A small glimmer of hope

[Aimless]

http://www.haaretz.com/world-news/eu...3A513018130810

[RandBlade]

Democracy FTW

[Loki]

Followed hours later by a populist victory in Italy.

[RandBlade]

Italy is way more complicated than that. A lot of people are reported to have been backing No in Italy because they were worried about a potential future 5 Star majority under the reforms.

[Loki]

It doesn't matter what they wanted, just like it didn't matter why people voted for Brexit. The fact of that vote brings the 5-star movement that much closer to forming a government.

[RandBlade]

It absolutely matters why they voted just as it does for Brexit. Messing around with the Constitution for short term partisan interest is idiotic. Who forms the next government can be decided now under the long existing settlement.

Would you vote to abolish the Senate if it made the Democrats more likely to win one vote once?

[Flixy]

It is for longterm interest to have a more stable system, that was the whole point. I'd say that people who voted against this to get Renzi out would be the ones with the short term approach.

That said I don't know enough about the proposal to know if it was good or bad.

[Hazir]

It is for longterm interest to have a more stable system, that was the whole point. I'd say that people who voted against this to get Renzi out would be the ones with the short term approach.

That said I don't know enough about the proposal to know if it was good or bad.

I don't know the details of the plan either. But I can imagine people are less enthusiastic about handing the executive more powers in a country where the executive was quite abusive in the application of powers. The main problem of Italy also very often is less with legislation than with legislation meaning something more than a suggestion in general except when it gives a person in a position of authority a chance to make his power felt.

I hadn't thought about what it would mean for Italy if they'd said yes in a situation where the 5-star movement has a chance of getting into power.

[RandBlade]

It is for longterm interest to have a more stable system, that was the whole point. I'd say that people who voted against this to get Renzi out would be the ones with the short term approach.

That said I don't know enough about the proposal to know if it was good or bad.

Of course anyone who voted against to get him out (or in favour to keep him in) is short-termist.

I've barely paid attention to the Italian campaign but The Economist (which is very pro-EU etc and couldn't be further from 5 Star) published an editorial backing No. http://www.economist.com/news/leader...should-vote-no

I'm not sure giving absolute and unchecked power to Berlusconi (recent past) or Grillo (potential future) is a great suggestion - even though it's closer to our constitution. In fact these reforms would have given the executive far more unchecked power than even our system does. It would have guaranteed the largest party 54% of the seats (our system doesn't, in fact our current government doesn't have that many). It also would allow the Senate to block bills for no more than 30 days before being bypassed, the Parliament Act is rarely used but allows the upper house to block bills for a minimum of a year even if it is used.