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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #3001
    Article 50 actually says that the negotiations should take "account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union". It says the EU should negotiate in accordance with Article 218 (3).

    It says nothing negotiating about negotiating the future relationship between the EU and the leaving state only after settling the future relationship between one fraction of the EU and one fraction of the leaving state.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  2. #3002
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    Well, too bad for you then that we read it differently and that how we read it counts.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  3. #3003
    And too bad for us we're led by someone with all the backbone of a jellyfish.

    The key to negotiating successfully is to be polite, positive and friendly but prepared to walk away.

    May did it backwards. She was rude, abrasive and arrogant while simultaneously desperate and unwilling to walk. Couldn't have been worse if she'd tried.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  4. #3004
    Right, she's not even going to be able to get her compromise deal through parliament, what do you think would have happened if she'd tried to walk away?

    MPs: "LOL, no. Go back and try again"
    Other MPs "No deal Brexit? Second referendum first."

    The EU knows this. Couldn't have been worse if she'd tried? She could have tried making empty threats then have her bluff called in approximately 15 nanoseconds.
    Sing in grief, a requiem, the curse of our millennium, these souls keep whispering from the river beds
    An end to all these violent means, alive in these red water dreams, their haunted burdens stirring in my head on streets still running red
    Most went in the flood, a few were martyred by the flames, yet those who unleashed the waters are still guilty all the same
    When the ignorance of puppets serves the masters larger game, they let it rain, they let it rain
    When I get the chance to rise I'll find the light in their cold eyes or lose myself and carry out revenge
    The righteous hunt has just begun, the dimming of the bleeding sun will let these waters run clear once again



  5. #3005
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    And too bad for us we're led by someone with all the backbone of a jellyfish.

    The key to negotiating successfully is to be polite, positive and friendly but prepared to walk away.

    May did it backwards. She was rude, abrasive and arrogant while simultaneously desperate and unwilling to walk. Couldn't have been worse if she'd tried.
    Like it matters.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  6. #3006
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    And too bad for us we're led by someone with all the backbone of a jellyfish.
    Every country gets the government it deserves. Think on that.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  7. #3007
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Right, she's not even going to be able to get her compromise deal through parliament, what do you think would have happened if she'd tried to walk away?

    MPs: "LOL, no. Go back and try again"
    Other MPs "No deal Brexit? Second referendum first."

    The EU knows this. Couldn't have been worse if she'd tried? She could have tried making empty threats then have her bluff called in approximately 15 nanoseconds.
    She did make empty threats. She was the one screaming from the rooftops that no deal is better than a bad deal etc
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #3008
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    She did make empty threats. She was the one screaming from the rooftops that no deal is better than a bad deal etc
    So, she did what you're advising?
    Sing in grief, a requiem, the curse of our millennium, these souls keep whispering from the river beds
    An end to all these violent means, alive in these red water dreams, their haunted burdens stirring in my head on streets still running red
    Most went in the flood, a few were martyred by the flames, yet those who unleashed the waters are still guilty all the same
    When the ignorance of puppets serves the masters larger game, they let it rain, they let it rain
    When I get the chance to rise I'll find the light in their cold eyes or lose myself and carry out revenge
    The righteous hunt has just begun, the dimming of the bleeding sun will let these waters run clear once again



  9. #3009
    No I was advising she be serious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #3010
    But, as have just pointed out, walking away is not a realistic option.
    Sing in grief, a requiem, the curse of our millennium, these souls keep whispering from the river beds
    An end to all these violent means, alive in these red water dreams, their haunted burdens stirring in my head on streets still running red
    Most went in the flood, a few were martyred by the flames, yet those who unleashed the waters are still guilty all the same
    When the ignorance of puppets serves the masters larger game, they let it rain, they let it rain
    When I get the chance to rise I'll find the light in their cold eyes or lose myself and carry out revenge
    The righteous hunt has just begun, the dimming of the bleeding sun will let these waters run clear once again



  11. #3011
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    She did make empty threats. She was the one screaming from the rooftops that no deal is better than a bad deal etc
    And this from the Breximaniac who quite recently was of the opinion that no deal wasn't a big deal at all?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  12. #3012
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    But, as have just pointed out, walking away is not a realistic option.
    Then she shouldn't have been threatening it vocally at the start [while simultaneously doing zero prep for doing so], she should have been polite and friendly at the start instead.

    You don't start negotiations by being belligerent and rude if you are desperate for any deal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    And this from the Breximaniac who quite recently was of the opinion that no deal wasn't a big deal at all?
    Yeah but I was prepared to walk away, she wasn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #3013
    She can be as polite and friendly and/or rude and abrasive as she likes, she's still not getting a hard Brexit through parliament.
    Sing in grief, a requiem, the curse of our millennium, these souls keep whispering from the river beds
    An end to all these violent means, alive in these red water dreams, their haunted burdens stirring in my head on streets still running red
    Most went in the flood, a few were martyred by the flames, yet those who unleashed the waters are still guilty all the same
    When the ignorance of puppets serves the masters larger game, they let it rain, they let it rain
    When I get the chance to rise I'll find the light in their cold eyes or lose myself and carry out revenge
    The righteous hunt has just begun, the dimming of the bleeding sun will let these waters run clear once again



  14. #3014
    If she's not going to why threaten to and in which case why did she start this process shrieking like a banshee, being rude and abrasive to 'citizens of nowhere' and our continental partners she was planning to subsequently beg for any deal from?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #3015
    Oh God, this bizarre meltdown of yours is equal parts hilarious and tragic.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  16. #3016
    If you fire your manager sovereignty's definitely going to come home for sure.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  17. #3017
    This Vicious Cabaret Unheard Of's Avatar
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    The obvious conclusion from this mess is that the Tories are not sufficiently competent to run the country, or even their own affairs.

  18. #3018
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Oh God, this bizarre meltdown of yours is equal parts hilarious and tragic.
    What meltdown?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  19. #3019
    Quote Originally Posted by Unheard Of View Post
    The obvious conclusion from this mess is that the Tories are not sufficiently competent to run the country, or even their own affairs.
    Too bad the alternative are infinitely worse.

    The country is actually well run.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #3020
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Too bad the alternative are infinitely worse.
    Sure, their ideology differs from yours.

    The country is actually well run.
    Praise be.
    Greetings, citizen! THE COMPUTER has made you a protector of the underground city of ALPHA COMPLEX. You will have lots of fun rooting out Communist mutant traitors. The Computer says so.

  21. #3021
    Quote Originally Posted by Unheard Of View Post
    Sure, their ideology differs from yours.
    Massively. They literally want to "overthrow capitalism" and model the UK on Venezuela. Because that's worked so well wherever its been tried.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #3022
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    That will make an interesting* change from the current oligarchy.

    I miss having someone I want to vote for.

    * for some uncomfortable values of interesting
    Greetings, citizen! THE COMPUTER has made you a protector of the underground city of ALPHA COMPLEX. You will have lots of fun rooting out Communist mutant traitors. The Computer says so.

  23. #3023
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    What meltdown?
    The one where you criticized Theresa May for not being prepared to walk away, and then criticized her for threatening to walk away, despite failing to address the point that walking away was a political impossibility for her. The reality is she was hamstrung by the fanciful lies told by Leave during the referendum to give the impression that a no-deal Brexit was not a serious possibility.
    Sing in grief, a requiem, the curse of our millennium, these souls keep whispering from the river beds
    An end to all these violent means, alive in these red water dreams, their haunted burdens stirring in my head on streets still running red
    Most went in the flood, a few were martyred by the flames, yet those who unleashed the waters are still guilty all the same
    When the ignorance of puppets serves the masters larger game, they let it rain, they let it rain
    When I get the chance to rise I'll find the light in their cold eyes or lose myself and carry out revenge
    The righteous hunt has just begun, the dimming of the bleeding sun will let these waters run clear once again



  24. #3024
    This Vicious Cabaret Unheard Of's Avatar
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    Father Christmas isn't real. It's not TM or the EU's fault that you demand a full stocking on the 25th and BoJo promised you a pony.

    Last edited by Unheard Of; 11-26-2018 at 09:03 PM.

  25. #3025
    Theresa.
    Sing in grief, a requiem, the curse of our millennium, these souls keep whispering from the river beds
    An end to all these violent means, alive in these red water dreams, their haunted burdens stirring in my head on streets still running red
    Most went in the flood, a few were martyred by the flames, yet those who unleashed the waters are still guilty all the same
    When the ignorance of puppets serves the masters larger game, they let it rain, they let it rain
    When I get the chance to rise I'll find the light in their cold eyes or lose myself and carry out revenge
    The righteous hunt has just begun, the dimming of the bleeding sun will let these waters run clear once again



  26. #3026
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    The one where you criticized Theresa May for not being prepared to walk away, and then criticized her for threatening to walk away, despite failing to address the point that walking away was a political impossibility for her. The reality is she was hamstrung by the fanciful lies told by Leave during the referendum to give the impression that a no-deal Brexit was not a serious possibility.
    That's not a meltdown it's me calling out her hypocrisy and bullshit.

    Which part of it do you disagree with?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  27. #3027
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    That's not a meltdown it's me calling out her hypocrisy and bullshit.

    Which part of it do you disagree with?
    Well, maybe you should take a closer look at your own hypocrisy and bullshit. Your critique of her strategy makes absolutely no sense. Sure, she shouldn't have mouthed off at the start but what difference you do think that made? The EU was just sitting there with a better deal they were prepared to offer but were withholding because May annoyed them? Not really how these things work.
    Sing in grief, a requiem, the curse of our millennium, these souls keep whispering from the river beds
    An end to all these violent means, alive in these red water dreams, their haunted burdens stirring in my head on streets still running red
    Most went in the flood, a few were martyred by the flames, yet those who unleashed the waters are still guilty all the same
    When the ignorance of puppets serves the masters larger game, they let it rain, they let it rain
    When I get the chance to rise I'll find the light in their cold eyes or lose myself and carry out revenge
    The righteous hunt has just begun, the dimming of the bleeding sun will let these waters run clear once again



  28. #3028
    No its not how these things work but that's also not what I said. I negotiate professionally as part of my job and you need to weigh up your strengths and weaknesses relatively, how much you need them, how much they need you, how much you want, how much you can afford and go into negotiations accordingly. Rule #1 though is don't antagonise those you're negotiating with. Its dumb, dumb, dumb. Her deal is as dead as a dodo, it will not pass Parliament and it didn't need to come to this. The backstop that has completely screwed up negotiations for the past year wasn't even part of the EU's original proposals! It only came into play after she'd spent months antagonising them and refusing to talk.

    It's very easy to have hindsight but here's a post I wrote for another site on the subject of how May has screwed up negotiations. Note that it was in reply to the someone quoting mockingly the claim from some leavers that "we hold the cards" before the referendum and I had said that we did hold cards but May threw them away. Hence its all card-based analogy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Me, elsewhere
    Quote Originally Posted by Someone else
    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    We did hold the cards but remainer May chucked away our aces.
    Which Aces were those?
    Good question. Others are laughing without thinking but you've asked the good question.

    Ace of Hearts: This was our choice.
    May has acted afraid and recalcitrant, like she's worried but 'doing her duty' in doing what the voters said, instead of doing what she wanted. This makes it very easy for the EU to threaten negative consequences and get her to back down as a result. For someone who campaigned for this to happen the idea of threatening consequences would have been dismissed as "we know that, we chose it".

    Ace of Diamonds: Money, money, money
    Unlike Greece which desperately needed money from the ECB to keep their banks open and pay the bills, the EU wants our money.

    Ace of Spades: First mover.
    The vote caught the EU off guard, the genuinely weren't expecting we'd actually do it, and following that they waited for us to propose our solutions. We didn't do so. We waited, stalled and May chose to 'keep her cards close to her chest' until belatedly the Commission got fed up and came up with their own proposals which then have become the outcome. Had May come up with a fleshed our proposal like Chequers when she invoked Article 50 that would have set the groundwork to build on, instead of chucking away that opportunity and waiting for the Commission to do her work for her.

    Ace of Clubs: Parliament.
    [Another user there] suggested that a 'real Brexiteer' being able to command support in Parliament better was a 'flying unicorn' but of course that would have happened. Parliament was top ace for May. The Tories had an overall majority in Parliament and an opposition led by Jeremy Corbyn who was no confidenced by almost all his own MPs but clung on. She chucked away an overall majority, a 20+ point lead in the polls, a divided opposition and an opposition leader who wasn't taken seriously by calling an election then failing to turn up to the debates or win a majority.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  29. #3029
    Anyway, May's deal is as dead as a dodo. It will not pass Parliament, it will not be close. Which is going to make it all the more embarrassing. Had it been close then the presure on moderate Tory potential rebels and moderate Labour potential rebels to back the deal would have been immense. Even some Lib Dems had hinted they would back the deal. But its not close, they all know its going to fail, so MPs are free to virtue signal and oppose without being the one who left Britain without a deal. It's going to be a humiliating rejection. I doubt even one Labour MP or one Lib Dem will back the deal. DUP oppose it. SNP and assorted others will oppose it. Potential Tory rebels number upto 100. The deal is history. 2 years of negotiations up in smoke, Barnier and May I hope you're proud of yourselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  30. #3030
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No its not how these things work but that's also not what I said. I negotiate professionally as part of my job and you need to weigh up your strengths and weaknesses relatively, how much you need them, how much they need you, how much you want, how much you can afford and go into negotiations accordingly. Rule #1 though is don't antagonise those you're negotiating with. Its dumb, dumb, dumb. Her deal is as dead as a dodo, it will not pass Parliament and it didn't need to come to this. The backstop that has completely screwed up negotiations for the past year wasn't even part of the EU's original proposals! It only came into play after she'd spent months antagonising them and refusing to talk.

    It's very easy to have hindsight but here's a post I wrote for another site on the subject of how May has screwed up negotiations. Note that it was in reply to the someone quoting mockingly the claim from some leavers that "we hold the cards" before the referendum and I had said that we did hold cards but May threw them away. Hence its all card-based analogy.
    You never held any other card than that we wanted to limit the damage done to us by your idiocy. It wasn't a particularly strong card anyway because we knew that you would be hurt much more than we and you were not only unprepared but also not able to ready yourself for a no-deal exit. You on the other hand thought that it would be as easy as retracting your membership through national legislation alone.

    You have been so consistently wrong about the way that Brexit would go that it almost would suffice to say 'See what he wrote? That's how it is not going to be.'

    Theresa or anyone doing the exit talks singing from your hymn sheet could not have gotten a better deal. Worse would have been very likely.

    I also regularly negotiate, and have had intensive training to do so. Which is reason why I am able to see that the withdrawal agreement is not the result of a regular negotiation. For the simple reason that a negotiation without a deal leaves you with the status quo. No Brexit deal on the other hand means a hard reset to an unknown new situation. That means ; its not really a negotiation at all. So all you think you know is non-applicable
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

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