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Thread: Myanmar's treatment of the Rohingya

  1. #61
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Online comments, not real interaction, and frequently at least pseudo-anonymous.
    If you click on the profiles of most people commenting on Facebook news stories, you'll see that they're not particularly anonymous. At the very least, their comments are visible to everyone on their friend list.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  2. #62
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #63
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    If you click on the profiles of most people commenting on Facebook news stories, you'll see that they're not particularly anonymous. At the very least, their comments are visible to everyone on their friend list.
    Doesn't make them normal people you've personally interacted with either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  4. #64
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    People you personally interact with are far less representative of the general population than Facebook users.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #65
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    People I interact with honestly have not talked about this at all. Which I guess is part of the problem.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  6. #66
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Glad to see McCain taking a position against continued military support.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  7. #67
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Doesn't make them normal people you've personally interacted with either.
    There's nothing about the concept of personal interaction that requires physical interaction. Your position is, tbh, a little bizarre.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  8. #68
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    People you personally interact with are far less representative of the general population than Facebook users.
    But he's not talking about Facebook users.

    People you personally interact with are far more representative of the general population than the self-selected tiny proportion of Facebook users who aggressively comment on news stories.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    People I interact with honestly have not talked about this at all. Which I guess is part of the problem.
    Indeed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    There's nothing about the concept of personal interaction that requires physical interaction. Your position is, tbh, a little bizarre.
    Physical interaction is real life. Trawling through the trolls in the dark recesses of the internet (and yes that includes aggressive comments on news stories as normal people don't do that) will find all the whackos out there.

    There is a small proportion of the population that are fruitcakes, nuts and loons absolutely.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #69
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    I am talking about Facebook users. Every single major and most smaller news sources post many or most of their articles to Facebook as well. I'm not sure how you have been able to remain unaware of this but this is not the dark recesses of the internet.
    Last edited by Aimless; 09-13-2017 at 06:29 PM.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  10. #70
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  11. #71
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-m...-idUSKCN1BP2GG

    Glad to hear from him at last. I'm a little surprised.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  12. #72
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-my...KCN1BS0PH?il=0


    The world has learned nothing. We are a planet full of Lewks.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  13. #73
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    The other side of self-determination.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  14. #74
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    At the expense of the self-determination of others.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  15. #75
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Easiest way to deal with "rowdy" minorities.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #76
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  17. #77
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/burma...-rohingya.html

    A whole lot of assholes among Burmese "democrats."
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #78
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  19. #79
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    They're not and neither are about 50 other countries including the likes of India.

    Loki you're obsessive about international law, does that claim that they're not breaking the law since it doesn't apply to them stand? Does it make it right?

    I would say that even if what they're doing is not technically illegal it is dead wrong and we should stand against it. But then again, I don't think international law is what determines if things are right and wrong so something can be wrong even if not illegal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #80
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    They're not and neither are about 50 other countries including the likes of India.

    Loki you're obsessive about international law, does that claim that they're not breaking the law since it doesn't apply to them stand? Does it make it right?

    I would say that even if what they're doing is not technically illegal it is dead wrong and we should stand against it. But then again, I don't think international law is what determines if things are right and wrong so something can be wrong even if not illegal.
    A) They're violating customary international law. Once enough countries ratify and follow a treaty, it applies to everyone. This is why pre-WWII international law applies to post-colonial states whether or not they signed the relevant treaties.

    B) They're a part of plenty other international organizations that ban this type of behavior, including the UN.

    C) For all your talk about what is right, if the action isn't illegal, then there's no mechanism for multilaterally punishing the wrong-doer.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  21. #81
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    They're not and neither are about 50 other countries including the likes of India.

    Loki you're obsessive about international law, does that claim that they're not breaking the law since it doesn't apply to them stand? Does it make it right?

    I would say that even if what they're doing is not technically illegal it is dead wrong and we should stand against it. But then again, I don't think international law is what determines if things are right and wrong so something can be wrong even if not illegal.
    My shock was at his claim that India isn't obligated to respect the non-refoulement principle. Treaty or no treaty, a reasonably strong case can be made that India is bound by international law in this regard.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  22. #82
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    I think you mean Myanmar. I mentioned India as another nation that hasn't signed like Myanmar hasn't.

    Loki.

    A Where is anything in law saying that it applies to non signatories? Absolutely the mighty might compel the weak to follow what the mighty have decided but that's not law. That's realpolitik which is what I have always suggested.

    B. Considering over a quarter of the UNs members haven't signed this again where is it written that it applies to all UN states?

    C. Bullshit. Of course there is: politics, diplomacy, realpolitik etc

    Sanctions, threats, embargoes or even military action are all ultimately actions taken by politicians when it suits them to take that action not judges after a judicial trial. All this talk of law is a facade.

    If the USA, China, Russia, UK, France and a couple of extra nations all agreed to launch military action against Myanmar tomorrow it would be "legal". If the same nations voted to launch military action against New Zealand it would also be legal apparently.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  23. #83
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Rand, it would help if you at least wikied customary international law before we had this discussion.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  24. #84
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I think you mean Myanmar.
    No, I meant India. The tweet was by India's Home Minister, who was suggesting that it would be all right for India to deport rohingya refugees within its borders to Burma, in violation of the non-refoulement principle.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  25. #85
    SEŃOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Rand, it would help if you at least wikied customary international law before we had this discussion.
    specifically, the jus cogens status of the non-refoulement principle has been made increasingly clear for over 30 years. Deporting tens of thousands of rohingya back to Burma would be a clear violation. Instantly deporting the same population to Bangladesh would violate other laws. India could do it though. The west would not respond.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  26. #86
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    A) They're violating customary international law. Once enough countries ratify and follow a treaty, it applies to everyone. This is why pre-WWII international law applies to post-colonial states whether or not they signed the relevant treaties.
    The rule in CIL is that silence implies consent. Absent jus cogens, if the state objects than it doesn't matter if its CIL

    C) For all your talk about what is right, if the action isn't illegal, then there's no mechanism for multilaterally punishing the wrong-doer.
    Sure there is. Because interstate interaction remains a fairly anarchical environment. The mechanism is a group of states deciding they want to work together and punish the wrong-doer. See the sanctions on Russia.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  27. #87
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Do I have to cite the million studies that show sanctions implemented through the UN are more likely to work? Remind me how those Russian sanctions are doing.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  28. #88
    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Do I have to cite the million studies that show sanctions implemented through the UN are more likely to work? Remind me how those Russian sanctions are doing.
    You said "punish." If you want us to address something else, say what you actually mean.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  29. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    You said "punish." If you want us to address something else, say what you actually mean.
    By multilateral, I meant through a global IO (common usage). I didn't literally mean multiple countries.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  30. #90
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Do I have to cite the million studies that show sanctions implemented through the UN are more likely to work? Remind me how those Russian sanctions are doing.
    So what you're saying is that when all of the world's major powers are implementing sanctions they're likely to work, whereas when the powers are divided or even the target of the sanctions then they're less likely to work?

    Quelle surprise!

    The only logical explanation is that the UN is magic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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