Brexit Begins

[Unheard Of]

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[Aimless]

The only problem is that No Deal is actually one of the predictable outcomes, even though many dismissed the possibility out of hand prior to—and for long after—the referendum.

[Hazir]

The only problem is that No Deal is actually one of the predictable outcomes, even though many dismissed the possibility out of hand prior to—and for long after—the referendum.

Actually both sides (in the UK) are equally annoying. On the one hand the Leavers with their rejection of the WA, telling us they want a deal, but are incapable of telling us what they actually want in stead that is actually compatible with their red lines and our laws. But also the Remainers on the other hand who somehow don't understand that to avoid no deal you actually have to come up with an alternative other than 'I don't want this no deal'

[Hazir]

By the way it makes me all think so much of Turkey. Is this a genetic thing you think ?

[LittleFuzzy]

Don't you have some creeping authoritarianism to normalise in your own country?

It's the only way this is going to get resolved, Steely. You and others may think and hope that if a "no deal Brexit" just looms close enough that eventually your MPs will stampede into revoking. You may even be right. . . for now. But that'll end up just another form of kicking the deadline back a bit and demands for Brexit will keep coming and your hopelessly confused and deadlocked voting public will keep producing large pluralities or small majorities in favor of it so we'll find ourselves living out this spectacle anew. Your country can't and won't save itself the grief so at least save the rest of Europe from you guys and get out already.

[RandBlade]

"You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

[Hazir]

It's the only way this is going to get resolved, Steely. You and others may think and hope that if a "no deal Brexit" just looms close enough that eventually your MPs will stampede into revoking. You may even be right. . . for now. But that'll end up just another form of kicking the deadline back a bit and demands for Brexit will keep coming and your hopelessly confused and deadlocked voting public will keep producing large pluralities or small majorities in favor of it so we'll find ourselves living out this spectacle anew. Your country can't and won't save itself the grief so at least save the rest of Europe from you guys and get out already.

It's very very tempting to just agree with you. However, it's not 100% true that if remainers manage to enforce a revoke we'll just be kicking the can a bit further along the road. The ECJ ruling on article 50 has created a situation in which revoking notification really means that it's over and out for Brexit on the basis of the 2016 referendum. For Brexit Mark 2.0 the Brexiteers would have to somehow coble together a positive majority for Brexit. Given that there are no majorities for anything, I don't really see a Brexit-vote happen again. That would still leave a country in turmoil, and I doubt we in the EU would enjoy having that country as a member very much.

[Hazir]

"You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately... Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!"

Is that for Boris?

[Loki]

Nothing to see here.

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[Aimless]

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I invite you to consider the character of these... forkers

[Steely Glint]

It's the only way this is going to get resolved, Steely. You and others may think and hope that if a "no deal Brexit" just looms close enough that eventually your MPs will stampede into revoking. You may even be right. . . for now. But that'll end up just another form of kicking the deadline back a bit and demands for Brexit will keep coming and your hopelessly confused and deadlocked voting public will keep producing large pluralities or small majorities in favor of it so we'll find ourselves living out this spectacle anew. Your country can't and won't save itself the grief so at least save the rest of Europe from you guys and get out already.

There are in fact plenty of solutions short of revoking Brexit entirely - customs union etc. It's only an unsolvable problem if you're wedded to all the bullshit leavers have claimed over there years trying to convince everyone that Brexit was a good idea.

[RandBlade]

Is that for Boris?

I deliberately left the quote without context or attribution (though it's a very famous quote) because it oddly enough works for a number of people or groups depending upon your own attitude: our MPs in Parliament, the UK in the EU etc.

[RandBlade]

I invite you to consider the character of these... forkers

You seem to have missed the fact with all the concocted drama that Parliament isn't being prorogued to stop Brexit being debated. Proroguation as suggested and discussed has not occurred and now due to yesterday can't occur.

The suggestion, rejected, which those quotes discuss was a proposed proroguation from 4 September to 31 October with Parliament next sitting in November after we'd left. That isn't happening.

All that is happening is a bog standard State Opening of Parliament which is long overdue.

Parliament isn't being shut down for months as suggested until it is too late, for one thing it isn't sitting next week and it only takes 24h to conduct a VONC. It is being prorogued for just 4 sitting days, signposted in advance, as always occurs with a State Opening of Parliament.

Parliament has had 3.5 years to debate Brexit. It has had six months of extension to debate it. It has all of next week and then weeks afterwards before Halloween. To cry foul over 4 days is absurd hyperbole.

[RandBlade]

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Hyperbolic nonsense. Two factual differences to what is being claimed that a "Barrister" should know.

1: Parliament voted to make No Deal the legal default when it invoked Article 50, Parliament hasn't voted to make the Eurozone the legal default.
2: Parliament isn't being shut down to force this, Parliament is losing just 4 days after 3 and a half years and still has about 20 sitting days to go. It can act in that time.

[Aimless]

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[RandBlade]

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Not true, Parliamentary scrutiny can still occur next week [heck a VONC could be tabled next week] and after proroguation too.

I won't quote all the other Tweets as it takes a lot of space but to reply to them by numbers.

7: Yes that happens every single year [except last year] between openings of Parliament. This current Parliament that is coming to an end now and being opened with the overdue State Opening of Parliament is the longest-running Parliament in over 400 years. Funny how people [rightly] said May was trying to avoid Parliamentary scrutiny by avoiding having to hold a Queen's Speech, but Boris is supposedly trying to avoid Parliamentary scrutiny. Go figure.

9: Immaterial. Parliament is losing 4 sitting days before having a Queen's Speech which Boris is obliged constitutionally to do before introducing any part of his domestic agenda. Constitutionally the executive shouldn't introduce any bills that weren't mentioned in the Queen's Speech so Boris without holding one is tethered to what May announced more than 2 years ago. All PM's hold a Queen's Speech after taking office, and all PM's are supposed to have one every year and May was the only PM in hundreds of years to cancel one altogether outside of World Wars.

12: Yes it is entirely normal. A State Opening of Parliament is very, very normal. Parliament is still sitting before and after its State Opening as standard with only 4 days lost, as standard.

[RandBlade]

Pah the idea Parliament "may have" voted to cancel Conference recess is the most absurd suggestion yet. Conferences are part of our unwritten constitution that holds parties to account too.

Not only has Parliament had 3.5 years, not only has Parliament had six months since extension, but Parliament voted only recently to have a six week holiday. They literally voted to go on holiday for almost half the amount of time remaining. As multiple of your Tweets have pointed out recesses are voted for and the current six week summer holiday that Parliament is on was voted for by MPs.

If Parliamentarians wanted to cancel the 3 week recess for Conferences where parties get held to account by their own members and speeches, but didn't want to cancel their 6 week summer holiday then that's a rather bizarre set of priorities.

[RandBlade]

An unelected Prime Minister suspending parliament with no general election in order to force through a version of Brexit that had previously sworn blind would never happen is a lot of things, normal isn't one of them.

You're right that wouldn't be normal.

There are other words to describe what you are saying: fictional, a myth but reality isn't one of them.

Parliament could vote to revoke next week if it wanted to. Parliament could vote to VONC Boris next week if it wanted to. Nothing is forced through yet.

[Aimless]

but Parliament voted only recently to have a six week holiday. They literally voted to go on holiday for almost half the amount of time remaining. As multiple of your Tweets have pointed out recesses are voted for and the current six week summer holiday that Parliament is on was voted for by MPs.

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[RandBlade]

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So? That happens every year during proroguation anyway. And that other business isn't the sort of scrutiny of Brexit we are discussing. We are at the stage with that already that would be while the Commons is sitting.

As indeed any of your 'can be done during recess' stuff can be done now.

[Aimless]

So? That happens every year during proroguation anyway.

This year is not like every other year, nor is this month like every other month--as you very well know. Why you insist on pretending as if you do not know this--and expect us to play along with your weird performance--is beyond me, but it is in keeping with your Lewkowskian transition I suppose. Johnson's intent is clear, and that intent makes this move a scandalous affront to British democracy.

[Aimless]

And, because you clearly did not read this the first time around:

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[Steely Glint]

Parliament could vote to revoke next week if it wanted to.

There is no longer enough time to get that or anything else through parliament, except a VONC, which is, as you are perfectly well aware, the entire point of the exercise.

[Hazir]

There is no longer enough time to get that or anything else through parliament, except a VONC, which is, as you are perfectly well aware, the entire point of the exercise.

Well, on the other hand, he's not entirely wrong. No matter how dirty the games played by the Buffoon are, (half-)Remainers have nobody but themselves to blame.

There was no specific reason to wait for the Buffoon to get into 10DS to legislate against a no-deal Brexit (within the limits of article 50). There was every reason not to suspend for summer with the Brexshit storm going on.
There were very strong arguments to hit the Buffoon with a vote of no confidence the first time he showed his face in the House after getting appointed by Elizabeth II. The list of things the opponents of the Buffoon could have done goes on and on and on. Yet, they were just sitting on their hands and/or fighting over who was going to lead the charge and what the objective was going to be.

The Buffoon's 4 day haircut may turn out to be fatal, but only because nobody fucking did anything before 4 days became essential.

Which is why I am so in favor of Brexit, any Brexit, and as soon as possible.

[Aimless]

The opposition doesn't simply consist of "remainers". There are NDB proponents in both parties. Much of the "opposition" consists of Labour MPs who explicitly want to leave the EU, but not without a deal, or with a deal negotiated by Tories. There is no position or course of action actual Remain/Revoke MPs could've taken that would realistically have prevented the rejection of the deal, or Johnson's appointment. Even if they hadn't given both his and May's corrupt govts the benefit of the doubt at several critical moments.

[Hazir]

The opposition doesn't simply consist of "remainers". There are NDB proponents in both parties. Much of the "opposition" consists of Labour MPs who explicitly want to leave the EU, but not without a deal, or with a deal negotiated by Tories. There is no position or course of action actual Remain/Revoke MPs could've taken that would realistically have prevented the rejection of the deal, or Johnson's appointment. Even if they hadn't given both his and May's corrupt govts the benefit of the doubt at several critical moments.

But that's only because they can't actually formulate what it is they want rather than what they don't want.

I know the Brits don't like to consider it, but basically this is the same situation as with the Greeks and their referendum. In both cases they were very much in favor of having their cake and eat it, and in both cases they were trying to get a third choice where only a yes or a no were on the menu. In the end the Greeks understood what was in their best interest and stopped horsing around. The Brits are still horsing around, but in their case the clock is ticking.

[Aimless]

Several contingents in British politics have formulated what they do want. It is only British political leadership as a whole that does not know what "it" wants—its constituent parts do. Some want no deal, others prefer (or have until recently indicated that they prefer) the deal on the table, yet others prefer their own deal that is substantially different from the one that evolved from the Tories' & UKIP's red lines. Wrt the domestic perspective, some want the voters to be given a chance to choose between no deal, the deal on the table, and a cancelation of Brexit. Some even want parliament to not be impeded in its job of scrutinizing the govt's actions but, at the end of the day, this is no longer in the hands of outright remainers/revokers; the time when their actions could've had a substantial impact on the outcome of this bizarre farce is long past, save for a few small procedurally interesting twists.

[Hazir]

Several contingents in British politics have formulated what they do want. It is only British political leadership as a whole that does not know what "it" wants—its constituent parts do. Some want no deal, others prefer (or have until recently indicated that they prefer) the deal on the table, yet others prefer their own deal that is substantially different from the one that evolved from the Tories' & UKIP's red lines. Wrt the domestic perspective, some want the voters to be given a chance to choose between no deal, the deal on the table, and a cancelation of Brexit. Some even want parliament to not be impeded in its job of scrutinizing the govt's actions but, at the end of the day, this is no longer in the hands of outright remainers/revokers; the time when their actions could've had a substantial impact on the outcome of this bizarre farce is long past, save for a few small procedurally interesting twists.

As you know I am in Turkey regularly and I have followed its politics closely for well over 2 decades. For the last decade or so about half of Turks don't want to be ruled by the AKP or more specifically Erdogan. Yet, they are ruled by the AKP and Erdogan, with all their attempts to change that remaining fruitless. And untill recently they really really never got it; how was it possible that Turks wouldn't elect their most eligible candidates over Erdogan. And there really were some people amongs those alternatives who could have been good presidents. But all these great people fighting eachother without any fail ended in Erdogan coming out on top. That is, untill the opposition realized that they stood no chance of winning before they agreed upon a common candidate. Do I need to remind you what happened at the municipal elections recently?

I used Remainers as a shorthand for everybody not dead set on Brexit regardless of damage done. It is not important what every faction in that group individually wants. It only is relevant if they unite on a common goal. When they don't it will be whatever the present occupant of 10DS wants it to be.

Finally I would like to remind you that it's not the UK that has a problem with the EU and the way it's political class tells crass lies about it. Your country has had a referendum on the EURO which beats the Brexit referendum hands down. Boris may have lied through his teeth during the campaing, but Brexit at least was a choice that could be delivered. Your EURO referendum was a referendum that actually legally can not deliver on the decision of your voters without leaving the EU.

[Hazir]

I have to ask you RandBlade; do you like being responsible for destroying the United Kingdom? How does it feel to be the Jacobin whose only reaction to getting things his way is moving the goal posts? I mean, where does this lust for destruction come from?

[Khendraja'aro]

I have to ask you RandBlade; do you like being responsible for destroying the United Kingdom? How does it feel to be the Jacobin whose only reaction to getting things his way is moving the goal posts? I mean, where does this lust for destruction come from?

He's probably thinking that he's sticking it "to the man" or something when in reality he'll be the one left holding the bag.

He just hasn't let himself realize that yet. And probably never will - the power of denial is a pretty strong thing, just like after WW2 we only had rescuers of Jews and the rest was coerced by the Nazis to join up.