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Thread: Are we using Obama as a scapegoat?

  1. #121
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I don't understand how you can have civilization without a government.
    You have successfully identified (and admitted) your problem. Congrats! They say that's the first step.

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    That comes from pooling resources to achieve things the private sector can't or won't.
    And thus, communism is means through which to achieve maximum civilization, which has resulted in the unparalleled works of art, culture and wealth which we associate with civilization.

    Hey, waitaminute...
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  2. #122
    Okay, you understand how to have civilization without government. Why are you keeping it a secret? Share your knowledge with us.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  3. #123
    Senior Member Lor's Avatar
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    It will cost you, your life!

  4. #124
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Okay, you understand how to have civilization without government. Why are you keeping it a secret? Share your knowledge with us.
    I think Cain meant is just because you have a government does not necessarily mean you have a (worthwhile) civilization.

    But...I could be putting words in his mouth (cause he wont let me put anything else).

  5. #125
    Ah ... observing how demonisation of words take effect is such a dispiriting sensation.
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
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    Which is what I am

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  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by CitizenCain View Post
    You have successfully identified (and admitted) your problem. Congrats! They say that's the first step.
    You know, its a little shameful to try and score points when I'm hanging it out with honesty.


    And thus, communism is means through which to achieve maximum civilization, which has resulted in the unparalleled works of art, culture and wealth which we associate with civilization.
    Except that actual communist nations have utterly failed to achieve these things while the US and the rest of the West, with sensible (and not) government investments, have achieved the greatest heights of civilization humanity has ever seen. And if they had all been Libertarian, none of it would have happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    I think Cain meant is just because you have a government does not necessarily mean you have a (worthwhile) civilization.
    The *first* step toward civilization is a government. Right? I'm all for thinking out of the box but I can't think of a way humans can have a civilization without a government. Now, if the argument is about what *kind* of government we ought to have, that's different. And in that vein, I fail to see how the US or the rest of the West could have achieved what we have in the last century without the government making big investments in the infrastructure of civilization. Now, if the answer to that is it couldn't, and it shouldn't, and fuck all this civilization stuff we have, its not worth taking my money for taxes, then fair enough.
    But...I could be putting words in his mouth (cause he wont let me put anything else).
    Have you asked him? Seriously. Have you asked him?
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  7. #127
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    I think Cain meant is just because you have a government does not necessarily mean you have a (worthwhile) civilization.
    That's part of it... but the other part is the actual literal meaning of the words (I know, a departure from my usual M.O.) - civilization does not require government.

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    You know, its a little shameful to try and score points when I'm hanging it out with honesty.
    No it's not.

    That's not what I'm doing, but that's not shameful anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Except that actual communist nations have utterly failed to achieve these things while the US and the rest of the West, with sensible (and not) government investments, have achieved the greatest heights of civilization humanity has ever seen.
    Hey, it's like you figured out what I was saying with my sarcasm.... all without knowing it!

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    The *first* step toward civilization is a government. Right?
    Wrong. And, I struggle to see how you're "thinking outside the box" if this is what you've come up with so far...

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I'm all for thinking out of the box but I can't think of a way humans can have a civilization without a government.
    Well, think of the functions performed by government... and then think of how that might be (or even has been) achieved without an actual government imposing those functions.

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Have you asked him? Seriously. Have you asked him?
    Yup. And I don't do that (with men) before marriage. The type of marriage that comes with immigration status... not the wimpy state gay-marriages we have today.

    Besides, I'm not really the marriage type... if I figure I'd end up cheating on woman, imagine how fast I figure I'd end up cheating on a man!
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

  8. #128
    What are you calling a government Cain? If there are two people in a civilization, one will dominate the other. Do you consider it to be governance for the dominant one to order the other to collect firewood?
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  9. #129
    De Oppresso Liber CitizenCain's Avatar
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    There's the $20 question - what's the definition of "government?"

    And no, I don't consider a slave owner to be a government... I was using the word in the sense that we generally use it today.

    China has a government. The US has a government. NK has a government. Somalia... doesn't (well, technically, it's got 4 or 5 fighting over which one gets to be the government, but close enough for this discussion).
    "I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    -- Thomas Jefferson: American Founding Father, clairvoyant and seditious traitor.

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