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Thread: 'Greatest nation on Earth' afraid to own up to a bunch of ignorant, religious yokels

  1. #1

    Default 'Greatest nation on Earth' afraid to own up to a bunch of ignorant, religious yokels

    Evolution, Big Bang Polls Omitted From NSF Report

    In an unusual last-minute edit that has drawn flak from the White House and science educators, a federal advisory committee omitted data on Americans' knowledge of evolution and the big bang from a key report. The data shows that Americans are far less likely than the rest of the world to accept that humans evolved from earlier species and that the universe began with a big bang.

    They're not surprising findings, but the National Science Board, which oversees the National Science Foundation (NSF), says it chose to leave the section out of the 2010 edition of the biennial Science and Engineering Indicators because the survey questions used to measure knowledge of the two topics force respondents to choose between factual knowledge and religious beliefs.

    "Discussing American science literacy without mentioning evolution is intellectual malpractice" that "downplays the controversy" over teaching evolution in schools, says Joshua Rosenau of the National Center for Science Education, a nonprofit that has fought to keep creationism out of the science classroom. The story appears in this week's issue of Science.

    Board members say the decision to drop the text was driven by a desire for scientific accuracy. The survey questions that NSF has used for 25 years to measure knowledge of evolution and the big bang were "flawed indicators of scientific knowledge because responses conflated knowledge and beliefs," says Louis Lanzerotti, an astrophysicist at the New Jersey Institute of Technology who chairs NSB's Science and Engineering Indicators Committee.

    The explanation doesn't appear to have soothed White House officials, who say that the edit—made after the White House had reviewed a draft—left them surprised and dismayed. "The Administration counts on the National Science Board to provide the fairest and most complete reporting of the facts they track," says Rick Weiss, a spokesperson and analyst at the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy.
    The deleted text, obtained by ScienceInsider, does not differ radically from what has appeared in previous Indicators. The section, which was part of the unedited chapter on public attitudes toward science and technology, notes that 45% of Americans in 2008 answered true to the statement, "Human beings, as we know them today, developed from earlier species of animals." The figure is similar to previous years and much lower than in Japan (78%), Europe (70%), China (69%), and South Korea (64%). The same gap exists for the response to a second statement, "The universe began with a big explosion," with which only 33% of Americans agreed.

    The board member who took the lead in removing the text was John Bruer, a philosopher who heads the St. Louis, Missouri-based James S. McDonnell Foundation. He told Science that his reservations about the two survey questions dated back to 2007, when he was the lead reviewer for the same chapter in the 2008 Indicators. He calls the survey questions "very blunt instruments not designed to capture public understanding" of the two topics.

    "I think that is a nonsensical response" that reflects "the religious right's point of view," says Jon Miller, a science literacy researcher at Michigan State University in East Lansing who authored the survey 3 decades ago and conducted it for NSF until 2001. "Evolution and the big bang are not a matter of opinion. If a person says that the earth really is at the center of the universe, even if scientists think it is not, how in the world would you call that person scientifically literate? Part of being literate is to both understand and accept scientific constructs."
    I wouldn't necessarily agree with "a big explosion" but they're discussing an event that happened outside the laws of physics we understand, so what the Hell.

    The questions were "flawed indicators of scientific knowledge because the responses conflated knowledge and beliefs," says Louis Lanzerotti, an astrophysicist at the New Jersey Institute of Technology in Newark and chair of the board's Science and Engineering Indicators (SEI) committee.
    If someone really really believes in something that's diametrically opposed to physical reality, they still can't change that reality. By definition, reality is that which does not go away when you stop believing in it.

    How can school systems even hope to ingrain a sense of inquiry and thinking to children who're reared by miscreants such as these? Religion's poisoning the well, again, surprise surprise.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  2. #2
    Conservatives in America pine for the good old days, back in the late 19th Century, the days that if returned to would put us on the level of a 3rd World Country. That would be better than Obamacare and Godless science. Never mind all these chickens coming home to roost, at least we beat the Communists. Besides, the Money's global now, so it doesn't matter what happens here anymore anyway.
    The Rules
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Conservatives in America pine for the good old days, back in the late 19th Century, the days that if returned to would put us on the level of a 3rd World Country.
    I've heard that what they pined for was their memory of a magical 1950's America that in reality never existed...
    . . .

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    I've heard that what they pined for was their memory of a magical 1950's America that in reality never existed...
    Sunday, Monday, Happy Days.
    Tuesday, Wednesday, Happy Days.
    Thursday, Friday, Happy Days.
    The weekend comes,
    My cycle hums,
    Ready to race to you.

    These days are all,
    Happy and Free. (Those Happy Days)
    These days are all,
    Share them with me. (oh baby)

    Goodbye grey sky, hello blue.
    There's nothing can hold me when I hold you.
    Feels so right, it can't be wrong.
    Rockin' and rollin' all week long.

    Note, only the stupid ones want this. The smart ones like an America where people were always yanking on their boot straps, or dying unnecessarily, in lieu of the government using your tax dollars to build a sensible civilization.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Sunday, Monday, Happy Days.
    Tuesday, Wednesday, Happy Days.
    Thursday, Friday, Happy Days.
    The weekend comes,
    My cycle hums,
    Ready to race to you.

    These days are all,
    Happy and Free. (Those Happy Days)
    These days are all,
    Share them with me. (oh baby)

    Goodbye grey sky, hello blue.
    There's nothing can hold me when I hold you.
    Feels so right, it can't be wrong.
    Rockin' and rollin' all week long.

    Note, only the stupid ones want this. The smart ones like an America where people were always yanking on their boot straps, or dying unnecessarily, in lieu of the government using your tax dollars to build a sensible civilization.
    Death is a small price to pay for boot straps. Individualism is freedom.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Death is a small price to pay for boot straps. Individualism is freedom.
    Where'd you read that?
    "Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Spawnie View Post
    Where'd you read that?
    Same place you did; the post above your's.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  8. #8
    Science needs factual evidence, and since facts are always incomplete, science has to change premises from time to time.
    Religion instead is based on Biblical evidence, so Bible proves itself.
    Why bother kids with some confusing science when they may have a simple crystal clear bible that proves itself?
    Didn't you know bible was the manual that came when humans opened the package of this universe?
    Unfortunately there is no support or guarantee...
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Same place you did; the post above your's.
    'twere a joke mon frere
    "Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.

  10. #10
    Theres many people in my school who are athiests...I don't have an exact or accurate count, but it is quite a fraction out of 2500 students

  11. #11
    A fraction, indeed. You're aware that 1/2500 is a fraction?
    I'm not surprised, but disappointed, both in the editing and in the question. I'm an atheist and I wouldn't have agreed with "The universe began with a big explosion," because I don't know. I'd assume a lot of people wouldn't be as quick to jump to conclusions in science as others are in religion.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Knux897 View Post
    Theres many people in my school who are athiests...I don't have an exact or accurate count, but it is quite a fraction out of 2500 students
    Being an atheist != being scientifically and factually knowledgeable...
    . . .

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Conservatives in America pine for the good old days, back in the late 19th Century, the days that if returned to would put us on the level of a 3rd World Country. That would be better than Obamacare and Godless science. Never mind all these chickens coming home to roost, at least we beat the Communists. Besides, the Money's global now, so it doesn't matter what happens here anymore anyway.
    Liberals in America pine for the good old days back in the 1950s and 1960s, the days that if returned to would put us on the level of an industrial power making 60% of the world's output while the rest of the world starves. Where any industrial worker and labor for a few years and get a lifetime pension at the seat of an industrial economy totally out of balance with the rest of the world. A balance that will never be achieved again, despite what the unions say.

    But yeah, schools ignoring evolution is truly stupid and I'm ashamed this stuff happens in Real America.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Death is a small price to pay for boot straps. Individualism is freedom.
    It's a big ass price to pay. You're dead, where's your freedom now bitch?

    Quote Originally Posted by ar81 View Post
    Science needs factual evidence, and since facts are always incomplete, science has to change premises from time to time.
    Religion instead is based on Biblical evidence, so Bible proves itself.
    Why bother kids with some confusing science when they may have a simple crystal clear bible that proves itself?
    Didn't you know bible was the manual that came when humans opened the package of this universe?
    Unfortunately there is no support or guarantee...
    And unfortunately the universe's manual doesn't cover 99.999999999999999% of the universe. And what it does cover tends to be wildly inaccuarte.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knux897 View Post
    Theres many people in my school who are athiests...I don't have an exact or accurate count, but it is quite a fraction out of 2500 students
    That's nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Liberals in America pine for the good old days back in the 1950s and 1960s, the days that if returned to would put us on the level of an industrial power making 60% of the world's output while the rest of the world starves. Where any industrial worker and labor for a few years and get a lifetime pension at the seat of an industrial economy totally out of balance with the rest of the world. A balance that will never be achieved again, despite what the unions say.
    Except that my claim is backed up by conservative policy and yours is just silly. Yeah, we know you hate unions. Not all liberalism is about the dying labor movement. But all conservatism seems to be about restricting social freedom & education, cutting taxes at whatever cost, and eliminating a functional government.
    The Rules
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    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
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  15. #15
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    This is what happens when you let democracy run things. Any large group of jackasses have political power, no matter how uniformed or moronic their opinions are.

    It's not an indictment of America as much as it is an indictment of democracy. Who would have thought that leadership through popularity progress might not be perfect?
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  16. #16
    Get over it, there will be no benevolent dictator any time soon. Representative democracy is flawed, but it's still better than anything so far.

    Besides, Cain--where else do you have to go, isn't this like the last stop on the train? You left Canada to come to the US. That means you'll just have to deal with all the uneducated or populist voters that you don't like. Just like I have to deal with money buying votes and corporatism that I don't like. It's all free speech, baby. SCOTUS says so.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    This is what happens when you let democracy run things. Any large group of jackasses have political power, no matter how uniformed or moronic their opinions are.

    It's not an indictment of America as much as it is an indictment of democracy. Who would have thought that leadership through popularity progress might not be perfect?
    We must turn our governance over to the Machines.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Get over it, there will be no benevolent dictator any time soon. Representative democracy is flawed, but it's still better than anything so far.

    Besides, Cain--where else do you have to go, isn't this like the last stop on the train? You left Canada to come to the US. That means you'll just have to deal with all the uneducated or populist voters that you don't like. Just like I have to deal with money buying votes and corporatism that I don't like. It's all free speech, baby. SCOTUS says so.
    Last edited by EyeKhan; 04-14-2010 at 07:12 PM.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  18. #18
    The problem of calling a nation 'Greatest nation on Earth' is that it encourages no change, no questioning of what is wrong, no honest criticism.

    In september 2008 in anothe forum I said that unemployment would be a problem in US and I was warned for "country bashing", "socialist" and "trolling". Why? Because a person from a country that "wasn't the greatest" came to question "the greatest" nation.

    To me, greatest is just a matter of nationalist ego. By now US is just as third world as any Central American country, with high debt, high govt deficit, high trade deficit, unemployment, poverty.

    I think Americans are great people, but I can't say the same about the system.
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    It's a big ass price to pay. You're dead, where's your freedom now bitch?
    Individualism is freedom. Death exemplifies individualism. Death is freedom to the max. People who whine about socialization of civilization should be given maximum freedom.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  20. #20
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Didn't realize it was a binary choice.

    Good to know.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Individualism is freedom. Death exemplifies individualism. Death is freedom to the max. People who whine about socialization of civilization should be given maximum freedom.
    You're a murderer.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  22. #22
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Get over it, there will be no benevolent dictator any time soon. Representative democracy is flawed, but it's still better than anything so far.
    Define better, and also, no, no it isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Besides, Cain--where else do you have to go, isn't this like the last stop on the train? You left Canada to come to the US.
    Proving that I'm willing and able to move somewhere better?

    And, contrary to popular opinion in these parts, the US is not the be all and end all. I just need to find a way to steal save up ~50 million (USD), and I can have my own little sovereign island with all the guns and booze I could ever want. I tried to get a loan from the bank, but apparently they have hang ups about getting repaid with drug money, even if recreational drugs are completely legal in Cainistan. Moralistic fucktards - they made my list of places to target ICBMs at.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    That means you'll just have to deal with all the uneducated or populist voters that you don't like.
    And why do you figure that? Personally, I prefer solutions that don't involve perpetual pains in my ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    We must turn our governance over to the Machines.
    Despite what sci-fi may have told you, it's not like they could possibly do a worse job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Individualism is freedom. Death exemplifies individualism. Death is freedom to the max. People who whine about socialization of civilization should be given maximum freedom.
    I'm sure you've heard this before, but if you were to improve your intellect just a little bit, you'd make an outstanding worker ant.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    You're a murderer.
    No I'm not.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Despite what sci-fi may have told you, it's not like they could possibly do a worse job.
    I wasn't joking. We need AI so it can rule us effectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    No I'm not.
    Prove it.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  25. #25
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I wasn't joking. We need AI so it can rule us effectively.
    Problem with that is that ultimately, AIs are designed by people, and thus... come with human biases and errors. Imagine the political clusterfuck that would come out of designing a president AI (or whatever). It's bad enough that people who think the Earth is ~6,000 years old get a say in politics now, it would be homicidally intolerable to let them get a say in designing the AIs which would rule us. <shudder>
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  26. #26
    You're safe there. No YEC is going to want us to be ruled by a godless AI, so would certainly abstain from having any input on its design.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  27. #27
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Either that, or they'd compromise and we'd end up with an AI that doesn't believe in evolution.
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  28. #28
    Cainistan. Be careful about the island size, you could get the fever (trapped, going in circles) and go mad.

    And did you hear that if too many people are on an island it could flip over and capsize?

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    Either that, or they'd compromise and we'd end up with an AI that doesn't believe in evolution.
    ... and an AI that ... believes in God?
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  30. #30
    Hmmm.... this is a conundrum. Well, the only sensible thing to do would be to make the AI a learning machine with base-line thinking modeled from my own brain. The programmers would have to be hand picked by me and sequestered from the rest of the world, and perhaps from each other, until the work is complete. Then the AI should be given complete control of the world's nuclear arsenals with the ability to launch on any target it chooses. That would probably fix everything.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

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