Brexit Begins

[Hazir]

In summary because it rides roughshot over the principle of consent and NIs right to self-determine its future, because they will be subject to laws that they had no shape in drafting or approving and because it could create an East/West border.

except for the fact that it is exactly what the vast majority of the people of NI have voted for. They are forced to leave the EU against their expressed will.

While at the same time your imperious government instates direct rule from westminster. Thus entirely disenfranchising the people of NI. Who by the way could easily retain their representation in the EU.

[Aimless]

In summary because it rides roughshot over the principle of consent and NIs right to self-determine its future, because they will be subject to laws that they had no shape in drafting or approving and because it could create an East/West border.

See multiple posts above explaining why this is either questionable or just nonsense (possibly a mix of both).

[Aimless]

That's fine and why I'm prepared to shrug my shoulders and walk away. Once you're willing to speak to us as equal partners then we can talk, meanwhile if you feel the need to build customs posts in Ireland then good luck to you.

If you believe in upholding a rules-based international order, and intend to honor your legal obligations, you will be required to implement checks at the Irish border. It is a consequence of your decisions.

[Aimless]

It was pointed out to me that Canada stopped formal talks with the UK about a future relationship a week ago. And that in the joint press conference with Raab the Canadian FM said many kind things but evaded any words on economic cooperation with the UK after Brexit.

Canada sees no reason to initiate talks until the outcome of the Brexit process is known, and they're in no hurry. There was an announcement recently that they would not roll over CETA for the UK's benefit in the event of NDB, especially not if the UK actually went ahead with the plan to unilaterally cut tariffs across the board.

[RandBlade]

If you believe in upholding a rules-based international order, and intend to honor your legal obligations, you will be required to implement checks at the Irish border. It is a consequence of your decisions.

No you don't that is a myth. Rules need to be maintained but checks don't need to be done at the border. Already the vast, vast majority of non-EU goods pass through borders unchecked.

[RandBlade]

except for the fact that it is exactly what the vast majority of the people of NI have voted for. They are forced to leave the EU against their expressed will.

While at the same time your imperious government instates direct rule from westminster. Thus entirely disenfranchising the people of NI. Who by the way could easily retain their representation in the EU.

The vast majority of the people of NI never voted for the backstop. As for direct rule that is only because Sinn Fein pulled the plug on Stormont years ago and it hasn't been reinstated yet.

Letting the people of NI retain their representation for as long as they are subject to the backstop would remove the undemocratic nature of the backstop and make it perfectly acceptable, I'm glad that you think that's OK. I would suggest letting the voters of NI keep their MEPs, obviously they would be unrepresented in the European Council once the UK leaves so I would suggest during the backstop that the NI Assembly - so currently Arlene Foster - gets a seat on the European Council in the interim.

Since this is just a temporary backstop apparently and you have no problems with representation that should be entirely reasonable.

[Khendraja'aro]

In summary because it rides roughshot over the principle of consent and NIs right to self-determine its future, because they will be subject to laws that they had no shape in drafting or approving and because it could create an East/West border.

Except that Brexit does the same thing and they actually voted against(!) Brexit.

Which makes Brexit even more illegal than the backstop.

You can‘t have it both ways.

[RandBlade]

Yes I can. If they don't like Brexit they can opt to leave the UK. And two wrongs don't make a right, just because Brexit creates problems doesn't mean continuing with those problems but reversed on a sectarian basis is the solution.

The spirit of the GFA was cross-community, cross-border compromise and treating each other as equals. The moment everyone wants to come to the table as equals and compromise then we can resume that solution.

The GFA was not based on the UK saying to Ireland and the Catholics "we're bigger than you so do as we say and you have no choice". It was based on mutual respect and partnership. The difference between the UK and EU minus the UK is smaller than the difference between the UK and Ireland. Just because size has been reversed doesn't mean the solution then is not the solution now. We act as equals and we compromise.

[Khendraja'aro]

Listen, you said the backstop was illegal. Your own logic mandates that Brexit is also illegal.

Obviously the law doesn't mean anything to you unless you get what you want.

And this is precisely why no one will trust you afterwards. This is also why we won't budge - we cannot trust you to keep to the law.

And two wrongs don't make a right

Wait, what? You obviously also don't realize that you just argued my point.

[LittleFuzzy]

That's fine and why I'm prepared to shrug my shoulders and walk away. Once you're willing to speak to us as equal partners then we can talk,

I never had a problem with the basic idea of Brexit. It's the total ineptitude with which you guys have been acting in the years since the referendum that have been a problem. But you are never going to be a more equal partner than while you are a member negotiating their exit. You are not the EU's equal in as a trading partner, nowhere near. Yes, you're a sovereign state. But you don't begin to have the mass or influence as the European bloc which you are determined to reduce ties with. This has been your chance to get the very best deal(s) you could and you've been doing nothing but screwing it up for well past the allotted time.

[Hazir]

The way they think they are more important than Ireland basically says it all; the have no idea of their lack of importance in the wider world. They were a big fish in a medium-sized pond. They are about to opt for fodder status in the oceans of the world.

[RandBlade]

I never had a problem with the basic idea of Brexit. It's the total ineptitude with which you guys have been acting in the years since the referendum that have been a problem. But you are never going to be a more equal partner than while you are a member negotiating their exit. You are not the EU's equal in as a trading partner, nowhere near. Yes, you're a sovereign state. But you don't begin to have the mass or influence as the European bloc which you are determined to reduce ties with. This has been your chance to get the very best deal(s) you could and you've been doing nothing but screwing it up for well past the allotted time.

Which is why I think the solution is to cut all cords and walk away. If the EU want to subjugate us in the backstop and say we have no choice because we are so small, then I think we have no choice but to back ourselves and walk away.

We can then talk properly while we're not bound to them. While we've not got a ticking clock towards exit day.

We need to look after ourselves for now. We can deal with them again later.

[RandBlade]

The way they think they are more important than Ireland basically says it all; the have no idea of their lack of importance in the wider world. They were a big fish in a medium-sized pond. They are about to opt for fodder status in the oceans of the world.

What part of "equals" means "more important than Ireland"?

[Hazir]

It's so funny you think you are either of the two.

[RandBlade]

It's funny you don't see any irony in suggesting it is wrong to treat people as equals.

Great history there when people aren't treated that way. Maybe you want bombs to start going off in Brussels?

[Khendraja'aro]

You are treated as an equal as long as you're a member. As soon as you are not a member anymore you're subject to the same rules as everyone else outside the bloc:

a) Size matters - is your market size comparable to the EU's? Then you can consider yourself an equal. Otherwise not so much.
b) Supply and demand - what is it that you have to offer that's unique? Is there something like that? No? Then your status is not increased.

Seriously, the way you're behaving is akin to Wesley Snipes throwing a tanter tantrum because he isn't seated next to Beyonce at a reception.

[Hazir]

It's funny you don't see any irony in suggesting it is wrong to treat people as equals.

Great history there when people aren't treated that way. Maybe you want bombs to start going off in Brussels?

My oh my, a huffing and a puffing like it s the good old time of steamboat gunships. And all we needed to make it happen was tell the little one he's not one of the big guys.

We don't need you to love us, we just need you to know your place.

[LittleFuzzy]

Which is why I think the solution is to cut all cords and walk away. If the EU want to subjugate us in the backstop and say we have no choice because we are so small,

They're not. They're saying you need to do a backstop now to preserve the rights you've guaranteed the Irish. Once you leave with no deal, THEN they'll "subjugate you" to a number of things much worse than the backstop and say you have no choice because you're so small. And at that point you guys will probably agree because you ARE so small and maintaining your regional autarky would be even worse.

We can then talk properly while we're not bound to them. While we've not got a ticking clock towards exit day.

You didn't really have one before because the rest of the EU was willing to bend over backwards giving you time to agree to a deal. You demonstrated it didn't matter, you were too divided (and stuck with your heads in the sand) to come to an internal agreement on any deal the EU could accept no matter how much time you were given.

We need to look after ourselves for now.

Too late. You can't look at anything with your heads up your rear ends.

We can deal with them again later.

Once you've made your position incalculably worse. Good job.

[RandBlade]

Seriously, the way you're behaving is akin to Wesley Snipes throwing a tanter tantrum because he isn't seated next to Beyonce at a reception.

I'll take that! Wesley Snipes is cool. Odd insult.

Though I don't follow celebrity gossip and know nothing about a temper tantrum if there was one.

My oh my, a huffing and a puffing like it s the good old time of steamboat gunships. And all we needed to make it happen was tell the little one he's not one of the big guys.

We don't need you to love us, we just need you to know your place.

I know our place. And its not under your boot.

They're not. They're saying you need to do a backstop now to preserve the rights you've guaranteed the Irish. Once you leave with no deal, THEN they'll "subjugate you" to a number of things much worse than the backstop and say you have no choice because you're so small. And at that point you guys will probably agree because you ARE so small and maintaining your regional autarky would be even worse

The backstop is unacceptable nonsense. I'll take our chances being independent.

You didn't really have one before because the rest of the EU was willing to bend over backwards giving you time to agree to a deal. You demonstrated it didn't matter, you were too divided (and stuck with your heads in the sand) to come to an internal agreement on any deal the EU could accept no matter how much time you were given.

A deal so long as we signed on the dotted line with their unacceptable backstop. No thanks.

Its not unreasonable, if there's no deal there is no backstop. If there is a deal we keep paying them money, we guarantee rights [we'll do that anyway] and we will have a transition in which to negotiate what happens on the Irish border as part of our future relationship negotiations. Which is logical. Insisting on a backstop or no deal including no backstop is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Once you've made your position incalculably worse. Good job.

Better to be in a worse position but free.

[Hazir]

The backstop actually precedes your silly referendum and the latter is no excuse under international law to absolve you of your obligations.

[RandBlade]

No it doesn't.

If there was a backstop that preceded the referendum we wouldn't be arguing over it because it would still apply.

[Hazir]

No it doesn't.

If there was a backstop that preceded the referendum we wouldn't be arguing over it because it would still apply.

It does still apply. We just don't trust you with it.

And so far you are only proving us right.

[RandBlade]

What backstop exists currently?

[Khendraja'aro]

I'll take that! Wesley Snipes is cool. Odd insult.

He's also a has-been and relegated to the B to D-list in Hollywood. Pretty much all his movies since the last Blade were direct-to-video.

[Loki]

Little Englanders indeed.

Twitter Link

[Hazir]

Little Englanders indeed.

Twitter Link

The amazing thing is that in the middle of the biggest constitutional crisis since... well basically since Dutch rule in London, the one thing the Conservative Party is concerned with is winning the next elections.

That bunch is so self-serving it re-defines self-serving behavior.

[RandBlade]

The amazing thing is that in the middle of the biggest constitutional crisis since... well basically since Dutch rule in London, the one thing the Conservative Party is concerned with is winning the next elections.

That bunch is so self-serving it re-defines self-serving behavior.

It is the most important thing for the country, to ensure that Corbyn doesn't win. Corbyn is an unreformed Marxist whose Shadow Chancellor literally wants to "smash the capitalist system" and they want to make the UK like Venezuela.

Loki - why are you surprised? Of course Brexit is more important than keeping Scotland etc if they don't want to stay with us. They get to control their own destiny, we get to control ours, its a pretty fundamental principle.

[Hazir]

You have dealt with Labour governments before. Brexit can not be undone.

[RandBlade]

There's a difference between Labour and full on Marxist. Brexit can be undone, I don't think we will but we could always apply to rejoin.

[Steely Glint]

It is the most important thing for the country, to ensure that Corbyn doesn't win. Corbyn is an unreformed Marxist whose Shadow Chancellor literally wants to "smash the capitalist system" and they want to make the UK like Venezuela.

If that's the case, why is he pushing so hard for no-deal when the only plausible way for Corbyn to get in right now is if there's a motion of non-confidence followed by a general election, and the only way that could happen is if Remainer Tories vote against the government in one because they're so dismayed by the idea of leaving with no-deal?

If you actually believed that about Corbyn you'd think Boris was being impossibly irresponsible right now.

Loki - why are you surprised? Of course Brexit is more important than keeping Scotland etc if they don't want to stay with us. They get to control their own destiny, we get to control ours, its a pretty fundamental principle.

For god's sake. Are you pretending to be stupid, or are you actually this dense? If the former, why?

The idea is that Scotland et al would only want to leave because of Brexit. Not that they're sat there wishing they could leave but us being in the EU is the only thing stopping them.