EU demonstrates to America 13 billion reasons for Brexit

[RandBlade]

Surprised we've not seen any discussion of this here but in the last few days the EU has fined Apple $13 billion in back taxes going back decades that the EU insists Apple owes to Ireland. Despite the fact that not just Apple but the Irish government (and Irish opposition parties too!) insist that Apple hasn't broken any Irish tax laws. Taxes are supposed to be a national issue but the EU has been trying to wrestle control of Corporation Tax away from Ireland for years and here there has been no court case, just the ridiculous unelected Commission unilaterally ruling against Apple and Ireland on an issue that belongs to Ireland. Unsurprisingly and swiftly other nations such as the UK and Turkey have retorted that if Apple wants to look for a new European home outside the EU they'd be welcome.

Then escalating the suicidal economic war with America the EU seems to be targeting Google next.

And the cherry on the parfait? Now the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) seems to be dead in the water with the German Vice Chancellor calling it dead and the French government calling for TTIP to be dropped altogether.

Meanwhile "back of the queue" (TM Obama) Britain seems to be pushing forwards with getting a new trade deal sorted with America as well as other nations outside our own moribund continent. Perhaps now the penny, or should I say cent, is starting to drop in America as to why exactly we are leaving this socialist behemoth behind?

PS Somewhat Off Topic but no point bumping or creating another thread but August's manufacturing PMI data has just been announced and shows the joint largest increase in the PMI level in the survey's 25 year history.

[ar81]

EU shot itself in the foot.

Why are they fighting for? What do they want? If they want to prove they can "control" by annoying people, then internet trolls are controlling us all.

[Steely Glint]

Bunch of thieving bastards.

[LittleFuzzy]

Bunch of thieving bastards.

Which one(s)? The Commission or the Irish?

[Steely Glint]

Which one(s)? The Commission or the Irish?

Whoever's version of events turned out to be false

[Aimless]

What's puzzling to me is that people imagine opposition to the TTIP comes from only one side of the pond.

[RandBlade]

Either way if TTIP dies but we get a deal, then as someone who wants a deal we made the right decision to come out. Doesn't matter if the French veto it because they hate the Americans, or the Americans veto it because they hate the French. Unless the Americans also veto a deal with the UK but I don't see that happening.

[LittleFuzzy]

What's puzzling to me is that people imagine opposition to the TTIP comes from only one side of the pond.

I'm sure there was opposition here too, and that we had deal-breakers just like the European negotiators do. However, my opinion was and remains that we pushed for it harder and were willing to make more compromises in order to get it. I just didn't think it would matter, I did not and still don't think we and Europe can reconcile our policies enough to make it work.

[Hazir]

It's interesting by the way that Randblade comes out with all guns blazing after the Apple case, yet never bothered to say a word when the US slammed billions of dollars of fines on European banks.

[RandBlade]

If you're referring to things like the LIBOR scandal then the banks broke the law. Apple did not. Tax is a national competence and the national government says all taxes owed have been paid in full.

[RandBlade]

I'm sure there was opposition here too, and that we had deal-breakers just like the European negotiators do. However, my opinion was and remains that we pushed for it harder and were willing to make more compromises in order to get it. I just didn't think it would matter, I did not and still don't think we and Europe can reconcile our policies enough to make it work.

Do you think you and an independent United Kingdom can?

[Hazir]

If you're referring to things like the LIBOR scandal then the banks broke the law. Apple did not. Tax is a national competence and the national government says all taxes owed have been paid in full.

What does it matter? You always hated the EU and you can't help yourself in your behaviour. The US imposes its national rules on the world and Randblade doesn't utter a peep, the EU enforces its rule in its own territory and Randblade cries foul.

[RandBlade]

US enforces its rules in the US and I say not a peep as no peep is necessary. If they'd fined RBS and the British (or Scottish) government was crying foul saying that its a British business and no law was broken then I'd cry foul. RBS acknowledged wrongdoing (as did the British government say it was wrong) and accepted its fine, so why on Earth would I object to that?

However making a peep as you say is something I have done arguing in this thread with Loki when America has attempted to enforce extradition on a Brit for a crime I did not think it was appropriate for. So you're mistaken, I do make a peep when it's appropriate.

Here the EU is interfering not in the EU's territory, but in Ireland's. This is none of the EU's business, it is an American business, headquartered in Cork, Ireland and having paid all tax due to Ireland. Ireland has explicitly not given the EU competence for Corporation Tax.

[LittleFuzzy]

Do you think you and an independent United Kingdom can?

I don't know. You've been a part of the united trade bloc for a while and I don't really know enough about what you're interested in, what you require, and what you hate on our side, as independents, to be able to guess. I know that we'll be less willing to compromise than we were for the TTIP/

[RandBlade]

As I'd expect, while we'll be far more willing to compromise than the lowest common denominator of France etc

[Aimless]

I'm fairly sure something important is missing from the media coverage and also RB's account of this case.

[Hazir]

I don't know. You've been a part of the united trade bloc for a while and I don't really know enough about what you're interested in, what you require, and what you hate on our side, as independents, to be able to guess. I know that we'll be less willing to compromise than we were for the TTIP/

Oh, don't worry, you'll have some sort of free trade treaty with them before you know it. They need something to crow about so they will be bending over backwards to be back to parade around the fact that they have a deal. Of course nobody will be too interested in actually reading what the deal entails, and it will probably be so lopsided that it may push the planet off its axis but what the heck, they'll have a deal to show that they are not the last of the queue.

[RandBlade]

While you won't have anything ...

[RandBlade]

Incidentally its somewhat amusing to hear Hazir, who has long argued the UK should accept any deal the EU [and Eurozone] wants to enforce on us regardless of how lopsided the deal is mocking the idea of us signing a potentially lopsided deal with the USA.

You do realise that the USA is a bigger prize than the entire EU put together don't you? The rump EU has a GDP a smidge over $13.5 trillion, consistently growing sluggishly. US GDP is $16.77 trillion and consistently growing faster. The USA is nearly 25% bigger than the rump EU.

Not only that but signing a deal with the US won't preclude us from then signing a deal with anyone else either. Under our old deal with you we were then forbidden from agreeing a deal with anyone else. That's not a healthy relationship. No matter how lopsided the US deal is it won't be an exclusive one.

[Hazir]

While you won't have anything ...

No, what we won't have is a crap deal just for the sake of having it.

[Hazir]

Incidentally its somewhat amusing to hear Hazir, who has long argued the UK should accept any deal the EU [and Eurozone] wants to enforce on us regardless of how lopsided the deal is mocking the idea of us signing a potentially lopsided deal with the USA.

You do realise that the USA is a bigger prize than the entire EU put together don't you? The rump EU has a GDP a smidge over $13.5 trillion, consistently growing sluggishly. US GDP is $16.77 trillion and consistently growing faster. The USA is nearly 25% bigger than the rump EU.

Not only that but signing a deal with the US won't preclude us from then signing a deal with anyone else either. Under our old deal with you we were then forbidden from agreeing a deal with anyone else. That's not a healthy relationship. No matter how lopsided the US deal is it won't be an exclusive one.

I never said you should sign any deal at all. I said you will not get any good deal because you lack the weight compared with any partner of any interest. AS for the US being the bigger fish; what makes you think they aren't very much aware of that and set their demands accordingly? If you did not like the terms you get with the EU you are in for a nasty surprise with the other big players.

[RandBlade]

Because the USA is not a broke, protectionist, socialist backwater that wants an exclusivity arrangement.

[Steely Glint]

Of all the reasons to be out of the EU, "American corporations will be able to use our country to evade billions in tax" isn't anywhere near the top 10.

[Hazir]

What Randblade also doesn't know is that to be an effective tax haven you also need treaties.

[Aimless]

having read more about this issue I am convinced my earlier suspicion was correct. The ruling is about anti-competitive practices that amount to illegal state aid for specific large multinationals rather than simply being about low corporate taxes in general. The former is entirely within the commission's purview. The latter remains unaffected by this ruling. Ireland is free to lower corporate taxes across the board to something like 0.5-1% if it like provided it gives all businesses the same opportunities. The issue of a company's accounting not reflecting reality is more complex. I don't know what the US is bitching about though, it's not like they'd let Apple repatriate their profits free of cost. Or has that changed recently?

[Loki]

Even if the ultimate agreement is for Apple to repatriate its profits at a tax rate of 10%, that's $1.3 billion lost.

[Hazir]

Even if the ultimate agreement is for Apple to repatriate its profits at a tax rate of 10%, that's $1.3 billion lost.

I'm pretty certain the money set aside for (potentially) doing that is far mor than that.

[RandBlade]

He means $1.3 billion lost to the Federal US government, not Apple.

[Aimless]

Even if the ultimate agreement is for Apple to repatriate its profits at a tax rate of 10%, that's $1.3 billion lost.

It's certainly not nothing, but the US can still claw back up to $20 bn from Apple and it just strikes me as being a little hypocritical.

[RandBlade]

IANAL but I believe that Apple and the US consider that to be money made in America. The argument goes that the value of Apple is in its IP which is created in California so why should it be taxed in Europe? The EU only got a 0.1% tax figure by including profits as "Irish profits" that neither Apple nor Ireland consider to be profits made in Ireland. By taxing it in Ireland that is less profit to be taxed in the USA.