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Thread: Myanmar's treatment of the Rohingya

  1. #31
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    She's by far the most popular person in the country. If anyone can persuade the public, it's her.
    Perhaps, or perhaps the public would turn on her.

    You're more concerned at the lack of an international reaction than you are at the ethnic cleansing itself? Really?
    I am more concerned by the lack of a strong international reaction than I am by ASSK's equivocation. I expect nothing from her, but I expected more from the West. If I have said anything to indicate that I think the lack of an international reaction is worse than the ethnic cleansing itself then that was certainly not my intention, although I can see how someone else might argue that point (in that, the lack of a strong response will encourage and enable further acts of ethnic cleansing down the line).
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  2. #32
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Perhaps, or perhaps the public would turn on her.
    Why be a ruler of a country if not to prevent it from committing ethnic cleansing against its own people? Of course the answer is obvious: she doesn't think the Rohingya are her people.

    I am more concerned by the lack of a strong international reaction than I am by ASSK's equivocation. I expect nothing from her, but I expected more from the West. If I have said anything to indicate that I think the lack of an international reaction is worse than the ethnic cleansing itself then that was certainly not my intention, although I can see how someone else might argue that point (in that, the lack of a strong response will encourage and enable further acts of ethnic cleansing down the line).
    Myanmar is her responsibility, not the West's. That's true both on the moral and practical level. Even if you don't think she has sufficient influence to stop what's going on, she has far more influence than any Western country (or any other country for that matter).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #33
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Why be a ruler of a country if not to prevent it from committing ethnic cleansing against its own people? Of course the answer is obvious: she doesn't think the Rohingya are her people.
    Is this a rhetorical question? I can conceive of many reasons why someone may wish to be a ruler of a country while being okay with ethnic cleansing and other crimes against humanity. Justifying or trivializing atrocities is commonplace all over the region, even among ostensibly educated middle-class individuals. I don't dispute the view that ASSK does not consider the Rohingya to be "her people", given her & Burmese authorities' long-held policy of denying even the name "Rohingya".

    Myanmar is her responsibility, not the West's. That's true both on the moral and practical level. Even if you don't think she has sufficient influence to stop what's going on, she has far more influence than any Western country (or any other country for that matter).
    Myanmar is her responsibility, but crimes against humanity concern all nations, especially those who were instrumental to establishing the concept in the first place and who have striven to strengthen laws and norms prohibiting such atrocities. While ASSK may have more influence on the Burmese public than any other country has, I don't expect her to attempt to use that influence. We'll know if she has sufficient influence if/when she attempts to go against public opinion on this matter.

    International condemnation is important not only to influence opinion among Burmese public--low likelihood--but also to influence opinion in the rest of the world, including western countries, so that norms prohibiting these kinds of actions aren't eroded here at home or further eroded in countries like India, where middle-class professionals--and even expats in the west!--are embracing virulent Islamophobia and ethnonationalism en masse. International condemnation is also important in order to prevent nations from deliberately or inadvertently aiding and abetting the commission of atrocities eg. by providing weapons.




    This is the kind of weaksauce garbage I was expecting but am nevertheless disappointed by:

    https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/...ate,%20Myanmar
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  4. #34
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    To the extent that international condemnation matters, it's when the international community speaks with a unified voice. And you already acknowledged this won't be the case. Regardless of what the West says, India and China will stay quiet (or even explicitly support the government). Even Bangladesh is saying nothing. These are the countries with the most influence on Myanmar, and they're the ones whose views the people and government of Myanmar respect the most. Western criticism is easily dismissed as neocolonialism. So while I agree that it would be nice to hear more condemnations from the West, I also can't see it making the slightest bit of difference.

    Frankly, the self-serving condemnation from Chechnya's Kadyrov and Turkey's Erdogan are much more likely to make a difference, because there's some potential the rest of the Muslim world will be pushed to get involved. That would make it more difficult for China in particular to stay quiet.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #35
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Fair enough.

    Meanwhile: https://www.facebook.com/jonathan.he...55513803715993

    In line with military & govt. tactics in previous outbreaks of violence against minorities. Commit atrocities, pin blame on victim population using staged photos & videos.


    Is EU & US cooperation with Burmese military still on the table?

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/ne...ge-on-myanmar/
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  6. #36
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    For the US, the State Dept. is so understaffed that you should expect the maintenance of the status quo in every country where Trump doesn't personally get involved. And I doubt anyone would want Trump to get involved here.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  7. #37
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    UN human rights chief uses the "c-word":

    https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-41224108

    BBC article about Jonathan Head's observations on carefully controlled but nevertheless damning tour:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-41222210

    Personal accounts:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ar-army-attack
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  8. #38
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    It's hard to see it as anything less than ethnic cleansing.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  9. #39
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    It's hard to see it as anything less than ethnic cleansing.
    Western and Indian islamophobes have risen to the challenge.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  10. #40
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    A quarter of the Rohingya population simultaneously decided to take a vacation abroad?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  11. #41
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    A quarter of the Rohingya population simultaneously decided to take a vacation abroad?
    Burma is just deporting illegal aliens, who're having too many terrorist babies, in an understandable attempt to defend Burmese culture and society from sharia rape-bombs.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Burma is just deporting illegal aliens, who're having too many terrorist babies, in an understandable attempt to defend Burmese culture and society from sharia rape-bombs.
    Perhaps it's for the best that Trump doesn't hear about this then.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #43
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Lefty hippy types typically make out like Buddhists can do no wrong ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  14. #44
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Lefty hippy types typically make out like Buddhists can do no wrong ...
    I have never encountered such a person and I can't say anything about your experiences. In the last few weeks however I've seen a large number of conservatives and assorted islamophobes describing Burmese Buddhists as being praiseworthy pacifists in comments to articles about ostensibly Buddhist soldiers and civilians participating in ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity. They're spoken of as brave and principled defenders of nation and culture from invading Muslims who've forced the Buddhists to take decisive action before it's too late. At best they'll say something to the effect of, "Look what those Muslims made the Buddhists do!" The west is encouraged to learn from these heroes and deport its Muslims before it's too late. Confronted with evidence of Buddhists committing atrocities on a huge scale, a naive leftist might resort to the time-honoured "no true Scotsman" defense. In contrast, private citizens on the right in both the west and in India are increasingly coming out in support of the view that a TRUE Scotsman uses ethnic cleansing, rape, torture, murder, theft and arson in defense of his nation and his fantasy of a homogenous society. The latter is immeasurably worse, and it sickens me to see how common these comments are becoming in response to increasing social tolerance for Islamophobia.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  15. #45
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    What a load of bullshit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #46
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    And yet.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  17. #47
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I have never encountered such a person
    I have, but my university has a strong hippie reputation and that train of thought is not uncommon among ignorant knee-jerk liberals on the West Coast whose only knowledge about Buddhism is that they are led by someone called the Dalai Lama who is a great pacifist.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  18. #48
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Indeed, not that uncommon amongst the ignorant on this side of the pond either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  19. #49
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I have, but my university has a strong hippie reputation and that train of thought is not uncommon among ignorant knee-jerk liberals on the West Coast whose only knowledge about Buddhism is that they are led by someone called the Dalai Lama who is a great pacifist.
    Like I said, I can only speak about my own experiences. I have not personally encountered a "leftist" who thinks Buddhists "can do no wrong". In the past few weeks, however, I have come across and engaged dozens of right-wing people--self-identified "conservatives" as well as blatant assholes of the openly xenophobic/ethno-nationalist/white-supremacist variety--who have expressed their support for and admiration of the Burmese campaign against "Muslims". There was a time when I did not believe anyone but an actual Nazi or direct equivalent would endorse or try to justify these kinds of atrocities, so these exchanges have been unsettling and difficult to process. It's one thing when it's a member of the suddenly ever-present Burmese social media propaganda army, but we're talking about what appear to be ordinary white Americans, Brits, Germans, Austrians, Belgians, Spaniards, Poles etc. talking about how these atrocities are just what "they" deserve, how the west should learn from Burma, how "the Muslims" must be driven out of the west by any means necessary, how no-one should feel sorry for these victims ("so-called") etc.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  20. #50
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    You have personally encountered these people? Where are you travelling that you personally encounter them?

    Or are you referring to online trolls you haven't met face to face?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #51
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Recently, I have discussed with them on Facebook and twitter and I have no reason to believe that more than a small handful of those accounts were fake. Nor is their behavior comparable to trolling. Previously, mostly in the past year, I've encountered people with similar views irl. but it hasn't been made as undeniably in-your-face clear as it is now due to the Rohingya crisis.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  22. #52
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    The disbelief you're expressing here is, incidentally, the reason I posted the "Laughing at Auschwitz" thread.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  23. #53
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    No disbelief if you mean on the internet - there are douchebags all over the internet. Especially if you go looking for them on certain Facebook or Twitter or douche websites.

    However you used the word personally regarding the Buddhists which made me think you meant IRL.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  24. #54
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    I'm sorry but I don't understand how it can be so difficult for you to accept that there are real people like that. I don't go dredging through any special websites. I'm talking about comments under articles by Economist, WSJ, BBC, The Guardian, FT, NY Times etc.
    Last edited by Aimless; 09-12-2017 at 08:44 PM.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  25. #55
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    I do accept there are real people like that. There are real people like that all over the internet especially if you look for them.

    Less so IRL unless you travel in bizarre circles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #56
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Like I said, there's no need to go "looking" for them. When it comes to subjects that lend themselves to an Islamophobic analysis, they're everywhere. Facebook is not some sort magical internet island for outcasts. It's not Atari. There are 2 billion users and they're ordinary people. They go to the same bars and pubs as we do. They vote in our elections. They ride the train and bus with me. They come to my ER. The major difference is that when people comment on a public Facebook post, it's there until they delete it, and everyone can see it. Which makes it all the more extraordinary that more and more people feel comfortable with openly expressing these opinions where their friends, family and colleagues can see it. Not surprising given the amount of approval they attract. It's dangerously naïve to trivialize the magnitude of the problem they represent. Just under a third of voters in Iowa say they don't think Islam should even be legal, and 20% aren't sure whether or not it should be legal. Do you think Loki has to "travel in bizarre circles" to encounter these people? No. He'd have to travel in bizarre circles to completely avoid these people. Iowa may be the asshole of the US but it's not so drastically different from the rest of the West that one should be surprised if large numbers people in other Western regions hold similar views on these matters.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  27. #57
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    My Facebook page is dominated by pictures of people's children, not people supporting ethnic cleansing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #58
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I'm sorry but I don't understand how it can be so difficult for you to accept that there are real people like that.
    There absolutely are. But more and more on social media, you're not dealing with real people, you're dealing with organized/planned PR and presence. You already know this and ignore commercial material but you think it doesn't apply to subjects like news, politics, and racism?

    I don't go dredging through any special websites. I'm talking about comments under articles by Economist, WSJ, BBC, The Guardian, FT, NY Times etc.
    Online comments, not real interaction, and frequently at least pseudo-anonymous.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  29. #59
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    LOL I hadn't read the comments under articles part as that got edited in after. Those are well-known for being full of cranks and trolls.

    If you take any of it seriously then more fool you. They're not real personal interactions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  30. #60
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    There absolutely are. But more and more on social media, you're not dealing with real people, you're dealing with organized/planned PR and presence. You already know this and ignore commercial material but you think it doesn't apply to subjects like news, politics, and racism?



    Online comments, not real interaction, and frequently at least pseudo-anonymous.
    Unlike you, I use social media and can recognize an ordinary person behaving in an ordinary manner on Facebook.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

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