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Thread: Post-Brexit British politics

  1. #1

    Default Post-Brexit British politics

    Forgetting international relations, trading with the rest of the world, or with what's left of the EU ... one thing that has been little discussed here is the impact Brexit either has or will have on domestic British politics.

    The one party to instantly adapt was the one party previously most divided on the subject of the EU, my Tory party. Going from a party divided and at best lukewarm about the EU since the late 80s to under a new leader that (nominally) campaigned to Remain but now says "Brexit is Brexit". Now though in the position of taking full ownership of whatever happens next.

    Labour have descended into full blown farce and acrimony with the unbelievable position that 172 out of 230 MPs voted that they have "No Confidence" in their leader [who makes Bernie Sanders look like Ronald Reagan], who looks like being re-elected anyway. If they're not led by Corbyn then they'll be led by Smith and the Labour rebels who want to make fighting Brexit and remaining in the EU a key goal.

    UKIP seem to be melting like the frost in spring. Long a one-man and one-issue band, they've lost their issue and their leader has also retired. Now they've somehow ended up in a position whereby all their other prominent names have been excluded from the leadership ballot on one technicality or another. They have never won a seat not from a defector in their entire history, now I think they'll wither on the vine and disappear like the BNP before them.

    The Lib Dems have decided to double-down on Europhilia (despite a third of their voters voting for Brexit) under a campaign slogan of "we are the 48". The problem is nobody cares and the media doesn't want to report on them.

    The SNP have swept all before them in Scotland but with the oil price having collapsed wiping out 92% of the revenues that Scotland would have received from the North Sea, the notion of an independent Scotland right now is a bankrupt one. Plus Scotland exports far more to England and the rest of the UK than it does to the rest of the EU combined. So it seems probable they'll continue to dominate Scotland but do so within the UK like the Bloc Quebecois dominated politics in Quebec from 1991 - 2011.

    Under First Past The Post, nobody else likely matters unless Labour do split into two parties like the SDP in the 80s. From a breakdown of the parties it seems the Tories are (to great surprise) the best-placed of all the parties to do well in the next few years, but with the risk that if it all goes wrong then they are the ones to take the blame.

    However what's little discussed is the electorate. While the referendum result was relatively close, if it was based on a Parliamentary system for constituencies then it wouldn't have been. Remain dominated some areas with deep support, while Leave swept a majority in most of the nation. Of our 650 constituencies, approximately 220 constituencies voted Remain, approximately 430 constituencies voted Leave. To make matters worse for Remain/overturn-the-referendum inclined parties 70 of those constituencies are within Scotland and Northern Ireland, for which almost every seat goes to local and not UK parties. Within England and Wales the split is approximately 150 Remain, 422 Leave. Without rehashing old arguments, that was while the full forces of the government and Project Fear were suggesting doom, gloom and war if we voted Leave, none of which now looks likely.

    Most marginal constituencies that decide a General Election are located in the Midlands, the North West and 'Yorkshire and Humber'. Leave took almost every single marginal constituency. So I'm not surprised our new PM is refusing to countenance the idea of a second referendum (not that our neighbours would likely have much patience for one either), but I think it will be suicide for Labour if they decide to back Remain now. It will also be suicide to keep Corbyn. So either way, I can't see a way forward for them in the short term. Its interesting but the more marginal a constituency, the stronger the Leave vote. Across the West Midlands and East Midlands where the vast bulk of the marginal constituencies are the Leave vote was 59.3% and 58.8% respectively. Across the North West and Yorkshire and Humber it was 53.7% and 57.7% respectively.
    Last edited by RandBlade; 08-31-2016 at 11:40 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
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  2. #2
    I think your analysis is more or less reasonable, except for a few points. First, I think you underestimate the SNP's desire for another referendum now that Brexit is on the table. And I think they'd win it, screw the economics. Let's be honest, economics were never the reason to secede, and Brexit is only likely to exacerbate the Scottish/English divide. I think a successful independence referendum in the nearish future is relatively likely.

    Secondly, I think it's too early to dismiss UKIP. If, as seems likely, Brexit negotiations will result in a great deal of concessions on e.g. free movement, the nativist anti-immigrant sentiment of UKIP may be able to keep it alive. I don't really think it has ever been a real force in British politics, but I wouldn't count them out yet.

    Third, while I agree that Labour appears to be destined for a long rebuilding period, I'm not certain this is a pre/post Brexit thing, but rather a populist issue having to do with Corbyn coming to power. And there are a lot of unknowns here - if Brexit is poorly handled by the Tories, Labour would be well-placed to grab power, especially if they somehow manage to rid themselves of Corbyn. In the meantime, though, I think Corbyn is the best thing to happen to the Tories in decades.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  3. #3
    Was BNP also polling at 13% nationally when they disappeared?

    And the Lib Dems are up from ~6% to 9% since the referendum. It's also not unreasonable to think support for Labour will go up once it resolves its leadership fight.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  4. #4
    Interesting thoughts. wiggin I don't underestimate the SNP's desire for another referendum, they would love a new referendum with all their heart no matter what. I simply don't rate the odds of them winning it. Economics were never the reason to secede but they are a reason not to. Brexit widens the divide but also makes leaving the UK a bigger leap in the dark, a part of the SNP's message for years was a "have cake and eat it" of being in the union with England via the EU, but not the UK.

    Totally and 100% agreed on Corbyn being the best thing possible to happen to the Tories. One problem the PLP have though in launching their likely soon to be failed coup against Corbyn is they did so over the subject of the EU, they found the only possible subject where Corbyn is more in touch with the electorate than the PLP is. They could have launched a coup based on national security, economics, election results or anything rational but they chose not to.

    Loki no but 9% and 13% are all but irrelevant under First Past The Post. We currently have PR elections in England but Brexit means that monstrosity of a voting system will be gone. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Lib Dems rise up a bit further given that simply being "not the Tories, not Corbyn" ought to win some votes by default. It's not only the Tories who have cause to be grateful for Corbyn, the Lib Dems could have died out were it not for him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #5
    [DISCUSS] Labour was probably going lose to the next election anyway, so Corbyn doesn't matter
    When the sky above us fell
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  6. #6
    Considering electoral maths was supposed to make the Tories election win impossible, that a swing of less than 10 seats would cost them their majority and that the 56 SNP MPs would never make a deal with the Conservative and Unionist Party that seems an odd assumption.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #7
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    I don't see a CP that's all that united. You have a PM who so far came up with the perfect political slogan, which was short, true and utterly void of meaning. The whole EU thing is a timebomb with an unreadable time for your government with enough people in parliament still not wanting it that a rebellion could de-rail brexit, and those who claim they want it not exactly being on the same page of the definition of Brexit. We have the light version of EU membership by stealth which some cabinet ministers favor and the hardcore 'screw them' Brexit other cabinet ministers favor.

    Yes, Labor is in deep trouble with the parliamentary party fighting the its leader, UKIP is looking for a raison d'etre, and the LibDems have to figure out if being pro-EU membership is really a smart plank for their platform. But the Tories could find themselves in the ugliest infighting that party has seen over the same old subject. Getting together unter the formula x=x gave it some breathing space, but nothing more than that.
    Congratulations America

  8. #8
    Without monetary policy, UK would be a muncipality with an army. With Brexit, UK choose sovereignity, not the ruling of ECB.
    As for economy, UK has always been ahead, so I am sure Uk will leave behind that sluggish EU.

    When you see how EU treated Greece, you facepalm. Greece creditors are EFSF, IMF and ECB. Either they like broken business, or they were sucking Greece's money dry. With friends like these, they do not need enemies. Varoufakis exposed the whole EU plot. In august 2015 there was maturity of a big chunk of Greek debt and the demands of Varoufakis seized that. It became obvious that EU was not going to either let Greece enter default (for bailout went to bailed out bank's pockets), nor to allow Greece to have a Grexit.

    So whatever the future of UK will be, it will be better than having European countries that claim to be friends, but behave like enemies or blood sucking leeches.
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  9. #9
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    Whoa you make that up all by yourself?
    Congratulations America

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Considering electoral maths was supposed to make the Tories election win impossible, that a swing of less than 10 seats would cost them their majority and that the 56 SNP MPs would never make a deal with the Conservative and Unionist Party that seems an odd assumption.
    The same electoral math, which turned out to be optimistic in Labour's favour, was also supposed to make an outright Labour win impossible. Who amongst their current frontbeach do you think has the presence and ability to turn that situation around? They can't even come up with someone more convincing than Jeremy Frigging Corbyn, whose most notable achievement is being politically outmaneuvered by cctv camera.
    When the sky above us fell
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  11. #11
    I think the Morley General Election result was a brilliant victory for us, Ed Balls I absolutely loathed. He was a loathsome pugilist but he was the only Labour "big beast" whmo I could imagine fronting the Labour party successfully right now. Decapitating him and ensuring he is now dancing on Strictly rather than a leadership contender was a great result. However Ed Miliband wasn't that far off getting into Downing Street, against the most successful Tory leader in 40 years and while unable to eat a bacon sandwich and thinking an eight foot granite EdStone was a great idea.

    Labour don't need to win a majority, they just need to deny a working majority between the Tories, Northern Ireland unionists and the Lib Dems (realistically now meaning deny the Tories a majority). In four years time the Tories will have been in office for a decade, a Labour return to Downing Street was not ruled out but surely is under Jezza.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  12. #12
    The long awaited, much delayed boundary reforms have been published today which have a few interesting things.

    Many major MPs constituencies have been abolished and significantly redrawn. One is that of Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn for which his new constituency has one of London's biggest Jewish communities added on. Take a heart of stone not to laugh if antisemitism is suddenly taken more seriously.

    While the Lib Dems see their notionally held seats slashed by half to 4. The Lib Dems now are second place in 10 Labour held seats and 50 Tory held seats which makes their jump to the left and their "we are the 48" idea seem less than optimal.

    On notional boundary changes alone majority would be 42 rather than 12 with a working majority of 45 rather than 16 by my calculations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #13
    UKIP leader Diane James has resigned after just 18 days in charge.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  14. #14
    Seriously? Despite being elected leader 18 days ago, Diane James has announced she's not formally been made UKIP leader and she's decided not to file the papers to make it official. Meaning potentially Nigel Farage is UKIP leader again

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #15
    Farage is stumping for Trump....British politics has officially gone global.

  16. #16
    Farage is a ten tines failed lunatic who has never held a domestic elected office and failed to become an MP recently at the tenth attempt the only reason he's ever held any elected office is due to the EU's penchant for PR voting. Hopefully that augurs well as a precedent for your nation who will reject your lunatics like we did ours.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Seriously? Despite being elected leader 18 days ago, Diane James has announced she's not formally been made UKIP leader and she's decided not to file the papers to make it official. Meaning potentially Nigel Farage is UKIP leader again
    Party of swivel-eyed loons, acting like loons. I am shocked.
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  18. #18
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    Which party are you talking about? UKIP? Conservatives? Labour?
    Congratulations America

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Seriously? Despite being elected leader 18 days ago, Diane James has announced she's not formally been made UKIP leader and she's decided not to file the papers to make it official. Meaning potentially Nigel Farage is UKIP leader again

    News here also mentioned she was spat on in public by someone which may have weighed in her decision, which is of course a deplorable act. As much as I dislike UKIP, that is unacceptable.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Which party are you talking about? UKIP? Conservatives? Labour?
    UKIP are the official party of swivel-eyed loons though LOLabour get an extra special mention nowadays.

    It's a weird period to be a partisan Tory. Labour are just a very unfunny joke, UKIP have lost their mojo and the Lib Dems have lost their relevance. The centre ground of British politics has been completely abandoned to us.

    Wasn't too chuffed with May's speech today. She seems to be tacking left economically and more authoritarian/anti-immigrant socially. As a right-wing economically social liberal who believes in migration this is tacking in the wrong direction on everything for me. She even contrasted herself with Libertarians with Libertarian being an insult
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #21
    Entirely unexpected.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Wasn't too chuffed with May's speech today. She seems to be tacking left economically and more authoritarian/anti-immigrant socially. As a right-wing economically social liberal who believes in migration this is tacking in the wrong direction on everything for me. She even contrasted herself with Libertarians with Libertarian being an insult
    Are you surprised?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  23. #23
    Disappointed but not fully surprised, I said I was worried about May when the contest opened.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  24. #24
    Which again, was entirely unexpected (as in the new Tory leader having to throw bones to the anti-immigration nativist crowd)?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #25
    May was speaking like this a year ago long before the referendum as I said in the other thread I just linked to, so no its not unexpected. It's the reason I'd have preferred Gove or Johnson.

    Her 2015 Conference speech was vile. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...2015-live.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Disappointed but not fully surprised, I said I was worried about May when the contest opened.
    Her Tory counterparts in various parallel universes are doing and saying pretty much the same things.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  27. #27
    I don't think so. Still it could be worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #28
    It could also be a whole lot better.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #29
    Yes it could.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    UKIP are the official party of swivel-eyed loons though LOLabour get an extra special mention nowadays.

    It's a weird period to be a partisan Tory. Labour are just a very unfunny joke, UKIP have lost their mojo and the Lib Dems have lost their relevance. The centre ground of British politics has been completely abandoned to us.

    Wasn't too chuffed with May's speech today. She seems to be tacking left economically and more authoritarian/anti-immigrant socially. As a right-wing economically social liberal who believes in migration this is tacking in the wrong direction on everything for me. She even contrasted herself with Libertarians with Libertarian being an insult
    According to your party leaders your vote meant you were against migration. So that went real well.
    Congratulations America

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