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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #3121
    What do you expect? It is boy who cried wolf syndrome.

    I'm glad that the British public can think for themselves and not swallow any old bullshit they get fed by people who have been wrong time and again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  2. #3122
    And yet they listen to ignorant Brexiters, the tabloid press, assorted xenophobes and racists etc. It's almost as if your expectations have nothing to do with reality.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  3. #3123
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I'm glad that the British public can think for themselves
    Well that's lovely, but the vast majority of people in this country are massively ignorant about the EU and the complexity of treaties, trade deals, the GFA, customs rules, border controls etc.

    So yes, of course we can think for ourselves (I didn't say otherwise) but we don't have the facts and evidence available to make informed decisions.

    Spreading the message that we should treat expert advice with contempt and label it "project fear", because at some point in past the reality didn't match a forecast 100% is just, well, pathetic. Y'all need to grow the fuck up.

  4. #3124
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I'm glad that the British public can think for themselves and not swallow any old bullshit they get fed by people who have been wrong time and again.
    So what's your excuse?
    I fought the decisions that call and lost my mark as a relevant piece in this
    I will come reformed
    In short, for the murders of those I court, I bless the hour that holds your fall
    I will kill you all
    I will call you out from shelter, burn your wings and you'll know no better

  5. #3125
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    What do you expect? It is boy who cried wolf syndrome.

    I'm glad that the British public can think for themselves and not swallow any old bullshit they get fed by people who have been wrong time and again.
    So, you don't share the concerns of a second referendum threatening the very core of democracy?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  6. #3126
    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    Well that's lovely, but the vast majority of people in this country are massively ignorant about the EU and the complexity of treaties, trade deals, the GFA, customs rules, border controls etc.

    So yes, of course we can think for ourselves (I didn't say otherwise) but we don't have the facts and evidence available to make informed decisions.

    Spreading the message that we should treat expert advice with contempt and label it "project fear", because at some point in past the reality didn't match a forecast 100% is just, well, pathetic. Y'all need to grow the fuck up.
    Spreading the message that we should sit down, shut up and let others who "know better" decide what to is pathetic and childish too. The solution to ignorance is not to hide things away but to argue your case and maybe, just maybe, the case for remaining in the EU could be made better than the shitshow of just spreading doom and gloom about leaving?

    The fact that even now people aren't making a positive argument in favour of a close relationship with the EU and instead are trying to exploit sectarian violence to tether us to the EU is pathetic.

    As far as I recall you believe remaining in the EU is the right thing to do on principle and not just because "experts" say so. If "experts" were saying we should walk away, would you meekly go along with that or would you argue for your principles?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #3127
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    So, you don't share the concerns of a second referendum threatening the very core of democracy?
    No, I think the 'vote again until you get it right' tendency is pathetic, but I wouldn't say that.

    Personally I think any second referendum should happen after the first is enacted. So once we've left if a party with a rejoin commitment wants to put that in their manifesto and wins office then so be it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #3128
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Spreading the message that we should sit down, shut up and let others who "know better" decide what to is pathetic and childish too.
    Agreed. Who said that?

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The solution to ignorance is not to hide things away but to argue your case and maybe, just maybe, the case for remaining in the EU could be made better than the shitshow of just spreading doom and gloom about leaving?
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The fact that even now people aren't making a positive argument in favour of a close relationship with the EU and instead are trying to exploit sectarian violence to tether us to the EU is pathetic.
    It's kinda hard to have a close relationship with May's red lines

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    As far as I recall you believe remaining in the EU is the right thing to do on principle and not just because "experts" say so. If "experts" were saying we should walk away, would you meekly go along with that or would you argue for your principles?
    If the evidence suggested that leaving the EU would result in a better standard of living for my family, I would vote to leave. But the evidence doesn't. Principles are important, but balance is required between what you believe, and what the reality is.

    I want to see an objectively balanced debate held in this country; but it seems our media and politicians are unable to facilitate that. So I will lend my trust to evidence and expertise, rather than faith and attempt to draw my own conclusions based on the facts. All of which demonstrates that we have thrived since joining the EU, and country's many significant problems are not caused by the 1.5% GDP we pay, immigrants, laws and regulations we make collaboratively with 27 other partners, the SM, CU and ECJ; and are all within our Government's control to fix. If somebody can prove to me that the cons of those things I just listed outweigh the pros, I'll gladly vote leave.

    And by prove I mean actually go beyond soundbites and rhetoric.

  9. #3129
    It's not possible to prove, as the counter-factual of us being outside doesn't exist. So it depends upon what evidence you seek and what you believe.

    So lets compare us to the non-EU English-speaking developed nations. The EEC became the EU on 1 January 1993. That was also after the Thatcher reforms had transformed our economy in the 80s and is a quarter of a century ago so looks like a reasonable position to look at.

    1993:
    USA GDP/capita $26,464.85
    Canada GDP/capita $20,017.43
    UK GDP/capita: $18,389.02
    Australia GDP/capita: $17,633.38
    New Zealand GDP/capita: $13,076.54

    Lets compare to 2016 as that's when we had the vote.
    USA: $57,558.54
    Australia: $49,896.68
    Canada: $42,348.95
    United Kingdom: $40,412.03
    New Zealand: $40,331.96

    I fail to see how we have thrived in the last quarter of a century since the European Union was introduced. It seems to me we've grown as you would expect but actually lost ground on some of the comparison nations. We were a bit ahead of Australia and massively ahead of New Zealand, and now are massively behind Australia and about to be overtaken by New Zealand. We were formally overtaken by New Zealand in 2017 meaning we are the poorest English-speaking "five eyes" nation. We are poorer than every other country I'd compare us to. That's no success.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #3130
    That is an impressive list of meaningless comparisons.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  11. #3131
    You got a more meaningful comparison than the nations we share the most with historically, culturally and linguistically across the globe?

    As I said, there is no proof. There is evidence on all sides and you have to make an informed decision.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  12. #3132
    It's perfectly possible to put forward an objective view of the pros and cons over the last 40 years. It's not easy, I'll admit, but it's possible.



    Looks positive to me. I've no reason to believe we'd be in a better position outside of the EU, especially given the state we were in when we joined.

    https://www.inet.ox.ac.uk/news/Brexit

  13. #3133
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    You got a more meaningful comparison than the nations we share the most with historically, culturally and linguistically across the globe?
    Please, stop. This is even more asinine than your first claim. The UK's economy is not particularly similar to either Australia's or the US's. It wasn't particularly bright of you to use 2016 GDP per capita figures considering a certain event in 2016 that was followed by a massive hit to the pound and a slowdown in growth relative to other OECD nations. More appropriate (but still dumb) to look at 2015 GDP/capita, when the UK was ahead of both Canada and New Zealand.

    As I said, there is no proof. There is evidence on all sides and you have to make an informed decision.
    Curious, then, that you choose to provide the opposite of useful information.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  14. #3134
    Interesting graph gogo. Rather proves my point.

    For nearly a decade after we joined in '73 we did worse than any of the other nations compared to.

    Then from the early 80s onwards we surged forwards and have subsequently done better than them.

    In other words, since we dropped the failing socialism that Corbyn harps back to that led us to the Winter of Discontent (5 years after we joined the EEC) and embraced Thatcherism we have done well. It is Thatcher that helped the UK more than the EEC has.

    Try rebasing your graph from 1979.

    Oh and interesting that you're basing your argument that we're better off inside the EU by comparing our growth with 2 other nations (doing worse than us) that are also inside the EU. Why not compare with the other English-speaking non-EU countries like Canada, New Zealand and Australia?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #3135
    Really, looking at that graph and comparing us to France, it seems we are doing well despite not because of the EU. But either way its hard to measure without more objective comparisons like equivalent non-EU nations graphed over time. If someone has a graph available for 45 years (so addressing Aimless's currency variation claim) including more comparable non-EU nations it would make for a more educated comparison.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #3136
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  17. #3137
    I suggest you stop trying to play silly buggers. Compare the UK's GDP/capita with or without adjustment for PPP to that of Canada and NZ—the only two countries on your list that are even remotely comparable—over the past couple of decades. Your argument was so misleading—deliberately so—that you should quite frankly be ashamed of yourself. The cult-like proselytizing is borderline MAGA.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  18. #3138
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  19. #3139
    I just provided a graph over the last couple of decades, 11 minutes after suggesting it, which was the time it took for me to get the graph

    The data is there for decades. I don't see any discernible reason to think the UK has done extremely well from the EU as opposed to just generically grown as have all developed nations, except for Thatcher's reforms. Other non-EU nations have grown just as well as we have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #3140
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Not sure what you're trying to prove there. Since 1998 we've kind of plateaued relative to CA and NZ?

    Not exactly a great argument in favour of saying the EU provides some sort of exceptional stimulus that only we benefit from of those three nations. In fact using the nations you've chosen and the time period you've chosen we have the lowest growth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #3141
    The relationships between the GDP/capita metric for the UK, NZ and CA, with or without adjustment for PPP, have been relatively constant for the past couple of decades:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator...-NZ&start=1998

    The UK's economy is mature but has nevertheless seen considerable growth even when compared to less mature economies (eg. NZ). The UK's economy is purportedly hampered by the EU, yet it has kept pace with a large and dynamic economy like CA. Your claims don't hold water. That's without going into the disgraceful attempt to mislead by looking at GDP figures for 2016 as if the referendum itself didn't influence those calculations.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  22. #3142
    Considering I started making the comparison before the referendum (thus before the vote and its aftermath) there's no dishonesty intended by specifying 2016. Happy to look at any other graph, I provided the graph of 73-16 myself.

    "Relatively constant" and "kept pace" are hardly ringing endorsements for suggesting we've done better as a result for being in the EU. If being in the EU was majorly beneficial we should have done better, not just as well as, other nations that are comparable but not in the EU. I don't see any evidence for that. If the EU is only neutral, then it becomes about other issues and on other issues I believe out is better on sovereignty grounds.

    The UK is a large and dynamic economy in its own right too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  23. #3143
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No, I think the 'vote again until you get it right' tendency is pathetic, but I wouldn't say that.

    Personally I think any second referendum should happen after the first is enacted. So once we've left if a party with a rejoin commitment wants to put that in their manifesto and wins office then so be it.
    And why should a majority for remain have to wait for maximum damage?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  24. #3144
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    Funny how the British government is talking about continuing talks with the EU confirming there are no talks. Who are the Brits talking with?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  25. #3145
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    And why should a majority for remain have to wait for maximum damage?
    Because they lost already. Enact what was won and then judge from there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #3146
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    So, that means the voter is not allowed to change his mind even on the basis of a better understanding of the matter at hand?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  27. #3147
    Sure they can at the next election once this one has been implemented. Nothing lasts forever and every decision can eventually be reversed that's a very fundamental principle of mine you know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #3148
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Sure they can at the next election once this one has been implemented. Nothing lasts forever and every decision can eventually be reversed that's a very fundamental principle of mine you know.
    Ah, I see. So the decision of the referendum cannot be reversed?

    And before you answer: Please consider that even the people in Ancient Athens, the birthplace of democracy, reversed decisions before implementing them when being informed of previously unknown and important facts.

    So spare us your usual whaffling about how you need to fully shoot yourself into the gonads to see how bad it really can get.

    But I also fully expect you to be a complete braindead moron over this once again.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  29. #3149
    In my view, the only case for a second referendum is if the only option left is hard brexit.
    I fought the decisions that call and lost my mark as a relevant piece in this
    I will come reformed
    In short, for the murders of those I court, I bless the hour that holds your fall
    I will kill you all
    I will call you out from shelter, burn your wings and you'll know no better

  30. #3150
    I don't see any previously unknown facts. That the EU doesn't want Brexit to go ahead so are being awkward is not unknown and was warned about before the original vote. If something major breaks that was previously unknown then yes of course a rethink could be possible, but in the very limited time left and with the information available it seems both redundant and pointless. It is just a hobbyhorse for those who haven't gotten over the fact they lost first time, for the same reasons (nothing new) that they opposed Brexit originally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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