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Thread: Happy now BLM?

  1. #781
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    If standing is a way to show respect then it's fair to characterize standing as a form of speech. At least as much so as giving money to campaigns
    Well said.
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  2. #782
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    You're completely right, I phrased that badly. I meant its not speech as in it's not really political speech.

    It is of course literally speech in the same way as saying please and thank you are.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #783
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    This is inherently political. Kneeling or sitting in order to protest social and political problems is an inherently political act. Standing for the anthem can also be a political act, in the same way that celebrating christmas can be a religious act.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  4. #784
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Hence why I said that your point about compelling speech was strong.

    What I don't see is why it matters if the kid is an alien or native or anything else.
    There are situations where it is reasonable and legal to compel citizens to do things which support the country. (and yes, standing for the anthem is an act which expresses support for the country. That's CERTAINLY what the Louisiana regulatory authority is trying to force). It is not so reasonable or legal to compel non-citizens to do things to support the country. I am talking about the fucking law, Rand, you don't get to bring in "well this particular area seems kinda harmless, it's the courteous thing to do after all" because the law does not and cannot make that kind of distinction.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  5. #785
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    You're completely right, I phrased that badly. I meant its not speech as in it's not really political speech.
    Right. Not political. So, if everyone turned their back on May while she was giving a speech, that certainly wouldn't be political, right?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  6. #786
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    There are situations where it is reasonable and legal to compel citizens to do things which support the country. (and yes, standing for the anthem is an act which expresses support for the country. That's CERTAINLY what the Louisiana regulatory authority is trying to force). It is not so reasonable or legal to compel non-citizens to do things to support the country. I am talking about the fucking law, Rand, you don't get to bring in "well this particular area seems kinda harmless, it's the courteous thing to do after all" because the law does not and cannot make that kind of distinction.
    You don't seem to be understanding me whatsoever. I said repeatedly "you have a strong point about compelling speech" (the legal element) and I completely and 100% agree with you on the law.

    The only part I was questioning is the example chosen. Having been a "legal resident alien" myself through my school years I see no reason why a school student who is one should remain seated while everyone else stands.

    This controversy is a storm over American citizens making a protest not aliens. Which they have every right to do via the First Amendment. That is my only point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #787
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    This is inherently political. Kneeling or sitting in order to protest social and political problems is an inherently political act. Standing for the anthem can also be a political act, in the same way that celebrating christmas can be a religious act.
    Absolutely protests are political and they have every right to occur which is why I've supported them all along.

    Those not engaging in a protest though are not really making a political point by their lack of protest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Right. Not political. So, if everyone turned their back on May while she was giving a speech, that certainly wouldn't be political, right?
    Of course it would because that would be a protest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #788
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    You don't seem to be understanding me whatsoever. I said repeatedly "you have a strong point about compelling speech" (the legal element) and I completely and 100% agree with you on the law.

    The only part I was questioning is the example chosen.
    Which shows that you aren't understanding me OR compulsion OR what is going on with compelling standing for the anthem which is NOT different from the pledge or saluting the flag.

    This controversy is a storm over American citizens making a protest not aliens.
    Which shows you also don't understand what hypothetical examples or the principles behind the prohibition of government action are.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  9. #789
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Absolutely protests are political and they have every right to occur which is why I've supported them all along.

    Those not engaging in a protest though are not really making a political point by their lack of protest.
    Nope, you can be sitting without any intent to protest at all. Which doesn't make one whit of difference wrt a public school requiring you to make an political expression of loyalty. You can choose to stand and intend it to be something other than an expression of loyalty, of course. But the intent the school has is an expression of loyalty.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  10. #790
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Those not engaging in a protest though are not really making a political point by their lack of protest.
    Regardless, compelling someone to stand for the anthem can be tantamount to compelling them to make a political statement with which they disagree, while simultaneously preventing them from making the political statement they might prefer to make. Like hundreds of millions of people, I celebrate Christmas--but not as a religious holiday. Even so, forcing others to celebrate Christmas--which is, at its core, a religious holiday--could be tantamount to compelling a religious act.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  11. #791
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Which shows that you aren't understanding me OR compulsion OR what is going on with compelling standing for the anthem which is NOT different from the pledge or saluting the flag.
    I do understand, I oppose compulsion and I oppose compelling standing. Regardless of whether we are talking native or alien, that is moot.
    Which shows you also don't understand what hypothetical examples or the principles behind the prohibition of government action are.
    The principle that matters is that compulsion and taking away free choice is wrong.

    Whether someone is alien or native is neither here nor there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  12. #792
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Regardless, compelling someone to stand for the anthem can be tantamount to compelling them to make a political statement with which they disagree, while simultaneously preventing them from making the political statement they might prefer to make. Like hundreds of millions of people, I celebrate Christmas--but not as a religious holiday. Even so, forcing others to celebrate Christmas--which is, at its core, a religious holiday--could be tantamount to compelling a religious act.
    You touch on an interesting side point here.

    At school I went to an Anglican school as not just one of the only Pommies in an Australian school but one of the only atheists in an Anglican school. Despite being an atheist I was part of the Chapel Choir as I loved singing, especially around Christmas time. Almost all our songs we sang were religious hymns of some sort. Sometimes they weren't overly religious but the vast majority were.

    As an atheist I could perhaps have said I wasn't happy with the songs we were performing and like any member of the Choir I could have dropped out at any stage. But I could not be both a member of the choir and abstain from religious songs, that would not work (not that I ever even tried). If I didn't want to sing religious songs my only choice would be to leave the Choir, which I ultimately did but only when I wanted to concentrate on my exams as I got closer to my final years and not due to any ethical conundrum.

    I would object to compelling choirs to abandon all religious songs. Even as the biggest atheist I would not view that as progress.

    On a philosophical basis there is little difference between making an atheist have to perform religious songs if they want to be part of the choir or leave it, versus making an athlete follow match day protocols if they want to be part of the team or leave it.

    On a practical basis there is in that the matchday protocols of standing for the anthem etc are not a necessary part of being an athlete while singing is a necessary part of being part of the choir. But then you could get the school to sing different songs - not that I would agree with that.

    EDIT: PS I have no clue how it works in America with regards to choirs and their choice of songs, whether they exist or not. Maybe what we see on Glee is a non-religious alternative to a Chapel Choir like I'm familiar with, I don't know. I suspect you may not have Chapels anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #793
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Wasn't sure whether to put this in this thread or the Trump thread but it seems Trump and Pence etc are either not familiar with the Streisand Effect or don't care: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41544567

    This is a far bigger story thanks to Trump etc than it ever would have been without them getting involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  14. #794
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Wasn't sure whether to put this in this thread or the Trump thread but it seems Trump and Pence etc are either not familiar with the Streisand Effect or don't care: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41544567

    This is a far bigger story thanks to Trump etc than it ever would have been without them getting involved.
    This stunt has endeared both even more to the GOP voter base. The Trump administration thrives on social and political division. Meanwhile, several team owners have made it clear that anyone who protests in this fashion will be punished.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  15. #795
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    While more than several more have made it clear that they won't. Good for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #796
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  17. #797
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Interesting example:

    “I don’t know what social injustices have been,” the Pro Football Hall of Fame inductee replied. “Muhammad Ali rose to the top. Jesse Owens is one of the classiest individuals that ever lived. I mean, you can say, are you talking that everything is based on color? I don’t see it that way.
    “Hitler didn’t snub me; it was our president who snubbed me,” said Jesse Owens, the 23-year-old track star who won four gold medals, of Franklin Roosevelt. “The president didn’t even send a telegram.”
    https://www.theatlantic.com/news/arc...berlin/502325/
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  18. #798
    100 years ago US women couldn't even vote, and he thinks minority were doing dandy?
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  19. #799
    http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicin...l.pmed.1002399
    Quantifying underreporting of law-enforcement-related deaths in United States vital statistics and news-media-based data sources: A capture–recapture analysis

    The media-based source, The Counted, reported a considerably higher proportion of law-enforcement-related deaths than the NVSS, which failed to report a majority of these incidents. For the NVSS, rates of underreporting were higher in lower income counties and for decedents killed by non-firearm mechanisms. There was no evidence suggesting that underreporting varied by death investigator type (medical examiner versus coroner) or race/ethnicity.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  20. #800
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  21. #801
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    What the fudge? Does he want indentured servitude?

    The weird thing is he sounds like he's OK from that clip with "the bad ones" being released, he just wants to keep a hold of the good ones. Eh, wait, what?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #802
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    The US is being ruled by real-life comic book villains. Look at him.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  23. #803
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  24. #804
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Are you in favor of appropriate consequences here? Because I'm absolutely OK with the death penalty for those who murdered a man and life imprisonment on the obstruction of justice charge. Would you be good with that or will you bleat on about how we have to rehabilitate violent criminals.

  25. #805
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Hope is the denial of reality

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