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Thread: Myanmar's treatment of the Rohingya

  1. #1
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Default Myanmar's treatment of the Rohingya

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/11/30/...nmar-rohingya/

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...P=share_btn_fb

    How do you think this will play out over the next six months?

    Will this have a broader negative impact on peace and stability in the region?
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

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    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    They'll continue committing ethnic cleansing. The rest of the world will continue to do nothing (or in the case of the US, actually remove sanctions for previous human rights violations).
    Hope is the denial of reality

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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    This is turning into a humanitarian nightmare that will inevitably give rise to a security nightmare. I am astounded by the lack of an international reaction.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

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    That probably would be because there are some more pressing issues at the moment.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    To be honest I don't know that much about this situation. From the Guardian article it sounds a lot like Israel/Palestine conflict yet it gets a tiny fraction of a tiny fraction of the media coverage that the latter conflict always gets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    It's worse.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Yet very few are interested. I wonder why?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Yet very few are interested. I wonder why?
    RB, we know that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is, by far, the most disproportionately covered news story on the planet. The fact of the matter is that the Rohingya ethnic cleansing etc. that is going on in Rakhine State, while truly awful, is not that distinct from any number of other pretty terrible things going on in the world. And since it's in the third world and there are limited Western commercial or strategic interests involved, it gets more or less ignored.

    With Myanmar in particular, there is the added complexity that the government has been moving, haltingly, towards a more open society: the military has relaxed its control over the government somewhat, freedom of expression and press has been less strictly curtailed, the economy is opening up, etc. And for ethnic Burmans in the country's center, it is indeed dramatically better. It's ethnic minorities on the periphery - especially but not uniquely the Rohingya - who have not reaped the benefits from this openness. And Western countries want to reward the government for its progress, so they downplay their criticism of ongoing abuses against minority groups. It's a tricky situation, but I'm less than enamored of this approach, especially since if the Rohingya were Christian we'd be far more likely to hear complaints.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  9. #9
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Seems like a pretty good summary wiggin. Not sure what the answer is here. A nobel peace prize no longer looks justified that's for sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #10
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Yet very few are interested. I wonder why?
    The BBC has been reporting regularly on the situation but it's a story that is difficult to package, still fairly localized and distant from western audiences. All the stories about Myanmar's excesses are dominated by comments from people who consider the disproportionate and borderline criminal responses to be justified. Who wouldn't? Violent illegal Muslim immigrants (invaders) trying to steal what rightfully belongs to peaceful Buddhists who're just trying to defend their nation and hoping to avoid the problems that now afflict naive western nations. Good luck to the brave and prudent Burmese!

    The worst part is that independent international organizations are being prevented from assessing the situation in Rakhine so suspected human rights' violations can't be objectively confirmed. We're just left with stories from the survivors and, of course, stories about the ones who drown on the way to Bangladesh.

    With tens of thousands of refugees straining the capacity of Bangladesh's border communities and the WFP's work once again obstructed, it's only a matter of time before this humanitarian challenge turns into a full blown nightmare also for neighboring countries. The insurgency has already picked up steam and recruitment among refugees is accelerating. These people are going to be irresistible to extremist organizations in the region, moving forward.

    A number of actors seem to think that, by giving Burma a free pass--literally; no significant formal criticism whatsoever from major western countries--they're somehow helping to shore up the power of the nascent civilian government. In reality they're reinforcing the military's hold over the government, while helping to establish a precedent for illiberal civilian rule as well as an irresponsible, self-centered approach to regional security. Burma now expects to participate on the global stage without playing by the rules or acting neighborly. Given that its actions will affect other countries in the region, this is a very counterproductive--verging on foolish--approach to take. This is an evil that will come back to bite everyone in the ass.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  11. #11
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    The top democracy dataset in poli sci just updated their democracy scores for the entire world, and they rated Myanmar a democracy, with the same score as the US. People, even smart people, really have their heads in the sand on this.
    Hope is the denial of reality

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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Incredible. Do you have a link?
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The top democracy dataset in poli sci just updated their democracy scores for the entire world, and they rated Myanmar a democracy, with the same score as the US. People, even smart people, really have their heads in the sand on this.
    Concerning the US or Myanmar?
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Incredible. Do you have a link?
    http://www.systemicpeace.org/inscrdata.html (Polity IV annual time series)
    http://www.systemicpeace.org/inscr/p4v2016.xls (direct link to the Excel file)
    http://www.systemicpeace.org/inscr/p4ch2016.xls (brief justification here; scroll down to Myanmar)

    The key variable is polity2. It takes values from -10 to 10. 6 is usually seen as a threshold for democracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Concerning the US or Myanmar?
    In all seriousness, both. Their rationale for the US not having a perfect score is the US is too polarized on ethnic/religious grounds...as polarized as Iraq.
    Hope is the denial of reality

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    A few protests this week in Russia. Not sure whether Putin has the ability or willingness to do anything though.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  16. #16
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  18. #18
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It's worse.
    Nonsense, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the worst conflict in the world and it deserves the mandatory attention of every UK university student for at least three hours per week.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The top democracy dataset in poli sci just updated their democracy scores for the entire world, and they rated Myanmar a democracy, with the same score as the US. People, even smart people, really have their heads in the sand on this.
    Jesus

    I mean, I get the whole "reward progress" thing but what happened to "punish regression" thing?

  20. #20
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    Myanmar has learned a lot about managing the optics from those hours of study.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Jesus

    I mean, I get the whole "reward progress" thing but what happened to "punish regression" thing?
    I'm guessing it was coded by someone with little knowledge of the place and who got their news entirely from American sources.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I'm guessing it was coded by someone with little knowledge of the place and who got their news entirely from American sources.
    Any even remotely well-informed American who read any reputable news source would know about Myanmar. I recognize that the vast majority of Americans don't quality as 'remotely well informed', but one would hope that someone putting together a poli sci dataset might be in the minority.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  23. #23
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    The people updating it are likely grad students under the guidance of a professor. I would hope at least two people have to agree on the numbers, but who knows. There were some odd changes this year, like decreasing America's polarization score to the same level as Iraq's.
    Hope is the denial of reality

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    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-4...ource=facebook

    The BBC's coverage has stepped up.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  25. #25
    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #26
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    At least 27% of Rohingya forced out of Myanmar.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  27. #27
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    I'm astonished by all these calls for DASSK to act. Her influence on and relevance to this matter is minimal. Given the opinions Burmese nationals are expressing on social media, I suspect she would lose even her moral authority among her supporters, were she to speak out against these atrocities. The Tatmadaw are certainly not going to start listening to her now or abandon their central military doctrine. Everyone should be calling for 1. intervention by and action from govts, supranational institutions and humanitarian organizations and 2. action from western companies conducting business in Burma. Even then, they'll be shutting the stable door after the horse has been forcibly displaced. Don't see a way back atm. Don't see how Bangladesh will be able to cope with this situation in a remotely acceptable manner. My dad's worked near the border several times in conjunction with the arrival of refugees, his friends there are telling him this goes far beyond anything they've had to deal with before. This like Christmas for terrorists, sex-traffickers and carrion-eaters.

    The only comments I've gotten from politicians and companies (such as H&M) doing business in Burma are that they are "concerned" and "following the events actively" which is a load of horseshit.

    I can't get over the sheer inadequacy of the international response. Feels like it's in line w/ the response seen after previous outbreaks of violence w/ waves of refugees, but even more shameful. India seems to be taking notes. The near future will be grim for SEA but I can't help but feel as if this crisis will have consequences for the entire world due to further erosion of crucial norms.

    Anyway, my head's buzzing and Burmese trolls have successfully gotten Facebook to rescind my link-posting privileges so I'm gonna go try and wind down now.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  28. #28
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    A) She is the leader of the country. She has substantial influence, even if it's less than the military.
    B) Even if she doesn't explicitly condemn what's going on, she can at least not attack anyone who does.
    C) This isn't new for her. She legitimately doesn't seem to believe the Rohingya have a place in Myanmar.
    D) At some point, you have to take a moral stand. That time is when your people are committing ethnic cleansing.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #29
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    A) She is the leader of the country. She has substantial influence, even if it's less than the military.
    B) Even if she doesn't explicitly condemn what's going on, she can at least not attack anyone who does.
    C) This isn't new for her. She legitimately doesn't seem to believe the Rohingya have a place in Myanmar.
    D) At some point, you have to take a moral stand. That time is when your people are committing ethnic cleansing.
    I agree with B - D, while I believe her influence, though substantial, is not enough to rein in the military or sufficiently sway public opinion in Burma. I just don't see how her taking a moral stand would change anything for the Rohingya or, indeed, anyone else. I would like for her to take a moral stand. Perhaps it might even have a small impact on public opinion outside Burma. But is her integrity crucial? I don't know. I am more concerned by the milquetoast response from Western countries.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I agree with B - D, while I believe her influence, though substantial, is not enough to rein in the military or sufficiently sway public opinion in Burma. I just don't see how her taking a moral stand would change anything for the Rohingya or, indeed, anyone else. I would like for her to take a moral stand. Perhaps it might even have a small impact on public opinion outside Burma. But is her integrity crucial? I don't know. I am more concerned by the milquetoast response from Western countries.
    She's by far the most popular person in the country. If anyone can persuade the public, it's her. But of course she doesn't want to, because she supports these actions.

    You're more concerned at the lack of an international reaction than you are at the ethnic cleansing itself? Really?
    Hope is the denial of reality

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