Taking second language skills to the next level

[wiggin]

We have a pretty polyglot crowd here, so I'm hoping you have some useful suggestions. As many of you know, I am a native English speaker with a reasonable grasp of Hebrew. I took Hebrew classes throughout grade school and high school and have pretty good 'book learning' in the language, especially as you get to older texts. I have never been as comfortable with my conversational skills - I can get by in a social interaction in Hebrew, but get caught up by some vocabulary and grammatical problems on occasion. More importantly, I tend to express myself with a great deal of sophistication and specificity in English, so it really pains me to stumble along with a limited proficiency in Hebrew (this is also tied to the fact that this was always my worst class by a large margin - every other class was always an easy A, even classes that used Hebrew, but my Hebrew language classes actually required work to eke out an A-).

Due to a variety of reasons, my wife and I have chosen to raise our daughter speaking to her primarily in Hebrew. English is still the language of our household (i.e. how my wife and I speak to each other), and she picks up plenty of English and Spanish at school, but when we address her, it's mostly in Hebrew (we read books and sing songs in both Hebrew and English, though). This has borne fruit - most of the words she uses with us (other than some specific phrases) are in Hebrew, and she clearly understands the correspondence between the three languages (e.g. numbers, colors, nouns, etc.). I'm hopeful that the foundation we are laying will make her much more comfortable in the language when she is an adult, with a near-native fluency and comfort.

The only issue is that she is now starting to talk a lot more (she is two years old), and I can see the time looming when it is going to get a lot harder to keep up with her. It's easy to discuss our normal daily activities with her (generally revolving around toys, travel, food, sleep, and diapers), so I don't need to have a very sophisticated handle on the language and don't need to be able to discuss complex abstract thoughts. But I can see that sooner rather than later, she is going to need a lot more elaborate discussions - things like discussing feelings and appropriate behavior, and the questions that have increasingly complicated answers, etc. We have very specific opinions about how we, as parents, would like to handle these sorts of things, but they require a facility with Hebrew that I do not, currently, possess.

So, long story short: do you have any useful strategies to move from 'limited technical proficiency' in a language to a much more fluid and sophisticated handle on the language? I want to be able to discuss anything from science to philosophy in terms a child can understand (which, IMO, is almost harder than just learning how to do it with adults in a foreign language). Book learning isn't going to do it (though I have increased my consumption of modern Hebrew publications recently), and I rarely have the opportunity to converse in Hebrew with anyone other than my wife, who has similar handicaps (her conversational Hebrew is better but her book learning is atrocious). I feel like if we slip into English more and more, she will end up forgetting all of the Hebrew we've been teaching her - after all, we're already fighting a losing battle against school and American culture - but I don't want to compromise our other parenting priorities to I can teach her a stunted and simplified version of a foreign language.

What strategies have you used to improve your ability to converse at a high level in a second language?

[Flixy]

For me that'd be English, basically Internet, books, tv and movies did the trick for me (plus I had to write reports etc in it). And talking to people in the language fairly often.

I imagine that's all a bit harder with Hebrew though.

[Aimless]

Grandparents, Hebrew babysitter, increase your own proficiency.

[wiggin]

For me that'd be English, basically Internet, books, tv and movies did the trick for me (plus I had to write reports etc in it). And talking to people in the language fairly often.

I imagine that's all a bit harder with Hebrew though.

Hmm. So, yes, obviously bits of this are harder in Hebrew - though I don't discount the challenge most of the world faces in learning as annoying a language as English, there is at least the advantage of it being ubiquitous in media and business, making exposure to it on a variety of levels a near-constant. For Hebrew, we do consume Hebrew media (both written and video), though I could definitely do more. My biggest issue is that the video media (TV shows and movies, mostly) does not help with sophistication very much - as with English language entertainment, the language use is fairly casual and focused on social interactions, not complex discussions. Written stuff (mostly journalism and books) is a bit better, but it doesn't have the back-and-forth flavor you get from watching conversations. Perhaps I could watch or listen to news programs or courses in Hebrew; harder to arrange and keep up with, but maybe I could get something for train listening.

Do you have a sense of how you turned your colloquial 'sitcom' English into the much more comprehensive 'politics/science/philosophy' English that I see you use to good effect here?

[Flixy]

I'd say mostly reading. It helps that from university on about 90% of study books were in English (more technical English though) and we had to write most of our reports and essays in English simply because the teachers often weren't Dutch. I honestly think posting on forums like this also helped. I've also read a decent amount of literature in English, also my sister's fiancé graduated in English literature so they usually get me good books. I'm probably in a slightly advantaged situation because my mum has worked as an English interpreter and used to proofread my writings.

Also I think you underestimate how much of the underlying skills translate to other languages, for example a lot of style things are common in multiple languages. Hell, both English and Dutch use a lot of the same ones I learned in Latin, and a lot of the Dutch ones work well in English. The grammar and spelling may be vastly different but style, structuring etc translates well. I do think that even the not so sophisticated sources will teach you how to have the sophisticated conversations as well, even if it's just because the language feels more natural. You may be looking for some words but you'll get your point across, and in turn often learn the words you needed. When I as a 13ish year old first tried reading LOTR in English, I also didn't understand a lot of they more complex (and in the case of LOTR, archaic) words but I still understood the sentence, which in turn teaches you the words.

By now 75+% of my communication every day at work is in English, I date a non Dutch girl so I speak English with her, and i regularly write and proofread in English. Practice makes perfect, and I do think even the non sophisticated sources will at least make the language feel natural to you. For me the turning point was when, like with your native language, you don't think about grammar when talking but it 'feels' right or wrong to phrase something a certain way. You'll still be wrong on occasion, but keep in mind that it's perfectly fine to be wrong every now and then, most people are frequently wrong in their native language. As it feels more natural you will get more relaxed and because you're less focused on what you are saying, it will be much more easy to talk more sophisticated. Sure, there will be the odd incorrect word and grammar mistake, but once you're comfortable you'll easily user proper style simply because you're not focused on every single word anymore.

And especially conversations with people greatly help, do you have social connections you could use? I imagine there must be groups in your area where Hebrew is spoken, perhaps you can join one. Or travel more to Israel?

If you don't mind me asking, why would you want your daughter to be a native speaker of a language that's native to neither of you nor the native language of where she's growing up? Just curious here. Feel free to ignore if it's personal

[wiggin]

I'd say mostly reading. It helps that from university on about 90% of study books were in English (more technical English though) and we had to write most of our reports and essays in English simply because the teachers often weren't Dutch. I honestly think posting on forums like this also helped. I've also read a decent amount of literature in English, also my sister's fiancé graduated in English literature so they usually get me good books. I'm probably in a slightly advantaged situation because my mum has worked as an English interpreter and used to proofread my writings.

Hmm, guess I just need to get more reading done, then. Definitely not going to get it from coursework.

Also I think you underestimate how much of the underlying skills translate to other languages, for example a lot of style things are common in multiple languages. Hell, both English and Dutch use a lot of the same ones I learned in Latin, and a lot of the Dutch ones work well in English. The grammar and spelling may be vastly different but style, structuring etc translates well. I do think that even the not so sophisticated sources will teach you how to have the sophisticated conversations as well, even if it's just because the language feels more natural. You may be looking for some words but you'll get your point across, and in turn often learn the words you needed. When I as a 13ish year old first tried reading LOTR in English, I also didn't understand a lot of they more complex (and in the case of LOTR, archaic) words but I still understood the sentence, which in turn teaches you the words.

Yeah, Hebrew and English are far, far, more distinct than Dutch and English. Totally different alphabet, etymologies, etc. Oh, modern Hebrew words are often borrowed from European languages, but the base language is so ancient that it predates Latin and Greek, for the most part. If I knew Arabic or Aramaic better I'd have a bit leg up (the languages are very similar in terms of etymology/alphabet/grammar) but English doesn't really help me much. They are very different languages.

By now 75+% of my communication every day at work is in English, I date a non Dutch girl so I speak English with her, and i regularly write and proofread in English. Practice makes perfect, and I do think even the non sophisticated sources will at least make the language feel natural to you. For me the turning point was when, like with your native language, you don't think about grammar when talking but it 'feels' right or wrong to phrase something a certain way. You'll still be wrong on occasion, but keep in mind that it's perfectly fine to be wrong every now and then, most people are frequently wrong in their native language. As it feels more natural you will get more relaxed and because you're less focused on what you are saying, it will be much more easy to talk more sophisticated. Sure, there will be the odd incorrect word and grammar mistake, but once you're comfortable you'll easily user proper style simply because you're not focused on every single word anymore.

The last two years have actually helped in this regard - even if the language is fairly simple for talking to a little kid, the practice has definitely given me some better instincts, especially on verb conjugations (of which Hebrew has far, far, too many). Part of my problem is that I do not sound like a native because my book learning actually gives me a much more grammatically accurate take on the language - for example, I occasionally actually use the imperative tense while no Israeli ever would, or I think more carefully about adjective-noun agreement on word genders, etc. That, combined with the fact that I have a much better grounding in ancient Hebrew than modern Hebrew, occasionally makes me sound funny - sometimes archaic, sometimes just very formal/fancy-pants (which I probably also sound like in English, come to think of it). Working on making a more useful colloquial working knowledge of the language while simultaneously improving the sophistication of my vocabulary is somewhat working at odds with one another.

And especially conversations with people greatly help, do you have social connections you could use? I imagine there must be groups in your area where Hebrew is spoken, perhaps you can join one. Or travel more to Israel?

So we have some Israeli family friends and we have made a rule that they can only speak Hebrew in our daughter's presence; it's hard for me to do the same with them for obvious reasons, but I can work on it. Certainly I use them as a sounding board for grammar and vocabulary questions. We're also obviously enrolling her in programs that give her some Hebrew exposure, but the reality is that no good ones exist here that will really lead to native proficiency - the best ones are merely supplements and assume that the main language at home is Hebrew (for e.g. expat Israelis). Travel to Israel is expensive, so we only go once every year or two.

If you don't mind me asking, why would you want your daughter to be a native speaker of a language that's native to neither of you nor the native language of where she's growing up? Just curious here. Feel free to ignore if it's personal

I won't go into all of the reasons here, but a few that stand out:

First, bi- or tri-lingual children tend to perform better on a variety of metrics and it improves their ability to learn more languages in the future. Given the execrable nature of US foreign language training, combined with my own challenges in second language skills growing up, we'd like to give her a leg up. (Our physician actually is very approving of our choices in this regard because of this benefit.) Obviously we wouldn't do this at the cost of her native English proficiency, but we have no concerns on that front.

Second, we have Israeli family (nearly everyone on my wife's side), and we'd like to ease her ability to communicate with them. The people in our generation generally have acceptable social English, but older generations not as much; we'd like her to be able to communicate well with them.

Third - and this is where I'll get a little vague - there are various social and cultural reasons why, as she grows up, it will benefit her to have excellent Hebrew skills. It will ease her path in schooling, give her a much more sophisticated take on important texts she will be exposed to, and make the option of moving to Israel - should she ever choose to do so - much more viable. My parents, while they cared deeply about our educations, did not themselves have very good Hebrew skills (of my American family, I almost certainly have the best), and I think that a more aggressive attempt on my part to improve my own and impart them to my children will be very beneficial to her.

[BalticSailor]

Personally, I remember I picked up Russian as my second language as a kid just by playing with Russian kids from our apartment complex. My family didn't use Russian in their everyday lives (they're fluent, though, as anyone of their age living in ex-USSR territories is), so I didn't learn much from them. So, other kids of approximately the same age, speaking the necessary language, is the best bet, according to my experience. Not sure if this helps you any.

[Hazir]

I don't think it's going to work. If I understand your post what you are trying to do is to get your daughter to be a hebrew speaker. Whatever your reasons for that may be you simply lack what it takes. You won't be able to impress on her the language in all its subtlety and with you living in the US you also miss a backup system that offers sufficient immersion. I also doubt you are doing her a favor with your attempts; she runs the serious risk of ending up with a less than perfect command of any of the languages you want her to learn.
I'm comfortable in Dutch, German (which I had picked up so subconsiously that I surprised myself by realizing I could read German without being taught the language) an English, my Turkish is good enough to have conversations and sometimes I actually manage to make jokes in the language. Finally Spanish and French, those have become very rusty; I can still use basics but a real fluent conversation is beyond my grasp these days.

[wiggin]

I don't think it's going to work. If I understand your post what you are trying to do is to get your daughter to be a hebrew speaker. Whatever your reasons for that may be you simply lack what it takes. You won't be able to impress on her the language in all its subtlety and with you living in the US you also miss a backup system that offers sufficient immersion.

I'm not trying to make her as fluent as a native; we'd only get that if we lived in Israel. I just want her to have much better fluency than I have: an instinctive grasp of grammar, a better vocabulary, and better comfort in conversational settings. Also, she's going to get at least as comprehensive a schooling as I got in Hebrew (which will likely involve somewhere around 14 or 15 years of Hebrew-language subjects for a few hours a day), and even I am a Hebrew speaker. I just want her to be more comfortable with the language.

I also doubt you are doing her a favor with your attempts; she runs the serious risk of ending up with a less than perfect command of any of the languages you want her to learn.
I'm comfortable in Dutch, German (which I had picked up so subconsiously that I surprised myself by realizing I could read German without being taught the language) an English, my Turkish is good enough to have conversations and sometimes I actually manage to make jokes in the language. Finally Spanish and French, those have become very rusty; I can still use basics but a real fluent conversation is beyond my grasp these days.

I'm curious why you think this will be a bad thing; the only other language we particularly want her to learn is English, and she will have zero problem picking up native fluency in that. She's also picking up some Spanish from her teachers, and we'll probably encourage her to take another foreign language in school just because it's a good idea (my current favorites would be Mandarin or Arabic), but I only really care if she has native fluency in English and advanced non-native fluency in Hebrew. She already understands most things said to her in either language and clearly understands the correspondence between nouns in each language for the same object; I'm not worried that being exposed to a few hours of Hebrew language every day will stunt her English development.

Given the relatively large number of languages in which you are comfortable, do you have suggestions for how you were able to achieve such proficiency? I'm obviously looking for ideas.

[Aimless]

You won't be able to impress on her the language in all its subtlety and with you living in the US you also miss a backup system that offers sufficient immersion.

What he can do, however, is lay the groundwork for future autodidactic development.

I also doubt you are doing her a favor with your attempts; she runs the serious risk of ending up with a less than perfect command of any of the languages you want her to learn.

This is a commonly held belief for which the evidence is ambiguous at best. Also, have you spoken with any people at all, lately? Being an imperfect speaker would put her on par with most speakers of either language.


Wiggin, are there any decent English-Hebrew bilingual schools where you live? Do you know of any programmes that bring together kids from different countries eg. over skype? Do you guys watch any cultural content in Hebrew, eg. TV-shows, movies etc? Can she read Hebrew?

[Hazir]

Anecdotal I will admit but I know at least two people who have problems with the article in Dutch, one brought up in a mixed English/Dutch situation with the parents being Dutch and one in a Dutch/Turkish situation with the parents being Turkish. I never actually spoke English with the first one, but can confirm that the Turkish of number two is as mediocre as his Dutch. I know a recent arrival from Morrocco who spoke Arabic and good French before he moved to Holland, who managed to learn to speak fluent accent-free Dutch in under 3 years.

[wiggin]

Anecdotal I will admit but I know at least two people who have problems with the article in Dutch, one brought up in a mixed English/Dutch situation with the parents being Dutch and one in a Dutch/Turkish situation with the parents being Turkish. I never actually spoke English with the first one, but can confirm that the Turkish of number two is as mediocre as his Dutch. I know a recent arrival from Morrocco who spoke Arabic and good French before he moved to Holland, who managed to learn to speak fluent accent-free Dutch in under 3 years.

I know a lot of Americans who were raised in homes speaking exclusively a language other than English and they all have native, accentless fluency in English (the exception being those who immigrated to the US when they were older children; some of them have small idiosyncrasies that betray non-native origin, though they are subtle). You can blame media and school for this. We are raising our daughter in a home that speaks half English and half Hebrew; it is also highly likely that she will read at least as much English books as I and my wife did growing up. I have no concern about her English skills.