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Thread: Brexit Begins

  1. #4411
    Boris Johnson, July 2019:

    "under no circumstances, whatever happens, will I allow the EU or anyone else to create any kind of division down the Irish Sea"

    I was also under the impression May's deal was hated for many, many other reasons; like defense cooperation and ECJ involvement. Not aware of any other changes.

    How odd.

  2. #4412
    Genuinely can't stop laughing at seeing Johnson rapidly end up right where May started of course, parliament must be given time to debate this, and the DUP isn't on board. Legally, this proposal means NI would not be in the same customs territory as the UK, so I can see why the DUP might be disinclined to accept it. Kinda funny that the solution to the backstop was for the UK to simply agree to the things that would make the backstop less necessary
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  3. #4413
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    EU should say tonight/tomorrow "no more extensions, get this signed off now".
    Is this the same EU that supposed to be so terrified of the prospect of no deal and Johnson's steely-eyed glare that they were going to offer any concessions to the UK to avoid it?
    I'll lend you my essence for your rusted throne, and you could bring back the light to the last home of civilisation without which I'm gone
    So take this godsoul to bring forth a new dawn, I'll forgive the death you've earned, the cities you've burned, the lessons we've learned
    For all that remains, just sacrifice me. I'll hide away in a castle on the sea.

  4. #4414
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Backstop gone! Good deal, lets get this over and done with now.

    EU should say tonight/tomorrow "no more extensions, get this signed off now".

    No more dicking around in Parliament.
    You realize that the backstop was of your own design because you did not want a border down the Irish Sea? I.e. precisely what the new deal is about?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  5. #4415
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Backstop gone! Good deal, lets get this over and done with now.

    EU should say tonight/tomorrow "no more extensions, get this signed off now".

    No more dicking around in Parliament.
    1. The addendum to the WA actually is the original backstop
    2. The EU isn't there to do the Brexitards job for them.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  6. #4416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Is this the same EU that supposed to be so terrified of the prospect of no deal and Johnson's steely-eyed glare that they were going to offer any concessions to the UK to avoid it?
    Well, you scared us into taking over NI. So, Boris' tactics paid off, I guess.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  7. #4417
    A fitting punishment.
    I'll lend you my essence for your rusted throne, and you could bring back the light to the last home of civilisation without which I'm gone
    So take this godsoul to bring forth a new dawn, I'll forgive the death you've earned, the cities you've burned, the lessons we've learned
    For all that remains, just sacrifice me. I'll hide away in a castle on the sea.

  8. #4418
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Parliament is the basis of your democracy. It's amazing how quickly you and Lewk turned on the institutions that keep your countries from descending into strongman rule.
    I have no problem with Parliament as an institution. I have a problem with Members of Parliament who go against what they were elected on. At the last election over 80% of MPs and over 80% of votes cast were done so on manifestos pledging to respect the referendum and ruling out remaining or a second referendum. Instead MPs have spent the last few years acting like idiots and trying to do everything to frustrate what they promised to respect. We have many MPs refusing to vote for any form of Brexit and saying they will only vote to remain either by a second referendum or even without one - but their election materials said the exact opposite.

    That disrespects the institution they were elected to serve and they should be held to account by voters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #4419
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Is this the same EU that supposed to be so terrified of the prospect of no deal and Johnson's steely-eyed glare that they were going to offer any concessions to the UK to avoid it?
    They've made major concessions, this is a massively improved offer than May ever had.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #4420
    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    Boris Johnson, July 2019:

    "under no circumstances, whatever happens, will I allow the EU or anyone else to create any kind of division down the Irish Sea"

    I was also under the impression May's deal was hated for many, many other reasons; like defense cooperation and ECJ involvement. Not aware of any other changes.

    How odd.
    May's deal was hated for the undemocratic backstop, that's gone now. NI will leave the EU and remain de jure a fully fledged part of the UK and de facto will enjoy all the benefits of leaving that GB has [which wasn't on offer with what May started with]. NI will also de facto get all the benefits of EU SM and CU membership too - they will literally get their cake and eat it. It is a fantastic best of both worlds for NI. Furthermore decision making for the future of NI will be devolved to NI's own elected Assembly - that was never on offer in May's negotiations. We were told under May that there could be no unilateral exit but if in the future for some reason NI decides it doesn't like its special arrangements (which I don't think they will as it is a great deal for them) then they will be able to do with a simple majority in Stormont.

    NI's future under May was being annexed to Brussels. Under Boris it is to be determined in Belfast. Quite appropriate, very democratic!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #4421
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Genuinely can't stop laughing at seeing Johnson rapidly end up right where May started of course, parliament must be given time to debate this, and the DUP isn't on board. Legally, this proposal means NI would not be in the same customs territory as the UK, so I can see why the DUP might be disinclined to accept it. Kinda funny that the solution to the backstop was for the UK to simply agree to the things that would make the backstop less necessary
    Have you read the deal? You're 100% wrong, legally this proposal means NI will be in the same customs territory as the UK. That is explicitly written into the agreement.
    Quote Originally Posted by The text of the deal
    “Article 4 - Customs Territory of the United Kingdom

    Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom.

    Accordingly, nothing in this Protocol shall prevent the United Kingdom from including Northern Ireland in the territorial scope of any agreements it may conclude with third countries, provided that those agreements do not prejudice the application of this Protocol.

    In particular, nothing in this Protocol shall prevent the United Kingdom from concluding agreements with a third country that grant goods produced in Northern Ireland preferential access to that country’s market on the same terms as goods produced in other parts of the United Kingdom.

    Nothing in this Protocol shall prevent the United Kingdom from including Northern Ireland in the territorial scope of its Schedules of Concessions annexed to the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade 1994.”
    Do you have the good grace to admit you were wrong in writing "Legally, this proposal means NI would not be in the same customs territory as the UK" when the text literally says "Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  12. #4422
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    Randy. LOL. Seems like you didn't get any further than that statement. If you would have bothered to have read on you'd have known that the UK takes on so many obligations that the legal status of the provinces is devoid of any real meaning. Even oversight over the obligations that the UK takes on is attributed to the EU.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  13. #4423
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Do you have the good grace to admit you were wrong in writing "Legally, this proposal means NI would not be in the same customs territory as the UK" when the text literally says "Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom"?
    Who cares what the text states? It's the de facto conditions which are relevant. The blurb is just there so BoJo can save face.

    Or do you actually think that your Queen still holds real political power? I mean, legally she's the head of state...
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  14. #4424
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    They've made major concessions, this is a massively improved offer than May ever had.
    The biggest concession we made was agreeing to the NI having a say in such a way that the unionists will never have the means to end the arrangement for northern Ireland.

    Big concession indeed.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  15. #4425
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Who cares what the text states? It's the de facto conditions which are relevant. The blurb is just there so BoJo can save face.

    Or do you actually think that your Queen still holds real political power? I mean, legally she's the head of state...
    Yes she is legally the head of state and if Aimless said that legally the UK was a republic because the head of state was devoid of de facto power I'd say that was wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    The biggest concession we made was agreeing to the NI having a say in such a way that the unionists will never have the means to end the arrangement for northern Ireland.

    Big concession indeed.
    For me it was a major concession yes. Under May there was no unilateral exit even if a majority of Stormont was opposed to the arrangements. Even if the voters in NI wanted out they had no exit. Now if a simple majority of NI's elected chamber wants the arrangements to continue they continue, if a simple majority wants it to end it ends. I have no love for the DUP, if they want the arrangements to end they should get a majority to agree with it. I see no reason to override a majority of Stormont and see no reason why I should want that.

    The decision will be made in Belfast. Not my problem, their votes, their choice. That's democracy and I am content with that. We have agreed to devolve the subject to their elected assembly, that is fine by me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #4426
    Interesting that Nobel Peace Prize Winner Lord David Trimble agrees with me again. He opposed May's deal for the same reason I did, he backs Boris's deal for the same reason I do. Boris's deal is much improved on May's.

    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...-38607335.html
    ‘Yesterday’s agreement is a great step forward. Whilst, previously, the people of Northern Ireland were to have an agreement imposed on them, now we have a mechanism for the consent of the people of Northern Ireland. This is fully in accordance with the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement.

    What we now want to see is for the DUP and Sinn Fein to act together to bring the Good Friday Agreement back to life. This is not the time to be looking for excuses not to implement either the Good Friday Agreement or the new deal.’
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  17. #4427
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    Hey Randy, if I take a brick and put it in a box can I sell it to you as an iPad Pro? What happened the last few days was giving up Northern Ireland to the EU. It made it impossible for the Unionist in NI to ever move NI out of this arrangement by voting against it. What it also does is creating a situation in which every four years the question can be legitimately asked: 'doesn't it make sense to simply have a border poll?". It is for a reason that the DUP hate this deal, and probably even a lot more than the old one. For us the 'concession' is that we made it possible for our EU citizens in NI to have the DUP over a barrel.

    Congratulations. The other day I read a description of De Pfeffel as the only man who could go into a carpet shop and accidentally talk the price for a carpet up. At the time I thought it was funny, today I think it's true.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  18. #4428
    If NI votes to be part of Ireland or part of the EU then NI votes that way and I am cool with it. I've never been against NI voting to determine its future.

    Unionists form a majority of NI's population and even under Proportional Representation if 100% of Unionist voted for parties pledging to end these arrangements then the arrangements would end after the notice period. I'm fine with that.

    I am and always have been a democrat. However Stormont votes is up to the voters of Northern Ireland and I respect their choice. It is their choice going forwards not mine and not yours.

    I couldn't care less if the DUP hate this. The DUP opposed the Belfast Agreement (Good Friday Agreement) in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  19. #4429
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    Seems like the Northern Ireland surrender Act isn't going to be passed any time soon.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  20. #4430
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Also looks like BoJo is courting jail time considering the attitude he showed.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  21. #4431
    Been delayed a couple of days.

    Lets see how happy the EU are to grant a delay to encourage more of this nonsense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #4432
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Been delayed a couple of days.

    Lets see how happy the EU are to grant a delay to encourage more of this nonsense.
    Oh, we'll happily grant you an extension so that you may continue to shoot yourself in both feet.

    After all, we're intelligent enough to see that BoJo would only be too happy about that. As we're not the villains in that story we won't give you an inch to allow you to paint us as such.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  23. #4433
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    And now he's trying to get his way by using a technicality.

    Seriously, this guy.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  24. #4434
    Clever and completely honest and transparent letters Boris sent today. Complied with every letter of the Benn Act and put his opinion succinctly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #4435
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Clever and completely honest and transparent letters Boris sent today. Complied with every letter of the Benn Act and put his opinion succinctly.
    A problem is that his council said something different in court last week.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  26. #4436
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    And also courts usually don't take it too kindly if you try to make an endrun around the rules.

    Furthermore, the Benn Act states in no uncertain terms that:

    The Prime Minister must seek to obtain from the European Council an extension of the period under Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union[...]
    If the missing signature made his request invalid then he did not comply with the law.

    In case you don't understand it: It's like a law saying that you need to get a replacement part for your car immediately after an inspection. You then will not have much chance in court arguing that you wanted to get this replacement part but because you didn't pay for it, you actually didn't get it and that it's not your fault considering that you did not get it for free.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  27. #4437
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    A problem is that his council said something different in court last week.
    His counsel said that he would follow the law, he followed the law.

    If the court thinks differently the case will resume tomorrow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #4438
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    And also courts usually don't take it too kindly if you try to make an endrun around the rules.

    Furthermore, the Benn Act states in no uncertain terms that:

    If the missing signature made his request invalid then he did not comply with the law.

    In case you don't understand it: It's like a law saying that you need to get a replacement part for your car immediately after an inspection. You then will not have much chance in court arguing that you wanted to get this replacement part but because you didn't pay for it, you actually didn't get it and that it's not your fault considering that you did not get it for free.
    Two faults in what you wrote.

    Firstly the Benn Act states in no uncertain terms that: "The Prime Minister must seek to obtain from the European Council an extension of the period under Article 50(3) of the Treaty on the European Union by [...]" - the word "by" is quite critical and it is noteworthy that you dropped it. He followed everything that followed the word "by" which were his obligations.

    Secondly the missing signature did not make his request invalid for three reasons: A) it was signed electronically, the request was sent via email and the law says the contractual emails are as good as a signature and B) Tusk has confirmed and accepted receipt of the request as valid and C) Boris's signed letters confirm the request as valid and acknowledge the Council may wish to convene etc to discuss the request.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  29. #4439
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    His counsel said that he would follow the law, he followed the law.

    If the court thinks differently the case will resume tomorrow.
    Not signing indeed is irrelevant. Though De Pfeffel no doubt is going to use it as if it makes a real difference.

    The Court of Sessions actually was quite specific in the decision to postpone its verdict ; attempts to srlf-sabotage while upholding the letter of the law was not acceptable.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  30. #4440
    Even most of his firmest critics have been clear that what Boris did was entirely legal. It would take a vexatious litigant to say otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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