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Thread: They sure are worried about her...

  1. #1

    Default They sure are worried about her...

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-fr...KBN1691A0?il=0

    "European Union lawmakers lifted the EU parliamentary immunity of French presidential candidate Marine Le Pen on Thursday for tweeting pictures of Islamic State violence.

    Le Pen, who leads her National Front party in the European legislature, is under investigation in France for posting three graphic images of Islamic State executions on Twitter in December 2015, including the beheading of American journalist James Foley.

    Le Pen's immunity shielded her from prosecution. By lifting it, after a request from the French judiciary, the parliament is allowing any eventual legal action against her."

    The offence being considered is "publishing violent images", which under certain circumstances can carry a penalty of three years in prison and a fine of 75,000 euros ($78,930).

    She has denounced the legal proceedings against her as political interference in the campaign and called for a moratorium on judicial investigations until the election period has passed.

    Le Pen has already seen her earnings as MEP cut for a different case involving alleged misuse of EU funds.

    Polls say Le Pen will win the first of the two election rounds but lose in the runoff. They also show that her legal battles seem to have little effect on her supporters.

    The vote on Thursday by a large show of hands in the plenary of the EU Parliament confirmed a preliminary decision taken on Tuesday by the legal affairs committee of the EU legislature.

    In the report underpinning parliament's decision, eurosceptic 5 Star Movement lawmaker Laura Ferrara said that although the images posted by Le Pen were easily accessible on several websites, "this does not alter the fact that their violent nature is likely to undermine human dignity".

    Le Pen's move was seen as not appropriate for a member of the European Parliament, the report said.

    Ferrara also said that there was no reason to think Le Pen was being persecuted judicially because "the speed at which legal proceedings have been taken against Marine Le Pen is comparable to the pace of other proceedings in matters relating to the press and other media".

    Le Pen's immunity has been lifted before, in 2013, by the EU parliament. She was then prosecuted in 2015 with "incitement to discrimination over people's religious beliefs", for comparing Muslims praying in public to the Nazi occupation of France during World War Two. Prosecutors eventually recommended the charges be dropped."

    Not being all that knowledgeable about French politics I don't know all the details but I find publishing a photo like this is grounds for three years in prison. I get that in many places in Europe there isn't true freedom of speech like in America but it just seems crazy.

  2. #2
    If a Muslim posted those videos, what's the likelihood that you'd be calling for their head?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    If a Muslim posted those videos, what's the likelihood that you'd be calling for their head?
    That depends a lot on the context. Just airing the video shouldn't be a crime however if it was aired in a way such as "hey these people are cool look what at how awesome jihad is" I would fully expect the relevant government agencies to investigate those individuals and set up a sting like our FBI does.

  4. #4
    I.e. Muslims don't get free speech. Got it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action
    Hope is the denial of reality

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I.e. Muslims don't get free speech. Got it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action
    Except that isn't what I said at all. No crime = no charges. I'm trying to wrap my head around what you actually think should happen. Do you think Muslims who go onto youtube and talk about how awesome jihad is who happen to live in America should not be investigated when they do that?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Except that isn't what I said at all. No crime = no charges. I'm trying to wrap my head around what you actually think should happen. Do you think Muslims who go onto youtube and talk about how awesome jihad is who happen to live in America should not be investigated when they do that?
    I'm saying you're basing the legality of an action on the perpetrator's religion. You're also quick to condemn limitations on free speech against white Christians, but are not so fast to condemn the same limitations against Muslims. Arresting someone for saying "jihad is cool" would violate the imminent lawless action test.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I'm saying you're basing the legality of an action on the perpetrator's religion. You're also quick to condemn limitations on free speech against white Christians, but are not so fast to condemn the same limitations against Muslims. Arresting someone for saying "jihad is cool" would violate the imminent lawless action test.
    Investigating != arresting.

  8. #8
    Except he's not basing it on anyone's religion, he said "airing the video shouldn't be a crime".

    Le Pen is vile but she did this to make a political point. This was graphic but she did it as political speech and censoring political speech is more chilling than sharing a video of somebody else's violence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #9
    Minus the part where sharing this kind of a video is illegal in France, and it's illegal for Lewkosian "fear the Muslims" reasons. And suddenly Le Pen and Lewk are outraged when the law is applied to a non-Muslim. As for Le Pen caring about free speech: when did you become an avid RT viewer?
    Last edited by Loki; 03-04-2017 at 09:22 PM.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Investigating != arresting.
    You want people investigated for voicing protected speech?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  11. #11
    Yes of course. People should be investigated for suspicious behaviour and that includes aggressive but protected speech. Has always been that way.

    You think people should be able to glorify jihad and not be investigated?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    You want people investigated for voicing protected speech?
    Yup. Be they Muslims advocating for jihad or white supremacists talking about how the only good black guy is a dead one. I expect anti-terrorism to do more than simply react to terrorist attacks AFTER they happen. Are you seriously advocating that someone praising jihad shouldn't be looked into?

  13. #13
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Except he's not basing it on anyone's religion, he said "airing the video shouldn't be a crime".

    Le Pen is vile but she did this to make a political point. This was graphic but she did it as political speech and censoring political speech is more chilling than sharing a video of somebody else's violence.
    Agree that it shouldn't be illegal
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Minus the part where sharing this kind of a video is illegal in France, and it's illegal for Lewkosian "fear thr Muslims" reasons. And suddenly Le Pen and Lewk are outraged when the law is applied to a non-Muslim. As for Le Pen caring about free speech: when did you become an avid RT viewer?
    But i also agree with this
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    You want people investigated for voicing protected speech?
    Yup. Be they Muslims advocating for jihad or white supremacists talking about how the only good black guy is a dead one. I expect anti-terrorism to do more than simply react to terrorist attacks AFTER they happen. Are you seriously advocating that someone praising jihad shouldn't be looked into?
    but remember ya'll, words dont hurt and words dont cause harm. inflammatory words are only useful when they are against liberals.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Minus the part where sharing this kind of a video is illegal in France, and it's illegal for Lewkosian "fear thr Muslims" reasons. And suddenly Le Pen and Lewk are outraged when the law is applied to a non-Muslim. As for Le Pen caring about free speech: when did you become an avid RT viewer?
    Since when did any of us propose that France is the pinnacle of humanity and that French laws are perfect the way they are? I for one have always said Europe is too restrictive on free speech and have criticised my own nation for going that way too. I am a big believer in your first amendment and wish we had it.

    As for Le Pen caring about free speech I couldn't care less if she does or does not. The right to free speech means nothing if it doesn't protect those you vehemently oppose like Le Pen.

    From A Man For All Seasons:
    Alice More: Arrest him!
    More: Why, what has he done?
    Margaret More: He's bad!
    More: There is no law against that.
    Will Roper: There is! God's law!
    More: Then God can arrest him.
    Alice: While you talk, he's gone!
    More: And go he should, if he was the Devil himself, until he broke the law!
    Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
    More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
    Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
    More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast– man's laws, not God's– and if you cut them down—and you're just the man to do it—do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law for my own safety's sake.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    but remember ya'll, words dont hurt and words dont cause harm. inflammatory words are only useful when they are against liberals.
    Le sigh. They aren't being investigated because their words are inflammatory they are being inviestated because people who think jihad is great are *more likely to be terrorists and will aid and support them.* Once again I don't support the punishment of speech but I do support our law enforcement agencies using their brains to investigate potential threats.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Yes of course. People should be investigated for suspicious behaviour and that includes aggressive but protected speech. Has always been that way.

    You think people should be able to glorify jihad and not be investigated?
    And yet here you are opposing the Le Pen investigation. Who are you trying to fool here?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    And yet here you are opposing the Le Pen investigation. Who are you trying to fool here?
    No I'm not. I have no objection to Le Pen getting investigated. I have a problem with controversial political speech ending in the courtroom and that applies to politicians of all colours even those I vividly oppose like Le Pen, Trump, Corbyn or McDonnell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  19. #19
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Le Pen is vile but she did this to make a political point. This was graphic but she did it as political speech and censoring political speech is more chilling than sharing a video of somebody else's violence.[/COLOR]
    Doing illegal stuff for political reasons does not suddenly make it legal.

    Because if you followed that particular logic to its ultimate conclusion then the IRA would come away squeaky-clean.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Doing illegal stuff for political reasons does not suddenly make it legal.

    Because if you followed that particular logic to its ultimate conclusion then the IRA would come away squeaky-clean.
    Who said it makes it legal? Criticising censorship isn't the same thing as saying censorship isn't the law.

    Oddly enough as well I don't view political speech and politically murdering schoolchildren and preschoolers to be the same thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #21
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Do you also scream "Fire" in a crowded cinema?

    Your "logic" is solely based on "But it's political [insertStuffHere]!" as if that gave you an automatic excuse to go against the law.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Minus the part where sharing this kind of a video is illegal in France...
    Same old story: Certain Western European countries censor to create political norms; end up destroying said norms by over-censoring.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Do you also scream "Fire" in a crowded cinema?

    Your "logic" is solely based on "But it's political [insertStuffHere]!" as if that gave you an automatic excuse to go against the law.
    Fire in a crowded theater and political rhetoric is completely different.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Do you also scream "Fire" in a crowded cinema?

    Your "logic" is solely based on "But it's political [insertStuffHere]!" as if that gave you an automatic excuse to go against the law.
    No my logic is based on "but it's political speech" not murdering children. I don't want people to have an automatic excuse to go against the law I want the law not to censor free political speech. Sticks and stones ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #25
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No my logic is based on "but it's political speech" not murdering children. I don't want people to have an automatic excuse to go against the law I want the law not to censor free political speech. Sticks and stones ...
    Did you know, Rand, that videos are not speech?

    Using your logic, a teacher in sex education would be perfectly justified to show a hardcore porno just to show the kids "how it worked".

    Also: "Kill all the Jews!" is probably equally fine?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  26. #26
    Yes videos are a form of speech.

    Sex education is political speech now?

    No a line is drawn at incitement to violence. This was nasty and graphic, it was not incitement to violence.

    Until you wrap your head around people dying versus not you're on a different planet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  27. #27
    This depicted an innocent person's murder. Was permission obtained from the victim beforehand?
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Did you know, Rand, that videos are not speech?

    Using your logic, a teacher in sex education would be perfectly justified to show a hardcore porno just to show the kids "how it worked".

    Also: "Kill all the Jews!" is probably equally fine?
    Videos are speech. How literal are you proposing we get with "speech"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    This depicted an innocent person's murder. Was permission obtained from the victim beforehand?
    Well then let's jail all the broadcasters who aired the September 11th attacks.

  29. #29
    I don't know to what extent they showed images or videos with identifiable victims. The most widely disseminated ones did not.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  30. #30
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    It really seems that people are (purposefully?) talking past each other.

    We can agree that if this was illegal in France, then Le Pen can be brought to account. Can we also agree that we can discuss if this seems a bit stringent and close to censorship with out being dicks?
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

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