Relationship-related stuff (Hypothetical + Rule 12 involved)

[BalticSailor]

Yeeeeah, so, as some of you know, or, most likely, have forgotten I ever mentioned that, I'm a fan of quite a few webcomics. I was reading one tonight, and the situation in this particular strip was pretty much like: a girl got drunk and made out with some guy previously, and now regrets doing that, and he comforts her, and somewhere in the conversation says something along the lines of "It's not that I don't like you, it's just that we're friends, and I don't want to ruin that".

And while this isn't based on a real-life situation (at least, not one in my life, or in life of any of my friends, to best of my knowledge), it got me curious. It definetly is a fairly well-known phrase. Every now and then some character in a movie uses it, and it sounds sweet and poetic... But to what extent it can, technically, be a honest statement?

To clarify, the question is: what is it that relationship removes that causes the friendship to fall apart? Or, putting it the other way around, which part of the friendship is incompatible with relationship? What quality or parameter, necessary for friendship, must be removed for relationship to become possible?

Is there even such a thing? Or is that phrase just an excuse to avoid relationship without ruining friendship?

[LittleFuzzy]

Yeeeeah, so, as some of you know, or, most likely, have forgotten I ever mentioned that, I'm a fan of quite a few webcomics. I was reading one tonight, and the situation in this particular strip was pretty much like: a girl got drunk and made out with some guy previously, and now regrets doing that, and he comforts her, and somewhere in the conversation says something along the lines of "It's not that I don't like you, it's just that we're friends, and I don't want to ruin that".

And while this isn't based on a real-life situation (at least, not one in my life, or in life of any of my friends, to best of my knowledge), it got me curious. It definetly is a fairly well-known phrase. Every now and then some character in a movie uses it, and it sounds sweet and poetic... But to what extent it can, technically, be a honest statement?

To clarify, the question is: what is it that relationship removes that causes the friendship to fall apart? Or, putting it the other way around, which part of the friendship is incompatible with relationship? What quality or parameter, necessary for friendship, must be removed for relationship to become possible?

Is there even such a thing? Or is that phrase just an excuse to avoid relationship without ruining friendship?

I always got the impression, it's not the relationship that causes problems, but the good chance of the relationship ending at some point.

[Catgrrl]

I think, for me, in those situations it is the fear that you will not be compatible relationship wise, and thus the friendship ends due to awkwardness. And then you've lost that great friend. It's happened to me quite a few times.

But, yes, you can have great friendship in the relationships you have. My husband is my best friend; we laugh together, and comfort each other. We were very good friends before we started dating, and it scared the shit out of me that taking our relationship to the next level would destroy that friendship. And if it didn't work out, we'd not be able to continue being friends. And not being his friend would be devastating.

So, it's fear. And, often, it is used as an excuse.

[Aimless]

Imagine one of your lady friends. Now seriously imagine being with her all the time, living with her, sharing your domicile and your belongings with her, having to interact with her all the time even when one of you is being a total asshole, having to deal with her friends and family, planning your activities in a way that works for you both, taking some responsibility for her well-being, always living with the question of "where is this going??" and that of "what if this ends??" etc etc etc. doesn't have to be like that, but the pressures can be pretty high at times.

maybe it's easier if you both love one another in the same way...

[Aimless]

and what the fuck is happening to QC anyway??!

[GGT]

....
To clarify, the question is: what is it that relationship removes that causes the friendship to fall apart? Or, putting it the other way around, which part of the friendship is incompatible with relationship? What quality or parameter, necessary for friendship, must be removed for relationship to become possible?

Is there even such a thing? Or is that phrase just an excuse to avoid relationship without ruining friendship?

Friendships ARE relationships. Simply put, are you asking about "friends with privileges"?

Sex is what messes it up, it's another level of intimacy-in-your-face that's usually too intense for most people to handle. But it does make for good comic strips and comedy shows (Seinfeld for example).

If only we could find friends to fuck, and it didn't change the friendship? If only other people didn't get jealous or change the rules or keep score? Do we want to marry a friend, or mate with a lover?

I don't know, but then I married a man who was a friend, then a lover, then a mate and co-parent. It's easier to forgive friends for being jerkwads and morons, than forgiving a partner/mate.

I'm still friends with an old lover, but it took years to let the baggage fall away. I don't think my ex and I can ever return to "being friends", even though he left a CD on the bedside table of someone singing, "You just call out my name, and I'll be there, oh yes I will, to see you again....you've got a friend" when he moved out.

[BalticSailor]

I always got the impression, it's not the relationship that causes problems, but the good chance of the relationship ending at some point.

Indeed, but then again, friendship is not exactly guaranteed to last forever either. Shit happens, and friends become acquaintances or strangers even... There probably is some truth in that relationship failure might be a catalyst for that, but people can still be friends when relationship ends (well, some can, anyway). To me, personally, this doesn't seem to be a sufficient reason.

I think, for me, in those situations it is the fear that you will not be compatible relationship wise, and thus the friendship ends due to awkwardness. And then you've lost that great friend. It's happened to me quite a few times.

But, yes, you can have great friendship in the relationships you have. My husband is my best friend; we laugh together, and comfort each other. We were very good friends before we started dating, and it scared the shit out of me that taking our relationship to the next level would destroy that friendship. And if it didn't work out, we'd not be able to continue being friends. And not being his friend would be devastating.

So, it's fear. And, often, it is used as an excuse.

Understandable, though this fear seems to be based on some sort of evaluation (guesstimation?) of your potential relationship compatiblity. Which, in turn, suggests that the decision not to take the relationship to the next level and remain just friends, is based on, to put it simply, arithmetical comparison of pros and cons - and there are no real feelings involved. If someone you'd tell that phrase wasn't your friend in the first place, but, for example, someone you just met in a pub, you probably wouldn't consider a chance of relationship at all.

Imagine one of your lady friends. Now seriously imagine being with her all the time, living with her, sharing your domicile and your belongings with her, having to interact with her all the time even when one of you is being a total asshole, having to deal with her friends and family, planning your activities in a way that works for you both, taking some responsibility for her well-being, always living with the question of "where is this going??" and that of "what if this ends??" etc etc etc. doesn't have to be like that, but the pressures can be pretty high at times.

maybe it's easier if you both love one another in the same way...

That's not exactly where I'd use such a phrase, though. I think a better alternative in this case would be something along the lines of "Sorry, but we're friends, and I don't think we can become anything more than that". Perhaps needs a little polishing to sound more gentle, but still, it's less misleading. That "I don't want to ruin our friendship" line sort of suggests that you think you'd make a perfect couple, if it wasn't for your friendship - which, in my opinion, is not true more often than not.

If I, on the other hand, had feelings for that lady friend, I wouldn't be scared of those pressures - relationships generally involve them, anyway. But maybe that's just me.

and what the fuck is happening to QC anyway??!

Dunno, but it makes the storyline more interesting.
50 internet points for recognizing, by the way.

[Timbuk2]

I am struggling to imagine holding back on making a move on a friend I found attractive for not wishing to risk that friendship. The potential partnership could become so much more than the friendship. The risk for me would be worth it.

Though with the caveat that I would need the right vibes from her before I made such a move. Otherwise the risk is indeed too high.

[GGT]

Hey sailorboy, no comment to my post?

You'd be surprised at the longevity of deep friendships, that can go back to teen years and keep going. Dormant periods happen, re-connecting happens. You may also be surprised at the level of sexual tension among "friends" that never gets tested until middle-age. It's like stuff out of a novel or drama television.

I skipped my last HS reunion, I was too busy with a nervous breakdown, and didn't want to see strangers from my past. The group of friends (a clique if you will) was still tight, after all these years, I just didn't feel the need to see it play out in person (because my ex is part of that group). Marriages, divorces, having babies, careers, aging, illness, moving about the world.

Glad I missed the drama, too. Imagine my shock and weird sense of disgust when I learned my ex had slept with two women from our group during that "party". Like fucking ghosts. It wasn't just him either, there was plenty of partner shifting and strange returns to teen mentalities, shagging old friends where a tiny spark of attraction once lived.

Married couples planning a rendez-vous at the Drake with an old lover. Once shy and reserved nerds finding confidence (ego?) to get the cheerleader into bed. The ugly duckling that turned into a swan, and wanted to prove any guy would screw her NOW, but she couldn't get a date to the prom. The late bloomer geek who never had a date, but now that he's a millionaire, all the women fawn all over him.

Basically a bunch of middle class professionals trying to remake their high school experiences (we kept close during college years, too--always meeting up at Christmas for reunions), in the way they wanted to be "back then" but wouldn't/couldn't/didn't. When it was all said and done, and everyone returned to their "normality", I was inundated with stupid emails and phone calls....why weren't you there, so-and-so always had a crush on you and he's divorced now, he was asking about you.

They had a running tally of people who'd married former fellow students, it was almost incestuous. A large chunk of those folks left town, but then came back, and they have business ties and fucking golf together. At some point I wanted to make an interactive chart, of who was exchanging bodily fluids, holding tight to their old infatuations, hooking up on business trips with old flames.

I now live in a small town with the same types of histories, dating back to teen years. They go away to college and come back to "raise a family". Most of the movers and shakers can trace their roots back to HS and/or college. As an 'outsider' it took me a while to recognize what was happening. But when lawyers, elected officials, business leaders and power brokers show up at a party.....the gossip gets going.

Everyone has slept with everyone, or wants to. It'd be funny, like 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon, if it weren't so damned pathetic.

[BalticSailor]

Hey sailorboy, no comment to my post?

Sorry, I didn't notice it previously. Looks like you posted while I was typing my reply.

Now, looking at it, though, I can't really come up with any comment anyway - I don't think I really understand what you are trying to say.

[LittleFuzzy]

Indeed, but then again, friendship is not exactly guaranteed to last forever either. Shit happens, and friends become acquaintances or strangers even...

Well sure, nothing is forever. Basic entropy, all things end. I've always had the impression that most relationships end faster and with more acrimony than most friendships though. And not everyone prefers the burning bright and fast approach.

Understandable, though this fear seems to be based on some sort of evaluation (guesstimation?) of your potential relationship compatiblity. Which, in turn, suggests that the decision not to take the relationship to the next level and remain just friends, is based on, to put it simply, arithmetical comparison of pros and cons - and there are no real feelings involved. If someone you'd tell that phrase wasn't your friend in the first place, but, for example, someone you just met in a pub, you probably wouldn't consider a chance of relationship at all.

I've seen a lot of people choose to start dating others who they would not choose to hang out with otherwise. Friends generally share interests, but I've know plenty of couples where the only real shared interest is the other person.

[GGT]

Sorry, I didn't notice it previously. Looks like you posted while I was typing my reply.

Now, looking at it, though, I can't really come up with any comment anyway - I don't think I really understand what you are trying to say.

You asked, I answered. Things change over time, you're sweating the moment and not seeing the long term. Part and parcel of thinking old geezers don't have a clue? You may not want to ask your parents, so you ask here. Maybe you didn't like my answer....which is basically that what you do today will make your tomorrow. Good or bad, you have to decide.

You won't have the wisdom to put the pieces together, not yet. But you WILL carry your own choices into the future. They become not only the platform for making future decisions, but the memories you will carry the rest of your life. Some people are really good at compartmentalizing, some aren't. Not sure about the cognitive abilities to change one's stripes late in the game. You just need to figure out what kind of person you are now, and what kinds of things make you cry or smile. Chances are, those things will remain your whole life, as a constant.

Regret is a powerful emotion. It looks different in hind-sight. If you can let regrets and bad decisions "go" when you're young, the odds are that you can do that in the future. If you fret and worry as a youngster, chances are great you will be that way in adulthood. No matter what happens around you in culture or family, or if you take a pill or undergo extensive cognitive therapy.

If you can forgive others, you're ahead of the pack. If you can forgive yourself, then you are a saint. I'd probably buy what you know, if I could keep it going my whole life, because that's the hardest part of life for people like me. I failed somewhere, somehow, and keep kicking myself in the butt for being an emotional retard. Too trusting, too sentimental, too much TOO MUCH.

So now I am a hermit and recluse, for the most part. Because I used to be sociable and carefree and strong. Now I'm afraid and paralyzed by my past optimism, unwilling to trust anyone, let alone my own instincts. So badly burnt that I don't even have scars yet, just irritated tissue and nerves years later. I operate on doubt and suspicion now, and regret, which is really lame and destructive.

I loved your initial question though. Newlyweds like to talk about marrying their best friend, it's very romantic. New parents like to talk about a united front during child-rearing years, it's practical. Elder couples like to talk about loyalty and commitment, it's sturdy and reassuring.

But it's really all a crap shoot and gambling with your soul. Be careful what you ask for.

[BalticSailor]

Well, it sort of looks like you answered a question I never asked.

I really meant it when I said it was a hypothetical question, so it's not related to my life at this point. Your answer, while a great piece of advice as such, is (unless I misunderstood you) about handling such situations emotionally, and the importance of such decisions. The way I meant my original question to be viewed was... something inbetween philosophy and grammar, really.
Thank you for your replies, though.

[Aimless]

If I, on the other hand, had feelings for that lady friend, I wouldn't be scared of those pressures - relationships generally involve them, anyway.

Could be easier to look out for your own well-being in a relationship with a non-friend. You know, you've an easier time saying so long, should it become necessary.

50 internet points for recognizing, by the way.

thing is, i just assumed it was QC before went to confirm... haven't even looked at QC in like a million years =P

[GGT]

Something between philosophy and grammar?

Your hypothetical was like saying hey, I've got this friend who wants to talk about sex, with friends....hypothetically.

I used too many words, eh. Read it again---cliff notes---sex has consequences. Sex with friends isn't some safe way, it's actually harder. Regret can work both ways. That's why it's tricky. Poets and song lyricists write about it all the time, wistfully. To have loved and lost is better than never to have loved at all? The one that got away? If I could do it over.....?

[Catgrrl]

I guess my post did sound more like calculations, but I guess that's how I work.

If you don't weigh out the pros and cons in every aspect of your life, you are bound to make stupid ass mistakes.

I've lost guy friends because we gave in to some silly fleeting moment of physical attraction, and it was too awkward afterward. Gone is that friend who I used to hang out with, and something is lost.

But I was always more of "one of the guys" anyways. Sometimes that got blurred after a night of drinking, or a vulnerable moment, and it could never go back to what it was before. I couldn't be one of the guys again.


Anyway, GGT's post got me thinking: Why do people bother with HS reunions? I still live in the town I grew up in, and other than two or three people, I have no desire to see anyone from that part of my life. I've moved on, I don't know why others can't. But maybe my mentality is due to living in a large military town, where people come and go all of the time. I have heard of situations like GGT described in my high school, and I never understood it. People who live in the distant past can't really move forward. It's like their lives got stuck there, mentally 18 yrs old forever.

[CitizenCain]

But it's really all a crap shoot and gambling with your soul. Be careful what you ask for.

Enh, it's not like your soul actually does anything anyway. It's a vestigial organ, like the appendix or the forebrain.

[Flixy]

I guess it's because it's very hard to go back to being just friends after a relation, because usually one side will still be in love, or hurt, or something like that. I'm only on good terms with two of my exes, and that took at least a year with each. Then again, if you already are friends you know eachother very well already, which tends to make the best relations.
In my experience it's perfectly possible to have a (one night?) fling with a good friend and not feel awkward about it.

[littlelolligagged]

In my experience it's perfectly possible to have a (one night?) fling with a good friend and not feel awkward about it.

Damned right it is.

Fuck buddies are awesome.

[Nessus]

50 internet points for recognizing, by the way.

It's a fairly well-known webcomic

[GGT]

Anyway, GGT's post got me thinking: Why do people bother with HS reunions? I still live in the town I grew up in, and other than two or three people, I have no desire to see anyone from that part of my life. I've moved on, I don't know why others can't. But maybe my mentality is due to living in a large military town, where people come and go all of the time. I have heard of situations like GGT described in my high school, and I never understood it. People who live in the distant past can't really move forward. It's like their lives got stuck there, mentally 18 yrs old forever.

Maybe it depends on the mobility of the people over time, or if they kept in touch? There are also college groups (mostly hellenic frat/sorority) that have reunions. There can be a certain appeal to reliving life as an 18 yr old, almost like a mid-life crisis we see all the time. Flashy convertibles, hair plugs, Viagra, trophy wife, cabana boy, breast augmentation and face lifts....

My best friend is from HS but we both moved away and kept in touch, we even had family vacations together over the years. My ex still visits them every summer and is 'buddies' with her husband. She goes back for holidays b/c her family still lives there, ditto for my ex. Lots of people do that. If the older generations stay, the younger ones come back to visit. As they get older and feeble, adult kids have to choose if they'll move gramps to their state, or relocate where gramps has familiarity. It's a tough choice.

[Catgrrl]

That's fair, I guess. High school wasn't the high or low point of my life; maybe that is why I dismiss it so.
I tend also to detach myself from people I haven't heard from in a long time, so maybe it is me that is the odd one.

I do have a few high school buddies on Facebook, mostly just because of mild curiosity as to how they are, what their kids look like, etc. I don't think I'd ever meet up with any of them though. It's been 12 years and I'm at a different stage in my life, no need to really relive those moments. I do have two friends I still talk to regularly, and meet with once a month or so.

Anyway, I realize I've moved off the topic.

I've never been good with the friends with benefits angle, and I think it's because or what Flixy said: usually one member of the party has more than friends feelings, and get hurt in the process.