Happy now BLM?

[Lewkowski]

Maybe I am missing something, but your moral calculus seems to goes something like this: steal a toothbrush, forfeit your life. Become a cop and murder someone in cold blood for doing something you ordered them to do and you get fired and have some mean articles written about you. Oh, and maybe if a big enough stink gets raised there might be a trial that you are almost guaranteed to walk away a free man from.

Death for petty theft, a slap on the wrist for murder.

You think that these are just punishments that fit these crimes? Which is more important to deter, and are you reflecting that value in your respective punishments?

Person A wakes up in the morning. Decides to be a parasite. To forcefully take something that does not belong to them. They did it yesterday and will do it tomorrow. That person chose the wrong shop and gets gunned down by a brave citizen.

Person B wakes up in the morning. They are a tax paying citizen with a stable job. A job that is critical for the well functioning of society, an honorable profession. They encounter someone and they fuck up. With their blood pounding in their ears as their heart rate sky rockets they make a horrible decision due to the very real fear that a suspect was reaching for a weapon.

That's the scenario that I see before me Enoch. That's why juries have a hard time convicting someone on a bad shoot. Cops do go to prison for crimes here is an example:

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/12/us...ed=all&mcubz=1

Deliberate acts of evil are punished while heat of the moment fuck ups are viewed in a different light.

[Lewkowski]

In theory, maybe. In practice, you do not. The Castile case was about as clear-cut as it could get. There's no amount of evidence you'd find acceptable.

There are plenty of bad cop cases I could pull out and give you. They typically wouldn't be bad shoots.

Evidence of premeditation - money exchanging hands, recordings etc of an officer accepting a bribe to kill someone (far fetched I know) would be something I'd have no problems seeing and then voting guilty on jury.

[RandBlade]

Maybe I am missing something, but your moral calculus seems to goes something like this: steal a toothbrush, forfeit your life. Become a cop and murder someone in cold blood for doing something you ordered them to do and you get fired and have some mean articles written about you. Oh, and maybe if a big enough stink gets raised there might be a trial that you are almost guaranteed to walk away a free man from.

Death for petty theft, a slap on the wrist for murder.

You think that these are just punishments that fit these crimes? Which is more important to deter, and are you reflecting that value in your respective punishments?

Please find me an example of a cop killing someone in cold blood that hasn't been prosecuted.

We've discussed a number of instances were the cops made mistakes in the heat of the moment, where they are panicking and claim at least to fear for their lives (I would argue for good reason), but that is not "in cold blood".

[Ominous Gamer]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/inv...=.2d729cb7e4d6

Among other things that make you look foolish the above link addresses the differences between being charged and being prosecuted and how it's not considered operating mistakes but acts of passion. Even if you corrected your wording you're still asking the wrong question.



Inb4 Rand cherry picks the handful of possibly self defense cases because reading is hard.

[LittleFuzzy]

Please find me an example of a cop killing someone in cold blood that hasn't been prosecuted.

We've discussed a number of instances were the cops made mistakes in the heat of the moment, where they are panicking and claim at least to fear for their lives (I would argue for good reason), but that is not "in cold blood".

Many crimes are done in the heat of the moment. That's the entire basis behind the charge of 2nd-degree homicide. Murder that's not in cold blood, not premeditated, is 2nd degree murder. Which means it's still murder and a criminal act!

[RandBlade]

Second degree murder requires intent and malice aforethought, both of which are not proven in many of the cases mentioned here.

But the quote I responded to includes the words: Become a cop and murder someone in cold blood ...even if we were to agree it was second degree murder it doesn't meet Enoch's claim of cold blooded murder.

[Ominous Gamer]

https://www.facebook.com/NRA/videos/1605896562755373/



Thats the NRA spreading more of their us vs them mentality. Them being the leftists that are somehow both snowflakes and so violent people need to take up arms against them.

This type of propaganda is what the NRA has become. This is why the NRA is a problem.

[LittleFuzzy]

Second degree murder requires intent and malice aforethought, both of which are not proven in many of the cases mentioned here.

If you raise your gun and shoot a guy intending to remove a threat, that's intent. I don't know where you're getting "malice aforethought" (are you relying on Google?) but it is very rarely a necessary component in US jurisdictions. It IS, however, something that can prove a killing was murder rather than manslaughter. The other common (across just about all jurisdictions) factors which can demonstrate something as murder rather than manslaughter are that the act was intended to cause serious bodily harm (present in ALL of these cases), or that the act demonstrated the offender's depraved indifference to human life (again, a frequent component in these shootings which actually result in criminal charges).

To put things in the common "necessary/sufficient" analytical framework, intent is necessary for 2nd-degree murder but not sufficient, "malice aforethought" is not necessary but is sufficient. "Malice aforethought" itself proves intent, y'see. You don't (and would not) formulate something as requiring malice aforethought AND intent in the first place because intent is redundant, already included in the malice aforethought.

[Loki]

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/stat...158578229.html

And this is your typical black male's experience with the police. Racial profiling, uneven application of the law, and fake laws used to intimidate.

[Lewkowski]

https://www.facebook.com/NRA/videos/1605896562755373/



Thats the NRA spreading more of their us vs them mentality. Them being the leftists that are somehow both snowflakes and so violent people need to take up arms against them.

This type of propaganda is what the NRA has become. This is why the NRA is a problem.

There are multiple types of leftists you know that right? In addition you seem to imply snowflake is synonymous with pacifist. That's pretty wrong - in fact it may even be the opposite. The mockery of the use of the term snowflake is about how people feel they are oh so special and entitled to something. What happens when people who feel they deserve something get smacked in the face with reality? They can turn violent.

Most of the left really isn't violent. But they actively condone violence even if they aren't taking part in it themselves. In fact they are actually IN FAVOR of having 'special treatment' of protesters when it comes to criminal violations! Our very own Loki seems to think that saying 'its a protest bro' should work like some drunk frats ideal system when you can just say 'its a prank bro' and not be charged with a crime.

[RandBlade]

If you raise your gun and shoot a guy intending to remove a threat, that's intent. I don't know where you're getting "malice aforethought" (are you relying on Google?) but it is very rarely a necessary component in US jurisdictions.

Yes. Second degree murder is an American concept (AFAIK we don't have degrees of murder, we have murder or manslaughter). Google, brings up Wikipedia, which used that definition.

[RandBlade]

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/stat...158578229.html

And this is your typical black male's experience with the police. Racial profiling, uneven application of the law, and fake laws used to intimidate.

Yet another thing that routine video recording can end. If you've got a cop lying on video then he can and should be disciplined for it. Case closed.

[Ominous Gamer]

There are multiple types of leftists you know that right? In addition you seem to imply snowflake is synonymous with pacifist. That's pretty wrong - in fact it may even be the opposite. The mockery of the use of the term snowflake is about how people feel they are oh so special and entitled to something. What happens when people who feel they deserve something get smacked in the face with reality? They can turn violent.

Most of the left really isn't violent. But they actively condone violence even if they aren't taking part in it themselves. In fact they are actually IN FAVOR of having 'special treatment' of protesters when it comes to criminal violations! Our very own Loki seems to think that saying 'its a protest bro' should work like some drunk frats ideal system when you can just say 'its a prank bro' and not be charged with a crime.

Your seemingly unlimited ability to deny reality falls somewhere between depressing and hilarious, especially when it's used to defend stances like what the NRA is expressing in the video.

[Ominous Gamer]

he can and should be disciplined for it. Case closed.

It's subtle but your view of the haves and haves not is showing again. When a person lies to a cop it's illegal and they get arrested and charged. When a cop does the lying they get disciplined.

[Aimless]

Only if it's recorded and only sometimes. Fair and balanced

[Enoch the Red]

Please find me an example of a cop killing someone in cold blood that hasn't been prosecuted.

We've discussed a number of instances were the cops made mistakes in the heat of the moment, where they are panicking and claim at least to fear for their lives (I would argue for good reason), but that is not "in cold blood".

It would be difficult to find an example where a police officer murdered someone in cold blood and wasn't prosecuted - by virtue of prosecution being one of the few ways we would hear about it. Given the propensity of some police officers to lie about and seek to cover up a bad shoot, or otherwise plant evidence to trump up charges, or arrest innocent people, it isn't hard for me to imagine cases where there wasn't enough evidence, there was planted evidence, or the prosecutor didn't have the stomach for it, and the police officer got away with it.

As far as whether or not the Castile case was cold blooded murder, it certainly seems cold blooded to me to shoot someone who was following an order you gave them, in front of their girlfriend and child, but I suppose an argument could be made that he was just utterly, and ultimately fatally, incompetent. That certainly is not an excuse in my book.

[LittleFuzzy]

Yes. Second degree murder is an American concept (AFAIK we don't have degrees of murder, we have murder or manslaughter). Google, brings up Wikipedia, which used that definition.

Wikipedia is a Wiki. In this case it provided a direct citation and that citation says the same thing I just did. In fact, the material it used as a source, Findlaw, used the same writing almost verbatim as the one I went to.

[LittleFuzzy]

Yet another thing that routine video recording can end. If you've got a cop lying on video then he can and should be disciplined for it. Case closed.

Except, again, that isn't happening. See the guy who shot a black man in the back and was recorded placing a weapon in his dead hand. The state courts couldn't get a conviction. He's in jail now because the Feds hit him with a civil rights charge, and he made a plea which is going to drop even the obstruction of justice charge.

As far as whether or not the Castile case was cold blooded murder, it certainly seems cold blooded to me to shoot someone who was following an order you gave them, in front of their girlfriend and child, but I suppose an argument could be made that he was just utterly, and ultimately fatally, incompetent. That certainly is not an excuse in my book.

And the thing is, there's actually a lesser included offense he could be convicted of if he were just utterly and ultimately fatally incompetent. That's precisely the sort of thing manslaughter is for here in the US. If it's your screw up, the fault and criminal responsibility is still yours. And if the death should not have happened then it is INDEED a screw up.

[Steely Glint]

Person A wakes up in the morning. Decides to be a parasite. To forcefully take something that does not belong to them. They did it yesterday and will do it tomorrow. That person chose the wrong shop and gets gunned down by a brave citizen.

Person B wakes up in the morning. They are a tax paying citizen with a stable job. A job that is critical for the well functioning of society, an honorable profession. They encounter someone and they fuck up. With their blood pounding in their ears as their heart rate sky rockets they make a horrible decision due to the very real fear that a suspect was reaching for a weapon.

That's the scenario that I see before me Enoch. That's why juries have a hard time convicting someone on a bad shoot. Cops do go to prison for crimes here is an example:

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/12/us...ed=all&mcubz=1

Deliberate acts of evil are punished while heat of the moment fuck ups are viewed in a different light.

What if I impulsively decide to steal a tube of tooth paste?

Asking for a friend.

[Ominous Gamer]

What if I impulsively decide to steal a tube of tooth paste?

Asking for a friend.

[RandBlade]

It's subtle but your view of the haves and haves not is showing again. When a person lies to a cop it's illegal and they get arrested and charged. When a cop does the lying they get disciplined.

Since when were the cops "the haves" and suspects were "the haves not"?

Also since when was lying illegal? Immoral maybe, but illegal I don't think so.

To my knowledge it is not illegal to lie. From my knowledge from US cop dramas the Police lying is not illegal (an issue frequently raised in The Closer/Major Crimes). But also to my knowledge lying to the Police is actually not a crime either - though wasting Police time by filing a false report and attempting to pervert the course of justice both are.

Though if you do get caught out in a lie then expect to get a lot more attention and be trusted a lot less afterwards.

Again from my knowledge from TV dramas lying to the FBI is a crime unlike lying to the Police.

[Ominous Gamer]

Since when were the cops "the haves" and suspects were "the haves not"?

in pretty much every example we've used in this thread thus far, and its broken down in the last link I gave you.

Also since when was lying illegal? Immoral maybe, but illegal I don't think so.

Most places will file it under obstruction. Officers have even arrested defense attorneys for telling their clients say nothing at all. But states do have their own laws for it, like Florida's. Which is separate from filing a false report.

[LittleFuzzy]

Since when were the cops "the haves" and suspects were "the haves not"?

Also since when was lying illegal? Immoral maybe, but illegal I don't think so.

To my knowledge it is not illegal to lie. From my knowledge from US cop dramas the Police lying is not illegal (an issue frequently raised in The Closer/Major Crimes). But also to my knowledge lying to the Police is actually not a crime either - though wasting Police time by filing a false report and attempting to pervert the course of justice both are.

Though if you do get caught out in a lie then expect to get a lot more attention and be trusted a lot less afterwards.

Again from my knowledge from TV dramas lying to the FBI is a crime unlike lying to the Police.

Ooh, TV dramas. First wikipedia and now outright fiction. Rand, correct me if I'm wrong but you DO understand what obstruction of justice is, right?

Yes, it is illegal to lie to the police.

[Ominous Gamer]

https://www.facebook.com/NRA/videos/1605896562755373/.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/how-nra-...ome-peta-guns/
Even cracked has jumped on the bandwagon now.

[Aimless]

Lethal weapon 100: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...ushpmg00000003

[Loki]

Pen aside, he was a threat to a door...I guess we can't have people damaging private property.

[Steely Glint]

Happy Now People Who Make Excuses For Bad Police Shoots And Constantly Try And Derail Any Conversation About Them With Bad Faith Bullshit?

[RandBlade]

Why are you writing in capitals?

I'm not happy with anything in this thread. Weird behaviour by the unfortunate individual who got shot. Whether he was high as a kite or was having a psychotic break its unfortunate he got shot for it.

[LittleFuzzy]

Why are you writing in capitals?

I'm not happy with anything in this thread. Weird behaviour by the unfortunate individual who got shot. Whether he was high as a kite or was having a psychotic break its unfortunate he got shot for it.

Uh. . . allegedly weird behavior by the individual shot, claimed by a homeowner who had taken a shot at him. And of course this is Huffpo, and the Seattle Times article they cite is not exactly filled with sourced material for this narrative.

[Loki]

Even the police account doesn't paint the guy as someone who was an active threat. The home owner was behind his closed door. If the guy lounged at the cops, this would be in the police report. So they failed to quickly apprehend him (allegedly) and decided to shoot him immediately afterward. And yet people are still defending this kind of behavior? What happened to respect for freaking life? Or not being so quick to defend the state's killing of unarmed citizens. Dictators the world over wish they had more citizens like this.