homicide rates between whites killing whites (84%) and blacks killing blacks (93%). Two, the homicide victimization rate is six times higher for blacks than it is for whites.

Finally, while "black on black crime" is important due to sheer volume (among other things), police mistreatment of black people is more important for other reasons. I don't know about you but I want to be able to hold the police officers that are supposed to protect me and my community to higher standards than we can hold criminals. I don't want to be harrassed or otherwise victimized--or harmed, even killed--by the police when I need their help. Police douchebaggery undermines people's trust for the justice system, undermines the ability and willingness for citizens and police to cooperate in order to solve social problems such as crime and it has a huge impact on some people's sense of safety because the only instance they can turn to for help is one that might end up killing them.

I have argued the same on this board before.

Perhaps a more representative slogan would be, "Black Justice Matters."

[Steely Glint]

Probably the same thing that we're supposed to think when Black Lives Matters advocates don't talk about black lives mattering when looking at black on black crime, something that impacts a much larger percentage of the community than officer involved shootings.

I'm guessing what that is is probably tinted by how we view the group generally, and favorable and unfavorable justifications could be found one way or the other.

Who are these unreasonable, entitled motherfuckers who think that the police shout stop killing them for no reason before the problem of violence in black communities has been completely solved?

[Aimless]

The scale and number of the BLM protests is not even remotely comparable.

Which is to be expected. This is a movement with a lot of inertia that's being sustained by repeated killings, it's more organized and most importantly it's about an issue that affects all black people in a discriminatory way.

I also think it is incredibly condescending and intellectually lazy to lay the problems with violence and crime at the feet of the police. While it may play better to blame another group for your problems, it also absolves individuals and communities of autonomy and responsibility, and likewise removes their locus of control.

Unless you somehow believe institutional racism and policing alone is responsible for the difference in homicide rates.

Institutional racism and discriminatory police douchebaggery contribute not only to disparities in crime-rates but also to a host of other problems afflicting black communities.

The most important factors influencing crime-rates are things like family situation, socioeconomic status, educational attainment, trust in social institutions and getting into trouble with the law, all of which are influenced by discriminatory policing.

Discriminatory policies and policing have contributed to breaking up many black families. Moreover, discriminatory implementation of counter-productive policing strategies such as hassling black people for minor offenses that probably should not be offenses in the first place (eg. curfew laws) contribute to poverty as well as fostering resentment towards police which--along with disillusionment caused by unjust policing (eg. harrassment, unjustified profiling, under-policing when it comes to major crimes) and fear caused by police's fondness for using excessive force esp. against black people--discourage communities from cooperating with (or even respecting) law-enforcement. Meanwhile, because schools are more inclined to turn to the police to discipline black kids, and the justice system is more inclined to punish black schoolkids harshly, black kids are more likely to end up as criminals.

Poverty in the US is often self-sustaining so you don't exactly need to help it along by systematically discriminating against black people in every other area of productive human activity as well, which you unfortunately kinda do.

This, while broadly true, ignores two salient facts. One, while it is true that crimes are most often committed by a member of the same race, there is still around a ten percent difference between homicide rates between whites killing whites (84%) and blacks killing blacks (93%).

This wouldn't be surprising if it were true because black people are more likely to live in mostly- (or all-) black communities with great socioeconomic problems.

However, the claim is poorly substantiated. The dataset is deficient. It relies on voluntary participation and the data it contains is incomplete. The percentages you cite are imputed from that incomplete data. However, if you look at the dataset yourself you'll see that the killer's race is listed as "unknown" in very many cases and also that the database doesn't adequately deal with Hispanics (iirc they are often listed as "white").

You can try to corroborate the numbers yourself, here:

http://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/ezashr..._selection.asp

Two, the homicide victimization rate is six times higher for blacks than it is for whites.

Also not surprising given the huge socioeconomic disparities between black and white communities (potentially modifiable to some extent) as well as the substantial differences between the age-structures of black and white populations in the US (not modifiable).

I have argued the same on this board before.

Perhaps a more representative slogan would be, "Black Justice Matters."

Perhaps, but there might not be much point to changing a working brand.

[Enoch the Red]

Institutional racism and discriminatory police douchebaggery contribute not only to disparities in crime-rates but also to a host of other problems afflicting black communities.

The most important factors influencing crime-rates are things like family situation, socioeconomic status, educational attainment, trust in social institutions and getting into trouble with the law, all of which are influenced by discriminatory policing.

Discriminatory policies and policing have contributed to breaking up many black families. Moreover, discriminatory implementation of counter-productive policing strategies such as hassling black people for minor offenses that probably should not be offenses in the first place (eg. curfew laws) contribute to poverty as well as fostering resentment towards police which--along with disillusionment caused by unjust policing (eg. harrassment, unjustified profiling, under-policing when it comes to major crimes) and fear caused by police's fondness for using excessive force esp. against black people--discourage communities from cooperating with (or even respecting) law-enforcement. Meanwhile, because schools are more inclined to turn to the police to discipline black kids, and the justice system is more inclined to punish black schoolkids harshly, black kids are more likely to end up as criminals.

Poverty in the US is often self-sustaining so you don't exactly need to help it along by systematically discriminating against black people in every other area of productive human activity as well, which you unfortunately kinda do.

It is important to distinguish between a contributing factor and a cause. It may be accurate to say that policing strategies in some areas have been a contributing factor to impacting the family situation, socioeconomic statuses, educational attainment, and trust in social institutions of African Americans, but I have seen no evidence showing it to rise to even the level of a proximate cause. To address those inequities as very real, very important issues should go without saying. To say that were it not for discriminatory policing that there are no other contributing factors for the community to address is beyond myopic.

This wouldn't be surprising if it were true because black people are more likely to live in mostly- (or all-) black communities with great socioeconomic problems.

However, the claim is poorly substantiated. The dataset is deficient. It relies on voluntary participation and the data it contains is incomplete. The percentages you cite are imputed from that incomplete data. However, if you look at the dataset yourself you'll see that the killer's race is listed as "unknown" in very many cases and also that the database doesn't adequately deal with Hispanics (iirc they are often listed as "white").

You can try to corroborate the numbers yourself, here:

http://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/ezashr..._selection.asp

That is true of most any large scale data set in social sciences. Saying that it is invalid or poorly substantiated because the data is incomplete or that numbers are imputed from other data would mean throwing out the baby with the bath water. If there is a specific flaw in their methodology, I'm open to hearing it.

Also not surprising given the huge socioeconomic disparities between black and white communities (potentially modifiable to some extent) as well as the substantial differences between the age-structures of black and white populations in the US (not modifiable).

Hispanics/Latinos make up a larger percentage of the population than African Americans, and have a comparable median income. Native Americans make up a smaller percentage of the population, but have a similar median income. Yet we don't see a corresponding rate of homicides. Even if we were to sum homicides by all races, including the cases where the race of the victim was unknown, you would still see a smaller number of homicides than what is confronting the black community.

I think there are any number of simplistic equivocations that can be made about the possible reasons for this, but at the end of the day blaming police, economics, and age-structures for the sheer number of lives lost seems somehow hollow. The police didn't pull the triggers in the vast, vast, vast majority of these homicides, nor are white supremacists to blame for the thousands of dead young black men every year. Other races facing similar biases and median socioeconomic statuses aren't killing each other at the same rate. I can think of a contributing factor that I have yet to see you explore or acknowledge, and that is the cultural differences between these groups. Which is not to say there is a single monolithic culture across any group, but culture happens to be an area that an impacted community can address - an area where they have the power to make a change.

[Aimless]

It is important to distinguish between a contributing factor and a cause. It may be accurate to say that policing strategies in some areas have been a contributing factor to impacting the family situation, socioeconomic statuses, educational attainment, and trust in social institutions of African Americans, but I have seen no evidence showing it to rise to even the level of a proximate cause. To address those inequities as very real, very important issues should go without saying. To say that were it not for discriminatory policing that there are no other contributing factors for the community to address is beyond myopic.

I can think of a contributing factor that I have yet to see you explore or acknowledge, and that is the cultural differences between these groups. Which is not to say there is a single monolithic culture across any group, but culture happens to be an area that an impacted community can address - an area where they have the power to make a change.

Culture isn't created in a vaccuum entirely from within a community, and no one said that there are "no other contributing factors".

If you're saying that you have seen no evidence of the impact of discriminatory policing and policy--as well as discrimination in all levels of the education system and in the workplace--on black people's family situation, finances, educational attainment, chances of employment, risk of living in poverty etc, I really don't know what to say to you. Perhaps we're living in different universes. Of course, I imagine that even in your universe one of the most important proximal causes of black deaths is the ease with which Americans can access guns, so perhaps we can work on that instead of addressing root causes.

That is true of most any large scale data set in social sciences. Saying that it is invalid or poorly substantiated because the data is incomplete or that numbers are imputed from other data would mean throwing out the baby with the bath water.

I'm not saying you should throw the baby out with the bath-water. I'm saying two different things:

1. You should examine your evidence more closely. In the time period described in that report, almost equal proportions (ca 61%) of black and white homicide victims were known to have been killed by someone of the same race. Around 28% of white victims and 34% of black victims were killed by someone where the race was reported as unknown or not reported. During that time crime trends changed a great deal in the US. Between 2010-2014, when the data can be assumed to be both less heterogenous and of better quality, 63.3% of white victims and 54% of black victims were known to have been killed by someone of the same race. You cannot confidently say that black people are 10% more likely to be killed by another black person than a white person is to be killed by another white person.

2. Even if there is a disparity of the kind and magnitude you describe, it wouldn't be surprising because black people are more likely to live in almost all-black communities.

Hispanics/Latinos make up a larger percentage of the population than African Americans, and have a comparable median income.

They don't. In 2014, median household income for hispanic households was about 20% higher than the median household income for black households. I guess you might call that "comparable" but when you compare them the difference is very clear. I haven't looked into differences in living costs due to differences in geographical distribution. Black households are also more likely to be below the poverty threshold and black kids are more likely to be below the poverty threshold, without taking into account the depth of poverty (ie. how far below the poverty threshold they are).

Native Americans make up a smaller percentage of the population, but have a similar median income.

Again, they don't. The difference is not as great as that between black and hispanic households but they too make more than black households. I don't know if they mostly live in areas with comparatively low living costs. Afaict they are less likely to live in troubled urban areas anyway but I haven't checked.

Yet we don't see a corresponding rate of homicides. Even if we were to sum homicides by all races, including the cases where the race of the victim was unknown, you would still see a smaller number of homicides than what is confronting the black community.

I'd be interested to see where you learned that because hispanics are not well accounted for in the largest datasets so I don't have good information on homicide victimization rates for them. I do know however that there are large differences wrt age between black, white and hispanic populations in the US.

I think there are any number of simplistic equivocations that can be made about the possible reasons for this, but at the end of the day blaming police, economics, and age-structures for the sheer number of lives lost seems somehow hollow. The police didn't pull the triggers in the vast, vast, vast majority of these homicides, nor are white supremacists to blame for the thousands of dead young black men every year. Other races facing similar biases and median socioeconomic statuses aren't killing each other at the same rate.

This seems pretty myopic.

[Enoch the Red]

Culture isn't created in a vaccuum entirely from within a community, and no one said that there are "no other contributing factors".

If you're saying that you have seen no evidence of the impact of discriminatory policing and policy--as well as discrimination in all levels of the education system and in the workplace--on black people's family situation, finances, educational attainment, chances of employment, risk of living in poverty etc, I really don't know what to say to you. Perhaps we're living in different universes.

I'm not sure how you can draw that conclusion from what I've posted. Especially when you quoted me as saying, "To address those inequities as very real, very important issues should go without saying."

If you are trying to argue that the government's bewildering war on drugs has caused enormous damage to communities, as I have, I couldn't agree more. If you are saying that the justice system has torn families apart for non-violent and victimless crimes I am there with you. If you are saying that stopping and frisking a young black man causes him to shoot another young black man you've lost me.

However, even accepting your premise, black Americans are hardly the only ones to face discrimination, by society or the police. Hispanics, Native Americans, and Asians have all faced, and still face discrimination. However, from these groups we have not seen the same tragic number of accompanying homicides that has confronted black Americans.

They don't. In 2014, median household income for hispanic households was about 20% higher than the median household income for black households. I guess you might call that "comparable" but when you compare them the difference is very clear. I haven't looked into differences in living costs due to differences in geographical distribution. Black households are also more likely to be below the poverty threshold and black kids are more likely to be below the poverty threshold, without taking into account the depth of poverty (ie. how far below the poverty threshold they are).

Again, they don't. The difference is not as great as that between black and hispanic households but they too make more than black households. I don't know if they mostly live in areas with comparatively low living costs. Afaict they are less likely to live in troubled urban areas anyway but I haven't checked.

It is more informative to break it down by more than just a snapshot in time. In 1995 the difference in median income was $594.00, or a difference of about 2% between Hispanic origin and Black households. The per capita homicide rate was still many times higher for blacks than other races, and black homicides comprised 48% of all homicides in the country. The difference in median income between the two groups has grown and changed, to be sure, but black Americans have consistently accounted for about half the homicides in this country, (averaging about 47% since 1980).

The median income, and the income gap has changed, the percentage of black homicide victims has not.

I'd be interested to see where you learned that because hispanics are not well accounted for in the largest datasets so I don't have good information on homicide victimization rates for them. I do know however that there are large differences wrt age between black, white and hispanic populations in the US.

http://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/ezashr..._selection.asp

Year of incident by Race of victim for United States

Since 2012 there have been more homicides per year for blacks than all other races combined.

This seems pretty myopic.

I think it's interesting that you have acknowledged and bemoaned the impact of rape culture on woman. I have seen you talk at length about police culture, and how it fosters systemic discrimination and violence towards minorities. Yet somehow you seem eager to believe either that there is no such thing as an inner city thug life culture that glorifies violence, drug dealing, killing police officers, misogyny and violence against women, or that this culture does not play a role in the violence we see emanating from those areas.

[Lewkowski]

Who are these unreasonable, entitled motherfuckers who think that the police shout stop killing them for no reason before the problem of violence in black communities has been completely solved?

Sarcasm aside one wonders why so much focus is on the part that has such a smaller death impact. The night before the Milwaukee riots you had four murders before a black cop legitimately used force on a black suspect who was drawing a weapon. Why did the 4 murders get barely any air time yet the police shooting did? Why are there protesters causing mayhem about a justified shoot when their own community does so much worse?

There are some legitimate reasons to protest (this clearly wasn't one of them) but by and large all of the media attention and focus is on police shooting and not on criminals killing people. Bias and racial agendas are the big reasons for it.

[Flixy]

Err that is pretty obvious. One is committed by the government, one isn't.

[Enoch the Red]

Who are these unreasonable, entitled motherfuckers who think that the police shout stop killing them for no reason before the problem of violence
in black communities has been completely solved?

Right! So perhaps white supremacists can care about rape before completely solving the rape problem in their own communities.

[Steely Glint]

Except they haven't lifted a finger to do anything, or said a word about it until it's crimes committed by non-whites

[Enoch the Red]

Except they haven't lifted a finger to do anything, or said a word about it until it's crimes committed by non-whites

Like make it doubly illegal? Maybe even triply? I have a feeling that a fair number of white supremacists are also in favor of fairly harsh and aggressive punishments for crime.

More to the point, you seem to be under the impression that white supremacists can't have wives, mothers, sisters or daughters that they care about and want to protect. Or even that white supremacists can't be wives, mothers, sisters and daughters themselves.

[Steely Glint]

Like make it doubly illegal? Maybe even triply? I have a feeling that a fair number of white supremacists are also in favor of fairly harsh and aggressive punishments for crime.

Like protesting shit like this or other similar stories that do not involve non-white immigrants.

[Enoch the Red]

Like protesting shit like this or other similar stories that do not involve non-white immigrants.

I'm confused... I haven't seen the NAACP or the ACLU protest that verdict. Are they also pro rape?

[Steely Glint]

Yes, you are

[Enoch the Red]

Yes, you are

You understand that just because groups don't actively campaign against things that aren't relevant to their raison d'etre, that it doesn't mean the group or the membership of the group does not have feelings about that subject, right?

Do you believe a female white supremacist who has been raped somehow doesn't care about rape because she also happens to believe some crazy backward things about Aryan supremacy? Do BLM members not care about police violence and killings when other minorities or whites are involved because they don't protest every event where someone who is not black is assaulted or killed by the police? Where is the logical connection between the two concepts here, Steely?

[Steely Glint]

You seem to enjoy going to an awful lot of effort to make some pretty obvious and irrelevant points.

I don't really give a toss what white supremacists do and do not believe about rape, I doubt many of them they approve of it in the abstract - but, then, who does? - but I also don't doubt that a lot of them have some beliefs about gender and gender roles that trivialize or normalize rape and there's a fair bit of cross over between "men's rights" activists and other assorted alt-right fuckwits and straight up white-supremecist/neo-nazi groups but that's an entirely different and complicated topic and beside the point here.

The point is that when a group sends all of it's time talking about race and immigration and none of it's time talking about sexual violence except in one case where the victims happened to be white and the perpetrators happened to be middle-eastern when quite suddenly they're protesting a pretending they're not being racist, just deeply concerned about women's safety then it is perfectly clear to anyone without their head stuck several miles up their ass that this is a particularly thin and meagre smoke screen and what they're actually doing is taking the opportunity of the suffering of these woman and girls (I'm taking about Rotherham here as much as Germany - you might need to google that one as I don't think it made international news) to advance their stupid, childish, hateful agendas which is as reprehensible as it is insulting to my intelligence.

[Enoch the Red]

You seem to enjoy going to an awful lot of effort to make some pretty obvious and irrelevant points.

Well, that is a relief because it seemed like you were going through an awful lot of effort to make some pretty facile and nonsensical arguments.

[GGT]

I agree with Aimless on this. While assault and robbery is always wrong, the most disturbing part of the story was how police (mis)treated the victim. Even Lewk must have noticed that, since he took what police said to her, and made it the thread's title.

Assuming the story is accurate (and I read it correctly), the first "red flag" was that an injured assault victim had to leave the hospital, and go to the police department to file a complaint against her assailants! That burdens the victim during crisis (aka re-victimization), and is just bad police policy.

Since police forces have a high degree of power/control over people, it matters when police SOPs and training protocols are flawed. If they're based on stereotypes, social or cultural myths, and even outright discrimination.....they're no longer "serving and protecting" the whole community. (see Stop and Frisk policies that targeted non-whites)


Lewk, I'm not sure why you framed this as a left/right political issue, liberals against conservatives, or even a US vs European "values" issue....when it's really about justice and jurisprudence, in a representative democracy, that is no longer dominated by white male hetero Christian power brokers.

[Lewkowski]

Lewk, I'm not sure why you framed this as a left/right political issue, liberals against conservatives, or even a US vs European "values" issue....when it's really about justice and jurisprudence, in a representative democracy, that is no longer dominated by white male hetero Christian power brokers.

What are you on?