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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #3571
    Tory democracy: one referendum cannot be reversed under any circumstances, but multiple failed votes on the same topic means the government should keep on trying.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  2. #3572
    The referendum is more important than MPs votes and can be reversed once it's been implemented.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #3573
    No. It. Is. Not. Parliamentary supremacy. Read about it. Referenda aren't even binding. I'm not sure what idiots you expect everyone else to be, but democracy doesn't preclude revoting. Or ignoring non-binding referenda for that matter.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  4. #3574
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The referendum is more important than MPs votes and can be reversed once it's been implemented.
    Once again: Even the birthplace of the democracy, Ancient Greece, recognized that sometimes circumstances change and allowed for a second vote on the same matter.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  5. #3575
    You aren't going to convince him with examples from non-English cultures.
    There's a man goin' 'round, takin' names
    And he decides who to free and who to blame

  6. #3576
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    No. It. Is. Not. Parliamentary supremacy. Read about it. Referenda aren't even binding. I'm not sure what idiots you expect everyone else to be, but democracy doesn't preclude revoting. Or ignoring non-binding referenda for that matter.
    They're not legally binding but they're morally binding.

    Nothing has changed to justify a revote.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #3577
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    They're not legally binding but they're morally binding. Nothing has changed to justify a revote.
    There's a man goin' 'round, takin' names
    And he decides who to free and who to blame

  8. #3578
    What's changed?

    Name one person on this forum who has changed their mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #3579
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    They're not legally binding but they're morally binding.

    Nothing has changed to justify a revote.
    There is no such freaking thing. Your morality is little more than demanding that everything go your way. I actually read dozens of articles on democracy/democratization. You know how many of them even talked about democracy requiring no revotes? None. This is not a thing. It's a lie that Tories managed to convince themselves of and now they get angry when the rest of the world doesn't buy into their delusion.

    There is no need for change (though the Leave side blatantly lied about how Brexit would work, and did so with the help of illegal financial contributions). You have a legitimately elected government. That government has the right to maintain the status quo or go against it as long as it goes through the proper constitutional channels (something May seems to be ignoring with her own Commons revote). There is nothing democratic or undemocratic about it.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #3580
    No my morality is that what the people voted it the biggest vote we've ever had should be enacted. I have no problems with revotes once the prior vote has been enacted. If people want to campaign to rejoin once we've left, then good luck to them. That's democracy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #3581
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Nothing has changed to justify a revote.
    The big red bus lies alone should be raising alarm bells at this point, and that was before the government showed how inept they were at even attempting a beneficial exit.
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 03-21-2019 at 10:30 PM.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  12. #3582
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No my morality is that what the people voted it the biggest vote we've ever had should be enacted. I have no problems with revotes once the prior vote has been enacted. If people want to campaign to rejoin once we've left, then good luck to them. That's democracy.
    You should try applying this to parliamentary elections - no more elections until the government has delivered everything in their manifesto, regardless of how stupid it turns out to be.
    There's a man goin' 'round, takin' names
    And he decides who to free and who to blame

  13. #3583
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    The bug red bus lies alone should be raising alarm bells at this point, and that was before the government showed how inept they were at even attempting a beneficial exit.
    There were no lies on a bus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  14. #3584
    Quote Originally Posted by Unheard Of View Post
    You should try applying this to parliamentary elections - no more elections until the government has delivered everything in their manifesto, regardless of how stupid it turns out to be.
    No, it would be more like saying that if you don't like the results of an election then there should be another election before the election winner gets inaugurated.

    Once we've left absolutely everything that leavers claimed may or may not come true and some of it may be stupid. But we should leave and then judge it. Just as if there's an election and a party wins it they should be inaugurated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #3585
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    There were no lies on a bus.


    You may wish to expand on this claim.
    There's a man goin' 'round, takin' names
    And he decides who to free and who to blame

  16. #3586
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No my morality is that what the people voted it the biggest vote we've ever had should be enacted. I have no problems with revotes once the prior vote has been enacted. If people want to campaign to rejoin once we've left, then good luck to them. That's democracy.
    This is completely made up. I don't know if you buy into your own BS, but this is an argument the Tories invented to justify their stupidity. How about you go and find an actual definition of democracy that rules out revotes?

    Meanwhile, this is the new Britain:

    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #3587
    The British public's opinion on a second referendum is clear:

    When the sky above us fell
    We descended into hell
    Into kingdom come

  18. #3588
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No my morality is that what the people voted it the biggest vote we've ever had should be enacted. I have no problems with revotes once the prior vote has been enacted. If people want to campaign to rejoin once we've left, then good luck to them. That's democracy.
    Say, didn't you argue once in a while that "no government should be held hostage by decisions by a previous government"?

    And now you argue that a decision by a previous government should hold the current one hostage.

    I'm deeply impressed and you'll of course immediately begin to argue that this is something completely different.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  19. #3589
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    The British public's opinion on a second referendum is clear:

    The two outcomes in the questions are different.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #3590
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Say, didn't you argue once in a while that "no government should be held hostage by decisions by a previous government"?

    And now you argue that a decision by a previous government should hold the current one hostage.

    I'm deeply impressed and you'll of course immediately begin to argue that this is something completely different.
    Absolutely I did. No hostage though. This government was elected on an unequivocal mandate to implement the decision made in the referendum. Nothing has changed since then.

    If people at a future general election want to change course absolutely that would be fine. That's not what this government was elected to do though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #3591
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Absolutely I did. No hostage though. This government was elected on an unequivocal mandate to implement the decision made in the referendum.
    What. "Unequivocal"? I must've misread those election results. Those were far from an "unequivocal" statement, especially this snap election debacle of May's.

    And, by the way, governments and parties always promise a lot. Doesn't mean that promising to shoot yourself is something you should actually follow through just because you promised it.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  22. #3592
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Absolutely I did. No hostage though. This government was elected on an unequivocal mandate to implement the decision made in the referendum. Nothing has changed since then.

    If people at a future general election want to change course absolutely that would be fine. That's not what this government was elected to do though.
    There is no such thing. Stop making shit up. If the public doesn't like what a government does, it's free to punish the government in the next election.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  23. #3593
    The parties manifesto was unequivocal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  24. #3594
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    There is no such thing. Stop making shit up. If the public doesn't like what a government does, it's free to punish the government in the next election.
    100% agreed. In fact didn't I say that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #3595
    Party manifestos are not binding. Again, you invented out of thin air a new requirement for democracy and you did so only because it benefits your cause.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  26. #3596
    Never said they were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  27. #3597
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The parties manifesto was unequivocal.
    Wait, so you're telling us now that both parties promised to Leave?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  28. #3598
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Never said they were.
    Then why do you insist on this moronic notion that changing course is something that is not allowed to be done? You're making yourself look stupider by the second.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  29. #3599
    Then stop giving BS reasons for a BS position. Parliament has the full right to hold as many referenda as it wants on the same topic. Parliament has the full right to ignore as many referenda results as it wants. It might be bad politics, but it's not undemocratic. What is undemocratic is claiming that certain policies can't be reversed just because. Referenda don't have special constitutional status. May is free to make them have that status, but she has not (because, as you know, she's completely inept).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  30. #3600
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Wait, so you're telling us now that both parties promised to Leave?
    Yes I am tell you that both the Tories and the DUP which combined won a majority both promised to Leave.

    Indeed not only did they both do so, but so too did the main opposition party. Well over 80% of MPs were elected on manifestos pledging to respect the referendum result.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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