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Thread: Happy now BLM?

  1. #61
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Just because it is their area of responsibility job wise does not mean and never has meant they are uniquely responsible. That's like saying 9/11 and every other terrorist attack was uniquely the responsibility of the intelligence services because it is their responsibility to prevent terrorist attacks, that is their job, so therefore the terrorists are not at all responsible themselves

    Yes the Police are responsible, but so too are the criminals. Just because the Police have the job of dealing with them does not excise any responsibility from those that are committing crimes and creating a dangerous environment for the public and the Police. Again you need to look at the full picture not half of it.
    Sure the criminals share responsible. But guess what, they're criminals. The fact that criminals act with no sense of responsibility or accountability toward the rest of us is why we have the police in the first place. Their function is to step in and provide what the criminals are taking away from the community. Instead, they're doubling down on the effect the criminals have and are making things worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    I'm confused by what you mean 'that is part of their job.' Because it is someone's job you can ignore the very real dangers and stressers inherit to the situation? Asking people to simply 'do their job' in places that regularly have shot outs with people who attack emergency vehicles (firefighters, ambulances) is pretty absurd. You can't ignore what difficulties the police just trying to 'do their job.'
    I'm not asking anyone to ignore anything. But that doesn't mean that what arises from their actions ceases to be their responsibility.
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  2. #62
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Apparently, we should be holding the police to the same standards we hold criminal gangs.
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  3. #63
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Apparently, we should be holding the police to the same standards we hold criminal gangs.
    Perhaps appropriate, all things considered
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  4. #64
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No my position the whole thread is that the whole picture needs looking at and that unacceptable behaviour needs tackling on all sides I've suggested mandatory body cams and abolishing the second amendment as part of that. Simply saying that the Police have too much of a justified reason to pull the trigger because of the very real grave danger they face does not mean they are always justified when they do.

    If a clearly unarmed man is gunned down then that should be dealt with properly. The problem is that in America too often it is not clear. In that last link of which I know too little to comment the relative who called the police said the man who ended up getting shot was armed. I wish we had body cams to know what happened next rather than just hearsay.
    If you accept that some of the behavior cited in this thread is unacceptable, then what relevance is the looking at the whole picture?

    There are no possible mitigating circumstances that can justify the behavior Ali Afshar experienced. Although the link I cited mentioned that they heard a report that the guy had a gun, there are no possible mitigating circumstances that can justify shooting someone dead the instant you see them because you heard from someone that they might have a gun. They have fucking eyes. They can see if the guy is or isn't carrying anything.

    You say "it should be dealt with properly" if someone clearly unarmed is shot. The problem is that it very rarely is in America, and this is a big part of what Black Lives Matter is complaining about. Your response is to equivocate and waffle on about some nebulous 'wider picture' and talk about "sides" like all American blacks are somehow responsible for the criminal actions of anyone with the same skin colour and should expect to take a bit of shit now and again from the police as recompense. It just goes to show the truth behind the name of the movement.
    Last edited by Steely Glint; 09-17-2016 at 05:51 PM.
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  5. #65
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Apparently, we should be holding the police to the same standards we hold criminal gangs.
    A lower standard, in fact. You wouldn't catch Randblade or Lewkowski applying the same "yeah, it's wrong but what about [x]" response to criminal gangs.
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  6. #66
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Sure the criminals share responsible. But guess what, they're criminals. The fact that criminals act with no sense of responsibility or accountability toward the rest of us is why we have the police in the first place. Their function is to step in and provide what the criminals are taking away from the community. Instead, they're doubling down on the effect the criminals have and are making things worse.
    I dispute the claim they're making things worse. As demonstrated by rising crime rates when the police step back ... they may be far from perfect but they're not in the round making things worse.
    I'm not asking anyone to ignore anything. But that doesn't mean that what arises from their actions ceases to be their responsibility.
    Agreed 100%.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Apparently, we should be holding the police to the same standards we hold criminal gangs.
    Sure. If it is clear beyond a reasonable doubt that a law's been broken, then punish the offender. What's objectionable about that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    If you accept that some of the behavior cited in this thread is unacceptable, then what relevance is the looking at the whole picture?
    If you're throwing claims around that "the police made this bed" or "the police are making the situation worse" then you need to look at the whole picture or your claim is nonsense.
    There are no possible mitigating circumstances that can justify the behavior Ali Afshar experienced.
    I completely agree, if that is what really happened. No doubt the other party have a different story to tell. We should have body cams as standard as I have said repeatedly for months including earlier today that could demonstrate if that really happened and get a conviction if it did.
    Although the link I cited mentioned that they heard a report that the guy had a gun, there are no possible mitigating circumstances that can justify shooting someone dead the instant you see them because you heard from someone that they might have a gun. They have fucking eyes. They can see if the guy is or isn't carrying anything.
    Agreed. But the problem is that if you're called and told someone has a gun and then perhaps they are aggressive when you confront them and then reach for a pocket, what are you realistically supposed to do? Here in the UK we are lucky to have a relatively disarmed populace where the biggest risk most of the time is a knife and so the police respond with a taser rather than bullets. That isn't the same in the USA.
    You say "it should be dealt with properly" if someone clearly unarmed is shot. The problem is that it very rarely is in America, and this is a big part of what Black Lives Matter is complaining about. Your response is to equivocate and waffle on about some nebulous 'wider picture' and talk about "sides" like all American blacks are somehow responsible for the criminal actions of anyone with the same skin colour and should expect to take a bit of shit now and again from the police as recompense. It just goes to show the truth behind the name of the movement.
    No I'm saying you need to look at the context. If you think someone is armed and aggressive and going to shoot you're going to be much quicker at pulling the trigger.
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  7. #67
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If you're throwing claims around that "the police made this bed" or "the police are making the situation worse" then you need to look at the whole picture or your claim is nonsense.
    The only 'situation' here is the police's habit of killing young black men for no reason. I fail to see how it could be anything other than of their own making.

    I completely agree, if that is what really happened. No doubt the other party have a different story to tell. We should have body cams as standard as I have said repeatedly for months including earlier today that could demonstrate if that really happened and get a conviction if it did.
    His is hardly the first story of that kind we've heard, nor will it be the last. At what point do you just go ahead and admit there's a problem, and that problem comes from the behavior of a too large proportion of police officers in America?

    Agreed. But the problem is that if you're called and told someone has a gun and then perhaps they are aggressive when you confront them and then reach for a pocket, what are you realistically supposed to do?
    You should probably wait till you actually see a gun in their hand before you open fire.

    I'm not a trained fire arms officer, though.

    Then again, neither are the vast majority of American officers:

    Quote Originally Posted by Retired US Cop on Quora, UK vs US police training
    Constables who carry firearms, called Authorised Firearms Officers or AFOs, are selected even more carefully and have years of experience before they can even apply. Many are already qualified as pursuit drivers because the Armed Response Vehicles (ARVs) they operate have to respond quickly and sometimes over significant distances. Prospective AFOs first spend a week becoming familiar with the 9mm Glock pistol and H&K MP5 automatic rifle, then spend another six weeks in tactical training. Once qualified, they attend one full day of firearms refresher training each month and a two-week course each year [...]

    U.S. cops get 40-80 hours of firearms training in the academy, and may not actually train with their weapons again for years. They do qualify periodically (sometimes as infrequently as once per year) in a marksmanship course of 50 rounds or so, but those who fail to pass typically just repeat the course until they qualify. Most U.S. police agencies regard the ammunition necessary for firearms training to be too expensive to provide regular firearms training. U.S. police carry their firearms all the time, on duty and off, and need no supervisory authorization to deploy them.
    Here in the UK we are lucky to have a relatively disarmed populace where the biggest risk most of the time is a knife and so the police respond with a taser rather than bullets. That isn't the same in the USA.
    Most UK police don't carry tasers.

    No I'm saying you need to look at the context. If you think someone is armed and aggressive and going to shoot you're going to be much quicker at pulling the trigger.
    The problem with that is in the minds of many American police, and frankly, many Americans, simply having black skin is enough for them to 'think' you're armed and aggressive.
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  8. #68
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I dispute the claim they're making things worse. As demonstrated by rising crime rates when the police step back ... they may be far from perfect but they're not in the round making things worse.
    If you the only thing you consider to qualify as "making things worse" is crime rate than no. Their actions are, almost by definition, not crime. Which in a number of the profiled examples is part of what is causing this ire. But they are not making these communities feel safer, which is what we're referring to. The police make their lives worse, whether or not they've committed any crimes. They are harassed. They are shot in their backyards when unarmed. They are shot when the policeman who does the shooting is heard to say 'I don't know' when asked why he shot the guy. There is a fucking problem, the POLICE created it, and it's not going to get fixed until they fucking change.

    It wasn't a philosopher but a poet, Juvenal, who gave us "who guards the guardians" but it might as well be by Plato because it is a real issue. In many places and most of the time, the systems we've created to deal with the way positions with power over others attract bullies, petty despots, and other nasty-minded or authoritarian types work. It is not working here in far too many places.
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  9. #69
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    The only 'situation' here is the police's habit of killing young black men for no reason. I fail to see how it could be anything other than of their own making.
    That is the "only" 'situation' is it?

    So the dozens and dozens of Police killed every single year by gunfire is not a 'situation'?
    The hundreds of police that are killed through all means is not a 'situation'?
    The tens of of Americans killed by gunfire generally is not 'situation'?

    When did these other issues stop being 'situations'?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #70
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    The only 'situation' here is the police's habit of killing young black men for no reason. I fail to see how it could be anything other than of their own making.
    I think you can make a more persuasive case for cops' non-fatal mistreatment of black people, such as unwarranted harrassment including but not limited to searches, unjustified arrests, unfair targetting for traffic stops and the like, targetting for violations of trivial laws such as curfews and jaywalking, clearly unwarranted and excessive use of force, making clearly racist remarks etc.

    Most UK police don't carry tasers.
    American cops use tasers inappropriately too.

    The problem with that is in the minds of many American police, and frankly, many Americans, simply having black skin is enough for them to 'think' you're armed and aggressive.
    Fact

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    If you the only thing you consider to qualify as "making things worse" is crime rate than no. Their actions are, almost by definition, not crime. Which in a number of the profiled examples is part of what is causing this ire. But they are not making these communities feel safer, which is what we're referring to. The police make their lives worse, whether or not they've committed any crimes. They are harassed. They are shot in their backyards when unarmed. They are shot when the policeman who does the shooting is heard to say 'I don't know' when asked why he shot the guy. There is a fucking problem, the POLICE created it, and it's not going to get fixed until they fucking change.

    It wasn't a philosopher but a poet, Juvenal, who gave us "who guards the guardians" but it might as well be by Plato because it is a real issue. In many places and most of the time, the systems we've created to deal with the way positions with power over others attract bullies, petty despots, and other nasty-minded or authoritarian types work. It is not working here in far too many places.


    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    So the dozens and dozens of Police killed every single year by gunfire is not a 'situation'?
    The hundreds of police that are killed through all means is not a 'situation'?
    What do you believe the situation to be?

    In 2015 41 LEO:s were feloniously killed in the line of duty, out of approximately 900,000 sworn officers total and an unknown but likely very high number of actual encounters. 45 were killed in the line of duty due to accidents.

    I have seen no persuasive evidence indicating that the number of officers feloniously or accidentally killed outside the line of duty is particularly remarkable, certainly not remarkable enough that it should have any impact on their behaviour while on duty.
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  11. #71
    Resiste et Mords! Steely Glint's Avatar
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    123 American police died in 2015. 41 of those were by gunfire. Which is clearly 41 too many. But against the 900,000 serving police officers that isn't that many. It certainly compares favorably with the 1100 plus young black men they managed to shoot in the same period.

    I believe that's a ratio of 4.5 deaths per 100,000 officers. Which actually compares favorably with the population of the US as a whole, which experiences nearly 10 gun deaths per 100,000 people. Cops are less likely to be shot than everyone else, not more.

    So, yes, 41 US officers killed by guns in 2015 is 41 too many, but the idea that American police need the right to shoot anyone who looks at them funny or looks """"threatening"""" because their job is just that dangerous... no. Rampant fantasy and nothing more.
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  12. #72
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    I believe that's a ratio of 4.5 deaths per 100,000 officers. Which actually compares favorably with the population of the US as a whole, which experiences nearly 10 gun deaths per 100,000 people. Cops are less likely to be shot than everyone else, not more.
    Getting safer yet more trigger-happy for every year.
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    123 American police died in 2015. 41 of those were by gunfire. Which is clearly 41 too many. But against the 900,000 serving police officers that isn't that many. It certainly compares favorably with the 1100 plus young black men they managed to shoot in the same period.

    I believe that's a ratio of 4.5 deaths per 100,000 officers. Which actually compares favorably with the population of the US as a whole, which experiences nearly 10 gun deaths per 100,000 people. Cops are less likely to be shot than everyone else, not more.

    So, yes, 41 US officers killed by guns in 2015 is 41 too many, but the idea that American police need the right to shoot anyone who looks at them funny or looks """"threatening"""" because their job is just that dangerous... no. Rampant fantasy and nothing more.
    Many police officers don't have to deal with violent crime on a daily basis in their community. Some police officers aren't on patrol and spend most of their time within the police station itself. The folks who regularly patrol high crime areas have far more reason to be cautious and alert than the 'average' officer.

  14. #74
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...spects-camera/

    Good thing we have white people with cameras, a black dude woulda killed within 10 seconds of their arrival.
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  15. #75
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    More isolated incidents, clearly.

    Edit: and one more: http://www.newson6.com/story/3313076...shooting-death
    Last edited by Loki; 09-20-2016 at 12:10 AM.
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  16. #76
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/17/ny...th-police.html

    "But what about professor-on-professor crime??"
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  17. #77
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    More isolated incidents, clearly.

    Edit: and one more: http://www.newson6.com/story/3313076...shooting-death
    More details: http://heavy.com/news/2016/09/terenc...ly-photos-car/

    Tragic, disgraceful. But in their defense he did look like "a bad dude" and it's plausible that he was in fact raising the roof with the intent of using the roof as a deadly weapon.
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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    More isolated incidents, clearly.

    Edit: and one more: http://www.newson6.com/story/3313076...shooting-death
    Almost all of these cases it is a male victim. Why don't we have a Male Lives Matter movement?

  19. #79
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Almost all of these cases it is a male victim. Why don't we have a Male Lives Matter movement?
    In the later years of your life, when you're part of an old white Christian hetero male minority, maybe you'll be glad that groups like BLM fought for your civil rights.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    In the later years of your life, when you're part of an old white Christian hetero male minority, maybe you'll be glad that groups like BLM fought for your civil rights.
    Well if you want to go down all those descriptors I'm already a minority.

  21. #81
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Then what are you complaining about?

  22. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Then what are you complaining about?
    The sexist police state we live in. Do you know how many more men are incarcerated than woman? What about how many more men are shot by police? Hell more men are accused for crimes than women! Tell me right now how you could possibly have such skewed statistical representation of men in prison compared to women if we didn't have a horribly sexist system? I'll be waiting.

  23. #83
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    It's all because we're being too "politically correct", right?

  24. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    It's all because we're being too "politically correct", right?
    What are you talking about? I'm still waiting for you to declare our prison system sexist or explain why there are more men in prison than women.

  25. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    What are you talking about? I'm still waiting for you to declare our prison system sexist or explain why there are more men in prison than women.
    And I'm asking why you're surprised that a system devised by white men would look any different?

  26. #86
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Almost all of these cases it is a male victim. Why don't we have a Male Lives Matter movement?
    Why don't you start one? Oh yeah, because you don't actually care. This is like when you go on about refugees raping Americans when almost every single rapist is a man. You don't actually care about the problem.

    Really ironic btw to see someone who approves of the borderline illegal profiling of innocents get his panties in a bunch over people making justified generalizations about cops. And speaking of profiling, you shouldn't have a problem with this stuff at all. This is racial profiling in action.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Why don't you start one? Oh yeah, because you don't actually care. This is like when you go on about refugees raping Americans when almost every single rapist is a man. You don't actually care about the problem.

    Really ironic btw to see someone who approves of the borderline illegal profiling of innocents get his panties in a bunch over people making justified generalizations about cops. And speaking of profiling, you shouldn't have a problem with this stuff at all. This is racial profiling in action.
    It should be obvious I don't consider the system sexist. I'm waiting for a response as to WHY people here don't find it sexist. The rational that will be used will be interesting.

  28. #88
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    *shrug* "The system" is sexist, based on multiple lines of evidence. That sexism interacts strongly with racism. I know that you have a hierarchy of preferences where your enjoyment of racism is marginally greater than your enjoyment of sexism but both are in reality major problems about which you remain clueless.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  29. #89
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    It should be obvious I don't consider the system sexist. I'm waiting for a response as to WHY people here don't find it sexist. The rational that will be used will be interesting.
    You don't consider the system sexist (or racist) because you don't know what the terms mean. When you don't understand the terms, it's much easier to ignore them. For example, it's perfectly accurate to describe you as a southern white male. But if the same attributes were ascribed to women....you'd be the first to say that's crazy.

  30. #90
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    It should be obvious I don't consider the system sexist. I'm waiting for a response as to WHY people here don't find it sexist. The rational that will be used will be interesting.
    The system is sexist. But there's also ample evidence that black men get targeted more than white men, and black women get targeted more than white women.
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