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Thread: Happy now BLM?

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post

    While Lewk and I have both been saying we should make the police wear body cams that can and should be used as evidence as to what happened in the incident, there are very few alternative productive proposals other than "waahhh the popo pigs are waycist"
    This is a good point - what do y'all want? What specific policy proposals do you want to see enacted that both decrease the amount of improper police shootings while not increasing LEO danger and/or increase the crime rate?

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    This is largely a war term (ie: caroline test), as preemptive by definition is a response before self-defense is required. A preemptive shooting would be a cop shooting someone under the anticipation that they may turn violent. Not as a response to them acting like it.

    You're basically trying to legalize pre-crime ala minority report, and thats insane.
    No I'm talking about situations where a suspect is eg aggressive and irrational and reaches for a pocket and a nervy cop pulls the trigger thinking they are reaching for a gun before the suspect pulls the trigger themselves.

    Or even situations where a suspect is armed and dangerous and waving a gun around and is shot even though the suspect hasn't actually pulled the trigger yet.

    Taking action before the suspect starts shooting would still be self-defence even if the cop is the first to pull the trigger.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    This is a good point - what do y'all want? What specific policy proposals do you want to see enacted that both decrease the amount of improper police shootings while not increasing LEO danger and/or increase the crime rate?
    mandatory 'de-escalation' training would be a good start. Implementing such training should have always been a requirement. Instead its news when departments finally cave to it.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No I'm talking about situations where a suspect is eg aggressive and irrational and reaches for a pocket and a nervy cop pulls the trigger thinking they are reaching for a gun before the suspect pulls the trigger themselves. That would be self-defence even though a gun hasn't been seen let alone a trigger pulled.
    thats not preemptive. Its still poor training for a cop to murder someone before accessing an actual threat though. That goes back to the instutional problems encouraging the current mindset of "us vs them" and "everyone is out to get you".
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    This is a good point - what do y'all want? What specific policy proposals do you want to see enacted that both decrease the amount of improper police shootings while not increasing LEO danger and/or increase the crime rate?
    Indeed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    thats not preemptive. Its still poor training for a cop to murder someone before accessing the threat though.
    It's what I meant by preemptive, the cop is preempting the suspect pulling the trigger.

    And I'm talking all along about cops that have assessed the threat. That is why all my talk of risk and threat has been relevant. If the cops are not acting rationally and relative to the threats (real or perceived) then there is a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    (real or perceived)
    and that could be where your problem is
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    After the stop people can still be a danger. Men are more likely to be dangerous than women, blacks are more likely than whites to be dangerous.
    Please provide non-circular support for this claim. I'm perfectly willing to accept that men are more likely to act in a way that causes the police to use force than women are, I am not willing to concede that African-Americans are more likely to do so than whites when stopped, and particularly not that African-American women are almost as likely as white men to do so.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    and that could be where your problem is
    People act on their perceptions, we're talking people here not cyborgs. Lowering perceived risk will lower actions if people are acting based on their perceptions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    People act on their perceptions, we're talking people here not cyborgs.
    we're talking about a profession who is legally allowed to not hire people it thinks are to smart, who encourages a no snitches stance, that uses "good" cops to cover up for bad cops, that institutionally ingrains in its workforce that everyone is out to kill you (which I do believe you've defended before).

    You can't justify the deplorable actions to tinted perceptions as people being people and think everything is mostly honky dory, cause its not.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  11. #131
    http://m.heraldmailmedia.com/news/br...e6df6cdf9.html

    Fuckers went to the RB-Lewkowski Police Academy for Fuckwits no doubt. Disturbing video.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  12. #132
    http://www.dailywire.com/news/9108/w...prestigiacomo#

    "“With that said, that day that I shot myself, the police…came through there; they knocked the doors down; I was on the floor; they hopped over me, looking for the drugs,” said Wayne. “It was a white police that ran up and stopped, and said, ‘What the f*ck are ya’ll doing? Do you not see this baby on the floor?’”

    “He picked me up, bought me to the hospital himself. He was white," said Wayne. "

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    http://m.heraldmailmedia.com/news/br...e6df6cdf9.html

    Fuckers went to the RB-Lewkowski Police Academy for Fuckwits no doubt. Disturbing video.
    Don't resist and you are less likely to get injured during the arrest. This should be basic logic and anyone incapable of following basic logic needs to be treated with the utmost caution because who knows what a crazy fool will do. Fifteen is old enough to make adult decisions (proof is they can be tried as adults) so that isn't an excuse. While the officers *may* have used more force than absolutely necessary she was the one who escalated the situation by not complying. In a civilized society resisting arrest should not be tolerated.

  14. #134
    Remind me which part of the constitution or our legal system says the punishment for non-violently resisting arrest is punishable by death.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Remind me which part of the constitution or our legal system says the punishment for non-violently resisting arrest is punishable by death.
    The imaginary part you think I'm quoting? Hell if I know. if you resist arrest there are only a few possible options.

    1. Mentally impaired either medically or because you took something
    2. Dangerous levels of idiocy
    3. A wanted criminal

    Resisting arrest should immediately ratchet up the suspicion of the officer and put them on their guard. In each case you have something on your hands that is a clear and present danger to society at large.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    The imaginary part you think I'm quoting? Hell if I know. if you resist arrest there are only a few possible options.

    1. Mentally impaired either medically or because you took something
    2. Dangerous levels of idiocy
    3. A wanted criminal

    Resisting arrest should immediately ratchet up the suspicion of the officer and put them on their guard. In each case you have something on your hands that is a clear and present danger to society at large.
    In point of fact, the police do not actually have the authority to use force to just detain you at will. They have to actually be arresting you to gain the authority to forcibly detain you and consequently for you to potentially be resisting arrest, and they weren't initially arresting the girl when the altercation turned physical. They didn't decide to arrest her until afterward, to cover their asses. Before that they were just using force to try and make her do what they had decided she ought to do.
    It's not wise to resist the police regardless of whether they're arresting you or not, as several posted stories regarding people who try to intervene make clear, because they have a lot more power available to them in such instances than you do, but that doesn't mean they have legitimate authority to use that power which means if you want to be unwise, that's entirely your right and cannot be any sort of legitimate cause for suspicion.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Don't resist and you are less likely to get injured during the arrest. This should be basic logic and anyone incapable of following basic logic needs to be treated with the utmost caution because who knows what a crazy fool will do. Fifteen is old enough to make adult decisions (proof is they can be tried as adults) so that isn't an excuse. While the officers *may* have used more force than absolutely necessary she was the one who escalated the situation by not complying. In a civilized society resisting arrest should not be tolerated.
    More likely the officers provoked a very strong fear reaction in her due to their lack of basic decency and were too fucking incompetent to know how to deal with the consequences like decent human beings. The spraying was unjustified and the bullshit about needing to take her to a hospital because of possible injuries was obviously a lie.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    More likely the officers provoked a very strong fear reaction in her due to their lack of basic decency and were too fucking incompetent to know how to deal with the consequences like decent human beings. The spraying was unjustified and the bullshit about needing to take her to a hospital because of possible injuries was obviously a lie.
    I can actually readily believe that it started out as a decision that she needed/was required to go to the hospital to be checked out. Once things escalated though, they obviously couldn't do that, they had to gain control of a situation they'd managed to create.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  19. #139
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I'd only be fined if it was proven beyond a reasonable doubt that I had no right to self defence.

    If the lion was running at me and I shot it I don't think a court in the world would convict. I wouldn't need to wait until it was a second away from killing me before I felt in danger.

    If the hamster did the same thing I wouldn't shoot.

    If a big dog did the same thing I might be more likely to shoot it than the hamster but less likely than the lion.
    However to make it a better analogy, if a zoo keeper feels threatened every time a lion looks at him and kills it, he probably shouldn't be a zoo keeper and would get fired.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I can actually readily believe that it started out as a decision that she needed/was required to go to the hospital to be checked out. Once things escalated though, they obviously couldn't do that, they had to gain control of a situation they'd managed to create.
    If they were truly worried about a potentially life threatening injury there is no reason why they couldn't take her straight to the hospital for an assessment. If necessary they could restrain her far better and more safely at a hospital, with better supervision. It's possible things are different in the US wrt rules, but it is a common enough occurrence here that I've gotten to know--superficially--a number of the cops who work in my town from their visits to the ER with all sorts of "unmanageable" people.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  21. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    However to make it a better analogy, if a zoo keeper feels threatened every time a lion looks at him and kills it, he probably shouldn't be a zoo keeper and would get fired.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  22. #142
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    What is funny is that a good chunk of Americans who feel they need a constitutionally guaranteed gun in their pocket, are the same people who want the police to act like the US is a lawless police state.
    Congratulations America

  23. #143
    Ditto. The same people who think everyone should have a gun think it's ok for the police to shoot any black man who might be carrying one.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  24. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    If they were truly worried about a potentially life threatening injury
    I don't think they were, it was just that she was a minor and I expect they (or more likely the paramedics who the police decided to use force to support) had a rule to follow. In all probability a rule which exists primarily to ward off lawsuits, just like the later asinine charges and arrest the police undertook were to ward off/occupy the lawyer the family could be expected to hire in the face of their behavior.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  25. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I don't think they were, it was just that she was a minor and I expect they (or more likely the paramedics who the police decided to use force to support) had a rule to follow. In all probability a rule which exists primarily to ward off lawsuits, just like the later asinine charges and arrest the police undertook were to ward off/occupy the lawyer the family could be expected to hire in the face of their behavior.
    Of course by taking her to the lockup they were really exposing themselves to risk of a lawsuit because, even though they were lying about their reasons, she should indeed have been taken to a hospital

    Absolutely fucked-up either way. Glad she didn't get shot, or suffocated, or banged about.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  26. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    However to make it a better analogy, if a zoo keeper feels threatened every time a lion looks at him and kills it, he probably shouldn't be a zoo keeper and would get fired.
    Ironically, or tragically, RB the twitchy zookeeper could probably get a job as a cop:

    http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cop...-dog-body-cam/

    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  27. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Ditto. The same people who think everyone should have a gun think it's ok for the police to shoot any black man who might be carrying one.
    Nope.

  28. #148
    Says the person who thinks a cop feeling threatened, even if there's no objective reason for that belief, is sufficient for them to shoot someone.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #149
    Says the person who likes to gripe about the issue but doesn't propose solutions.

  30. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Ironically, or tragically, RB the twitchy zookeeper could probably get a job as a cop:

    http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cop...-dog-body-cam/

    Now those two are screwed. Because pushing the door back open when they were not invited in was a constitutional violation which robs all their subsequent actions of any ghost of legitimate defense.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

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