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Thread: An institutional revolution in North Carolina

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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Default An institutional revolution in North Carolina

    Or is it a revolt?

    Or is it just revolting?

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2...democracy.html

    You decide.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    I busted out laughing when I read about the schedule for chairing the state board of elections.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

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    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    Half of these proposals could be somewhat reasonable, except most of them I read and think "how is this the system in the first place?" Amazing that the state is generally a good place to live with quasi blue-state levels of government dysfunction.

    Minus three points for citing Slate, which now prompts me with a splash screen asking me to donate money to them to resist Trump.

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    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    See again about normalizing illiberal behavior. The point isn't that these policies are reasonable. It's that massive changes are passed to keep a Democrat from having the same powers as a Republican.
    Hope is the denial of reality

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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

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    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    I share the sentiment, but that's some crappy "evidence."
    Hope is the denial of reality

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    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    North Carolina wasn't the only state in their model. If your model suggests places like Rwanda and Cuba have the same level of democratic freedoms as several US states, you may want to check your model.

    Also:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Ivory Tower Screed
    First, legislative power does not depend on the votes of the people. One party wins just half the votes but 100 percent of the power. The GOP has a huge legislative majority giving it absolute veto-proof control with that tiny advantage in the popular vote. The other party wins just a handful of votes less and 0 percent of the legislative power. This is above and beyond the way in which state legislators are detached from democratic accountability as a result of the rigged district boundaries. They are beholden to their party bosses, not the voters. Seventy-six of the 170 (45 percent) incumbent state legislators were not even opposed by the other party in the general election.

    Second, democracies do not limit their citizens’ rights on the basis of their born identities. However, this is exactly what the North Carolina legislature did through House Bill 2 (there are an estimated 38,000 transgender Tar Heels), targeted attempts to reduce African-American and Latino access to the vote and pernicious laws to constrain the ability of women to act as autonomous citizens.

    Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/...#storylink=cpy

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    North Carolina wasn't the only state in their model. If your model suggests places like Rwanda and Cuba have the same level of democratic freedoms as several US states, you may want to check your model.

    Also:



    Ignoring this specific case, I think there's an interesting issue here. We see in a number of countries a 'winner takes all' mentality that has not, by and large, featured prominently in US discourse. That is, as some call it, 'majoritarianism', and I think it's an exceedingly dangerous way to govern. There are protections against majoritarianism, of course - including a free and vigorous press, substantial checks and balances working at different time scales, efforts focused on avoiding identity politics, etc. But it is not unreasonable to be concerned about it in principle. Certainly the case in NC seems concerning though I don't want to wade into the specific question of how it ranks compared to other democracies.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

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    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Hope is the denial of reality

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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate..._overhaul.html

    These so-called judges need to be dealt with before they get innocent American patriots killed.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    efforts focused on avoiding identity politics, etc.
    Well one major party missed the boat on that one...

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    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Ignoring this specific case, I think there's an interesting issue here. We see in a number of countries a 'winner takes all' mentality that has not, by and large, featured prominently in US discourse. That is, as some call it, 'majoritarianism', and I think it's an exceedingly dangerous way to govern. There are protections against majoritarianism, of course - including a free and vigorous press, substantial checks and balances working at different time scales, efforts focused on avoiding identity politics, etc. But it is not unreasonable to be concerned about it in principle. Certainly the case in NC seems concerning though I don't want to wade into the specific question of how it ranks compared to other democracies.
    I took it as a crank rant about democracy, but I take more issue with people who call voter ID anti-democratic.

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    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...d-the-research

    That depends entirely on whether you're a white supremacist.
    Hope is the denial of reality

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    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    So if conservative voters are more likely to have IDs, are we to believe that liberalism leads to laziness and inability to procure an ID? The US is pretty exceptional in terms of how easy it is to vote in some places without an ID. Which is why the bi-partisan Carter-Baker commission after the 2000 election suggested that all voters be required to register with a photo ID based on the federal Real ID standards. Ya know, the same standards that we require for people to get into an airport.

    Where's the drumbeat of accusations of racism and access limitations to an already-pricey item like air travel?

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    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Dread, no gives a rat's ass how easy you think something is. There's definitive proof that voter ID laws both A) reduce turnout, and B) reduce it disproportionately for African Americans. That's a pretty large cost. What is the benefit of causing this harm? Other than screwing the Democrats.
    Hope is the denial of reality

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    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    Considering that 80% of Americans support voter ID (in addition to other ease-of-access provisions), it's clear that the rats asses are abundantly in favor of ID. But reasonable election reform is stymied by left-wing race baiting.

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    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Considering that 80% of Americans support voter ID (in addition to other ease-of-access provisions), it's clear that the rats asses are abundantly in favor of ID. But reasonable election reform is stymied by left-wing race baiting.
    And more than 80% of southern voters supported Jim Crow. I didn't realize this was a popularity contest.
    Hope is the denial of reality

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    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    Well, at least you are openly demonstrating your fundamental hostility to democracy.

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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    And more than 80% of southern voters supported Jim Crow. I didn't realize this was a popularity contest.
    Getting people to use ID they already have is exactly like segregation yes.

    You live in a crazy world of denial where you think it is perfectly normal to need ID to commute, travel, buy alcohol or over the counter medicine or buy a film but to use it to vote is the same thing as segregation laws.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Dread, no gives a rat's ass how easy you think something is. There's definitive proof that voter ID laws both A) reduce turnout, and B) reduce it disproportionately for African Americans. That's a pretty large cost. What is the benefit of causing this harm? Other than screwing the Democrats.
    Source please. Shouldn't be difficult if there is "definitive proof"
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Getting people to use ID they already have is exactly like segregation yes.
    It's a comment on the problems with the argument used. 80% support is impressive, but but I don't believe support is anywhere near that high among those who don't have valid photo ID. The high level of support doesn't automatically negate the problems--if anything, it is partly a reflection of those problems. Dread's position may be consistent. He wasn't a big fan of how marriage equality came about, for example. And no doubt he would have liked to see the US do away with the electoral college as well as congress, given the low approval for both those institutions

    Jim Crow is of course a comparison that immediately leaps to mind not simply because it was despicable but also because of how these laws are deliberately being used to reduce the influence black people have in elections, along with gerrymandering as well as more blatant suppression tactics.

    You live in a crazy world of denial where you think it is perfectly normal to need ID to commute, travel, buy alcohol or over the counter medicine or buy a film but to use it to vote is the same thing as segregation laws.
    I don't need ID to commute. ID for travelling may be a requirement from private companies and from the country to which I'm travelling, but I don't need an ID in order to travel within my own country. Alcohol is an excellent example of a non-essential product that can be obtained with the help of other people if one can't obtain it on one's own (and, let's face it, many people can get booze without ID). Someone can buy OTC medications for me. I don't need to buy or rent films, but if I really wanted one I could ask someone to get it for me. Most importantly, I don't need photo ID to participate in the democratic process and try to ensure that my views and needs receive adequate consideration from my legislators. And on those occasions when I may find myself inconvenienced by not having ID I know that there was no evil intent behind the requirement, which cannot be said for many Republican districts.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Well, at least you are openly demonstrating your fundamental hostility to democracy.
    Well, I must say it smells a bit fishy if people don't want to have mandatory ID cards yet demand identification for voting. Because that is exactly the combination of circumstances that disenfranchises the poor and minority voters.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Source please. Shouldn't be difficult if there is "definitive proof"
    a lazy response for a subject thats been covered on this and the other board NUMEROUS times deserves one in kind

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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    It's a comment on the problems with the argument used. 80% support is impressive, but but I don't believe support is anywhere near that high among those who don't have valid photo ID. The high level of support doesn't automatically negate the problems--if anything, it is partly a reflection of those problems. Dread's position may be consistent. He wasn't a big fan of how marriage equality came about, for example. And no doubt he would have liked to see the US do away with the electoral college as well as congress, given the low approval for both those institutions
    I've not seen any source yet to show these alleged high numbers of people without any valid form of ID. Especially when many proposals include offering free ID.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Well, I must say it smells a bit fishy if people don't want to have mandatory ID cards yet demand identification for voting. Because that is exactly the combination of circumstances that disenfranchises the poor and minority voters.
    You do realise every single American already has mandatory ID from the state?

    My objections to ID cards were never to do with the state having our IDs (something it already has) but to do with the specific proposal we had here which included the state taking everybody's biometric data - something that they currently only have for criminals.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #25
    All Worship Ragnarök Loki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Well, at least you are openly demonstrating your fundamental hostility to democracy.
    At least you're demonstrating your opposition to constitutional rule. I don't want a mob rule version of democracy, unlike you and Chavez, Putin, and Erdogan.
    Hope is the denial of reality

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    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Getting people to use ID they already have is exactly like segregation yes.

    You live in a crazy world of denial where you think it is perfectly normal to need ID to commute, travel, buy alcohol or over the counter medicine or buy a film but to use it to vote is the same thing as segregation laws.

    You don't need an id to commute, you don't need one to travel in the US (unless you're flying and plenty don't fly, particularly among the marginal population we're talking about), you don't REALLY need one to buy alcohol or over the counter medicine, and who needs an id to buy a film?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

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    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I've not seen any source yet to show these alleged high numbers of people without any valid form of ID. Especially when many proposals include offering free ID.
    You do realise every single American already has mandatory ID from the state?
    There is no mandatory id in any state in the Union. A state that tried to introduce such a requirement would probably be gigged by the courts for it, in fact.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    There is no mandatory id in any state in the Union. A state that tried to introduce such a requirement would probably be gigged by the courts for it, in fact.
    It's not mandatory to have a birth certificate? Or a social security number? I thought both were mandatory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    Local talking head LittleFuzzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    It's not mandatory to have a birth certificate? Or a social security number? I thought both were mandatory.
    A birth certificate is not an id, and while one may be issued for you at birth, it is not something you are required to keep or maintain. A SSN probably doesn't really qualify either (though it could with a few adjustments) but is completely irrelevant since that's FEDERAL, not state.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

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    Senior Member RandBlade's Avatar
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    How is a birth certificate not an ID? ID is not something you are required to keep or maintain. For employment here for every single person I employ I am required to take forms of ID - standard for British citizens being either a passport or a birth certificate AND paperwork showing an NI number (out SSN equivalent). Without either a passport or birth certificate [or equivalent] it isn't possible to legally get a job in this country.

    As for it being federal that doesn't address what I said. I said "the state" as in the government/nation state not as in one of the 50 states. I don't see why it matters if it is federal or state. Confusion for the fact that state has two separate definitions here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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